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The big question in my mind is what constitutes foundation. It seems that Nick believes it was in place before the earth was created (correct me if I'm wrong). While I would tend to believe that you would build a foundation on the formless and void earth, which I would take to mean the setting in place of all the items necessary to support life with the very first being light with that meaning far more than just illumination actually including the essence of life itself.
Just my opinion – Wm
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2009,09:53) Hi LU,
Yes in the context of VISIBLE CREATION.
But there was a timeless beginning before that in which the world was formless and void.
Nick,
What verse states that the world has existed eternally?
WmHi ST,
You misunderstand.
But Genesis 1 was not the beginning of our God who has no beginning, nor of heaven nor of the angels.
Our God is time less and time only has meaning in the visible creation.It is just the beginning of visible creation and the earth was formless and void at that stage according to Gen1
Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.Psalm 104:5
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.Isaiah 51:13
And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?And scripture says of the SON of God
Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2009,10:38) Hi ST,
You misunderstand.
But Genesis 1 was not the beginning of our God who has no beginning, nor of heaven nor of the angels.
Our God is time less and time only has meaning in the visible creation.I agree that the Father is timeless but I believe the Son had a beginning. I also believe that the spiritual realm existed prior to creation.
Quote
It is just the beginning of visible creation and the earth was formless and void at that stage according to Gen1
I agree but what you call “beginning of visible creation” I call laying the foundation of the worldQuote
Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.Psalm 104:5
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.Isaiah 51:13
And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?And scripture says of the SON of God
Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.My opinion – Wm
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2009,22:53) Hi LU,
Yes in the context of VISIBLE CREATION.
But there was a timeless beginning before that in which the world was formless and void.
Hi Nick,
I think that it is true that the creation began before day one (in an elementary formless way) but it was still not formed and there was no life except God existed. I agree with William/Seekingtruth that the foundation was still being laid after day one.Let's look at Gen 1 and compare it to Prov 8 and see if the light of day one was there when the foundations were still being laid.
Gen 1:1-11
a In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9 Then God said, ” Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
NASUProv 8:27-31
27 “When He established the heavens, I was there,
(Light was there also)
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
(Light was there also)
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men.
NASUI see here in Proverbs 8 that the foundations of the earth were marked out after day 1 and after the seas were gathered and dry land appeared.
The Bible makes no mention of life (angels) existing before time except God's life. The heavens were filled within six days and would include the angels at that time. IMO The angels did not have a revolt against God till after the six days of creation because everything was considered “good” when God rested on day seven.
Gen 1:31
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
NASUSo, I believe that “laying the foundations of the earth” included gathering the waters into seas and the dry land appearing.
Kathi
Hi Nick,
Thanks!
I had the idea to revisit this verse today and I realized something interesting.This is a lamentation that some scholars think is speaking about satan:
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13″You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14″You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15″You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16″By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.If this indeed speaks of satan before he sinned, it is placing him in the garden of Eden and therefore his sin took place after Eden was created which was after the six days of creation that Genesis speaks about. The NET Bible has some added words and gives a slightly different picture though.
LUQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2009,04:10) Hi LU,
Good points.
The light had to be separated from the darkness.
What Nick is really saying is that light was already present (there, with the darkness) before it was called out to be on it's own.Is this correct, Nick?
Hi LU,
How do you come to this understanding?
Eart seems to have been his domain-the god of the earth.He is the prince of darkness who wanders the earth.
God wanted light to shine again in this domain of darknessTo all…………> Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the Prince of Tyrus,, Thus saith the LORD GOD, Because thine heart is lifted up. and thou saith, I sit in the seat of GOD, in the midest of the Seas, yet thou art a (MAN) and not GOD, though thou set thine Heart as the Heart of GOD:
Now notice verse 3 Behold thou art wiser than Daniel; . This shows that Daniel already existed when this was said and it was talking about the Prince of Tyrus, Not some Satan being who who existed before Him. IMO
peace…………………………gene
Hi LU,
Matthew 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Luke 1:79
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.Quote (Gene @ Mar. 01 2009,00:27) To all…………> Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the Prince of Tyrus,, Thus saith the LORD GOD, Because thine heart is lifted up. and thou saith, I sit in the seat of GOD, in the midest of the Seas, yet thou art a (MAN) and not GOD, though thou set thine Heart as the Heart of GOD: Now notice verse 3 Behold thou art wiser than Daniel; . This shows that Daniel already existed when this was said and it was talking about the Prince of Tyrus, Not some Satan being who who existed before Him. IMO
peace…………………………gene
Hi Gene,
You are right, the King of Tyre is the topic of this chapter in Ezekial and how he is compared to someone in the Garden of Eden. Some commentaries that I have read suggest it reflects the fall of satan as in this commentary:Ezek 28:7-11
Some early Church Fathers interpreted this section as having ultimate reference to the fall of Satan or the Antichrist (cf. Isa 14:4-20). This view is also held by some evangelical groups today.
(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright  1962 by Moody Press)Others say that it refers to Adam. It is confusing. Some versions indicate that the cherub in the garden sinned and some versions indicate that the cherub was with the one who sinned in the garden. I really do not know. It doesn't really matter a whole lot. Satan was created during the six days of creation that was the point that I was trying to make anyway. We know that both Adam and Satan sinned but before that they had not sinned and were not created sinful. They both wanted to be like the Most High.
LU
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2009,03:20) Hi LU,
Matthew 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Luke 1:79
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Hi Nick,
There are many passages that refer to the light as the Messiah. He is the light, He gives the light.Luke 1:78-79
With which the Sunrise from on high will visit us,
79 TO SHINE UPON THOSE WHO SIT IN DARKNESS AND THE SHADOW OF DEATH,
To guide our feet into the way of peace.”
NASUIsa 60:19-20
19 “No longer will you have the sun for light by day,
Nor for brightness will the moon give you light;
But you will have theLORD for an everlasting light,
And your God for your glory.
20 “Your sun will no longer set,
Nor will your moon wane;
For you will have the LORD for an everlasting light,
NASUMal 4:1-3
2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.
NASUThanks for discussing this with me Nick and William. I appreciate you both.
KathiLU……….Does the bible say ADAM Himself sinned or that sin (entered in through) Him, the first place we see sin mentioned was in the case of Cain, and before he sinned God told Him sin was at His Door and He must master it. It would be interesting to get the clarity on this. The question was did Adam Himself sin, seeing the eyes of both Him and Eve were closed to the point they didn't even know they were naked, Even when GOD cursed the Ground , He said it was cursed for their Sake. It appears that made it Harder for the both to live , but that was for thier Good to show them what Evil really consists of, so they could grow to Hate it. But the first to really sin i believe was Cain, who then was marked. Maybe as what identifies what sin is, it works death. (this maybe speculation on my part). IMO
love and peace to you and yours……………………………gene
John 1:8 (New International Version)
8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
Jesus is the light of the world, but is he THE light? John seems to think that he is a witness of the light, but he is not the light himself. Kathi, doesn't this go directly against your theory? I dunno….. It's just something I came accross and thought I would add here for what it is worth. I'm not as invested in the idea, so I'm sure you have already contemplated this scripture.
Hi not3,
This of course refers to John the Baptist.
Jn1
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
But the Light that came into the world is surely God visiting His people in the vessel of the Son.
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