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Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2011,00:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,12:43) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,19:01) the government is in our hearts ,because that is were God says he will put it ,according to scriptures,
What scripture says this, Pierre?
So I'm not the only one wondering this.Pierre, please provide the scripture for us.
davidso you are blind ,look up a few quotes down in time
and also answer my questions
I know what religion teaches ,
you want me to give you scriptures ? why? you prove what I say is not according to scriptures ,this way you will bring truth to the discussion.
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 17 2011,02:47) David…………You are using your JW Bible translation to support you false teachings of the Kingdom of God only being a Physical Kingdom becasue it makes you people feel you are special , unique, and separates you from the rest of the world so by that you people think you are the “ONLY TRUE CHOSEN ONES” and in order to grow you organization your leaders Know it is necessary to preach that their organization is the only ones who have “THE REAL TRUTH” even if it means creating you own translations and alterations of plain scriptures. You say we don't quote scriptures that is a LIE David, We have and you fail to acknowledge them becasue they differ from you organizations belief system .
Here is some scriptures that you say we don't quote.
Like 17:20……And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,when the, Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,The kingdom of God comes “NOT WITH OBSERVATION”
Luk 17:21……> Neither shall you say, Lo here!, or lo there! for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you
Now David are these Scriptures or NOT?
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Hi Gene,How about these verses?
Even the [HolySpirit] of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,
neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:17)
Rom.14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the HolySpirit.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgED j……….Good one brother, the Kingdom of GOD is where he rules and He rules his true Childern from the inside OUT not from the outside IN> The JW'S focuses is on the outside a Physical Kingdom becasue there leaders know it will tantalize their physically minded followers and gives them complete control over their people, even to the point they would let their own childern die from lack of a blood transfusions, when it could easily save their lives, that just goes to show what control a CULT can have over a person> I know becasue i was once in a CULT, WWCOG and I know the level of control over people they have. The JW'S except nothing but what their “ELDERS” tell them. But what i have found in most cases it is the Ignorant who fall victim to them, just as I was when i got sucked into the wwcog i was a bible illiterate as most people they come into there organization are also. I doubt anyone who really knows scriptures will fall into their trap. They have no problem changing scriptures to meet their false teachings, even to the point of translating their own bible, I would avoid them like the plague. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 17 2011,02:47) David…………You are using your JW Bible translation to support you false teachings of the Kingdom of God only being a Physical Kingdom becasue it makes you people feel you are special , unique, and separates you from the rest of the world so by that you people think you are the “ONLY TRUE CHOSEN ONES” and in order to grow you organization your leaders Know it is necessary to preach that their organization is the only ones who have “THE REAL TRUTH” even if it means creating you own translations and alterations of plain scriptures. You say we don't quote scriptures that is a LIE David, We have and you fail to acknowledge them becasue they differ from you organizations belief system .
Here is some scriptures that you say we don't quote.
Like 17:20……And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,when the, Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,The kingdom of God comes “NOT WITH OBSERVATION”
Luk 17:21……> Neither shall you say, Lo here!, or lo there! for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you
Now David are these Scriptures or NOT?
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Gene, your statements are grossly fallacious.The VAST MAJORITY of Bibles translate it as the NWT does. Here are some examples:
“is in your midst.” (New World Translation)
“is in your midst.” (NASB)
“ is already among you.” (The Message)
“is already among you.[a]” (New Living)
“is in the midst of you.”[a] (English Standard)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Darby Translation)
“is among you.” (holman)
“is among you.” (New International readers version)
“is in your midst.” [a] (todays new international version)
“is among you” (The New English Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (The Jerusalem Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (Revised Standard Version)
“is among you.” (The Emphatic Diaglott)EVEN THE BIBLES THAT IGNORE CONTEXT AND TRANSLATE IT WRONG MAKE THIS CONCESSION:
KJ margin reference: “within you: or, among you.”
NIV footnote: “The kingdom of God is among you.”So, it's simply FALSE, ABSURD, RIDICULOUS to the highest degree to try to make this a case of: JW Bible against every other Bible. These are false arguments. Why can't we just consider scripture?
And yes, I know you have quoted the 1 scripture that we are considering: LUKE 17:20,21.
But, GENE, you like to make long sentences with connected ideas, but don't like to show where those ideas came from.
If you believe that the MAJORITY of Bible translations got it wrong, you should at least attempt to explain why, rather than repeatedly stating that they are wrong and the KJ is right.
When I say that you aren't providing scriptures, I am talking about scriptures to back up the idea that Luke 17:21 should be translated the way you believe it should.
It's easy to take one single scripture, which is translated in a way that most translations don't translate it, and ignore the majority of translations and ALSO ignore the other scriptures which are very clear on the subject. it's easy to do those things. And then when someone calls you on it, it's very easy to start labeling them and using false arguments against them.
Those things are easy. But what is hard, is to use the Bible to support your ideas and logic.
Yes Gene, you quoted the scripture we are discussing. But Gene, the “kingdom” is the central theme of Jesus teaching. Surely, there are other scriptures that apply, and that can clarify, since even the KJ and NIV have alternate translations in their footnotes and margins.
David.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 17 2011,02:59) Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2011,00:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,12:43) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,19:01) the government is in our hearts ,because that is were God says he will put it ,according to scriptures,
What scripture says this, Pierre?
So I'm not the only one wondering this.Pierre, please provide the scripture for us.
davidso you are blind ,look up a few quotes down in time
and also answer my questions
I know what religion teaches ,
you want me to give you scriptures ? why? you prove what I say is not according to scriptures ,this way you will bring truth to the discussion.
Pierre
yes, Pierre, yes, I want us to use Scriptures.Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 17 2011,03:20) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 17 2011,02:47) David…………You are using your JW Bible translation to support you false teachings of the Kingdom of God only being a Physical Kingdom becasue it makes you people feel you are special , unique, and separates you from the rest of the world so by that you people think you are the “ONLY TRUE CHOSEN ONES” and in order to grow you organization your leaders Know it is necessary to preach that their organization is the only ones who have “THE REAL TRUTH” even if it means creating you own translations and alterations of plain scriptures. You say we don't quote scriptures that is a LIE David, We have and you fail to acknowledge them becasue they differ from you organizations belief system .
Here is some scriptures that you say we don't quote.
Like 17:20……And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,when the, Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,The kingdom of God comes “NOT WITH OBSERVATION”
Luk 17:21……> Neither shall you say, Lo here!, or lo there! for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you
Now David are these Scriptures or NOT?
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Hi Gene,How about these verses?
Even the [HolySpirit] of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,
neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:17)
Rom.14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the HolySpirit.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
OK, I'm starting to get the idea that this is a main argument used to support the “kingdom of God is within people” idea.Here is why it is a bad argument:
the holy spirit is not God's kingdom.
Over and over and over again, God's holy spirit is said to be “in” people.
I don't think anyone here argues that. It's so bizarre to me when people keep using this as proof. Yes, God's holy spirit resides in people. Sure. Agreed.
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH JESUS ANSWERING THE PHARISEES AND SAYING THAT THE “KINGDOM” IS EITHER “WITHIN” THEM OR “AMONG” THEM?
And then we have Romans 14:17. Yes, it is talking about the “kingdom of God” and it does have the word “in” in the sentence. But that's about it. It DOES NOT say the kingdom is within people.
Are these really thought to be valid arguments?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 17 2011,05:53) ED j……….Good one brother, the Kingdom of GOD is where he rules and He rules his true Childern from the inside OUT not from the outside IN> The JW'S focuses is on the outside a Physical Kingdom becasue there leaders know it will tantalize their physically minded followers and gives them complete control over their people, even to the point they would let their own childern die from lack of a blood transfusions, when it could easily save their lives, that just goes to show what control a CULT can have over a person> I know becasue i was once in a CULT, WWCOG and I know the level of control over people they have. The JW'S except nothing but what their “ELDERS” tell them. But what i have found in most cases it is the Ignorant who fall victim to them, just as I was when i got sucked into the wwcog i was a bible illiterate as most people they come into there organization are also. I doubt anyone who really knows scriptures will fall into their trap. They have no problem changing scriptures to meet their false teachings, even to the point of translating their own bible, I would avoid them like the plague. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene
Fair enough. Gene is out of this conversation. He didn't want to use scriptures any way, so I thought that was a dead end. He seems to prefer to continually use the “he's a JW, therefore he's wrong” sort of fallacious argumentation. I sort of tend to lose respect for people who can't use scripture to prove a point, but constantly use the logical fallacy of ad hominem.david
Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2011,21:12) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 17 2011,02:59) Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2011,00:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,12:43) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,19:01) the government is in our hearts ,because that is were God says he will put it ,according to scriptures,
What scripture says this, Pierre?
So I'm not the only one wondering this.Pierre, please provide the scripture for us.
davidso you are blind ,look up a few quotes down in time
and also answer my questions
I know what religion teaches ,
you want me to give you scriptures ? why? you prove what I say is not according to scriptures ,this way you will bring truth to the discussion.
Pierre
yes, Pierre, yes, I want us to use Scriptures.
david
you have them but you do not look at them ,and so claim alway that you want scriptures ,why is it that you do not answer my quotes and question ,??
this is now more then 3 or 4 quotes you do not respond to
so be it ,you do not answer ,I will leet you go
Pierre
David,
Quote OK, I'm starting to get the idea that this is a main argument used to support the “kingdom of God is within people” idea. The kingdom of God is of the kingdom of the godly character and the character of God dwells in those that obey all of Jesus' teachings. Therefore the character of God is among those specific people which is why Scripture declares that God dwells in them though his Spirit.
Who disagrees with that?
Is there someone adding or taking away from it?
I assure you that flesh and blood do not enter the kingdom of God.
Quote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,18:14) First,you didn't use “scriptures,” you used one scripture:
“I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
Secondly, I believe it is applicable to believers, but not all believers. When quoting this, we should also include the next verse;
“Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
david, I am not making the argument that the scripture in question is not saying the Kingdom of God is among us, but I made the point earlier that the same word is used elsewhere in scripture about the inside of the cup and if you use it the same way, then it is indeed inside or within.I then followed this line of reasoning further with other scriptures that talk about the new spirit that resides in us, and without it we cannot see the kingdom.
But if you must have more scripture (which is a good thing to ask for) then I can give you this:
Jesus said in John 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, from within him shall flow rivers of living water.Other scriptures say heart. The point here is that Jesus gives us access to the river of life or living water and it flows from within us rather than say an earthly river that flows around us, (if we bathe in it). Just another witness scripture about God moving from inside or within us, rather than in an external way that we see with other kingdoms and relationships. What other kingdom do you know of can only be seen if the spirit is in us, or what other kingdom offers life or living water from our inner most being?
We know that God is a spirit and spirit can live inside people, even bad spirits reside in people.
The very description of a temple which our body is and the Church is demonstrates that it is what is inside the temple that defines the temple.
I am sure that I could search out heaps of scriptures that refer to within, in us, or in our soul regarding the things of God.
I am merely making these points which I believe are valid as to whether the Kingdom of God can be in us or not.
Further, if out of your innermost being shall flow living water, is that water the river of life?
If so, then it flows from the throne of God which is in Heaven. Thus, again we see a Kingdom that is spiritual and on high, and effects us from within, rather than from a physical perspective like the Kingdoms of this world.
Revelation 22:1
And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,And what kind of water flows in the River of Life?
Surely living water.Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2011,14:21) OK, I'm starting to get the idea that this is a main argument used to support the “kingdom of God is within people” idea. Here is why it is a bad argument:
the holy spirit is not God's kingdom.
An observant person would however see that the things of God and the relationship we have with God is from within.So I guess the argument is, why not the Kingdom?
After all, God is spirit, and he gives us his spirit, and without the spirit we cannot see the Kingdom of God.
You could say that I am not using scripture, but within my words (in this post) are at least three scriptures.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 17 2011,03:20) Hi Gene, How about these verses?
Even the [HolySpirit] of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,
neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:17)
Rom.14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the HolySpirit.God bless
Good point Ed.Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2011,14:04) Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2011,14:21) OK, I'm starting to get the idea that this is a main argument used to support the “kingdom of God is within people” idea. Here is why it is a bad argument:
the holy spirit is not God's kingdom.
An observant person would however see that the things of God and the relationship we have with God is from within.So I guess the argument is, why not the Kingdom?
After all, God is spirit, and he gives us his spirit, and without the spirit we cannot see the Kingdom of God.
You could say that I am not using scripture, but within my words (in this post) are at least three scriptures.
T8,Your points on this matter are well thought out.
Do you believe the unity of the Spirit mentioned in the letter to the Ephessians is also called the kingdom of God.
David………You are thinking within the “BOX” that box is the JW Organization they have put you in, come out side of it, let go of their teachings and ask God to Show you the Truth on this issue, it is clear in scripture that the Kingdom of God is Within a Person. Where GODS Spirit is, there is where his Kingdom is also.
Mar 1 :15 And saying , The time is “fulfilled”, and the Kingdom of God is “at hand” : repent you, and believe the gospel.
Mar 4:11..> And he said unto them, Unto you it (IS) given to Know the mystery of the Kingdom of GOD : but unto them that are without (that is outside of the Kingdom of GOD) all things are done in parables.
David that “Mystery is that the Kingdom of GOD is “within you” David we are not your enemies here you need to come outside of that box they have you in and use the Spirit of God . “brethren you have no need of a teacher for the spirit “ITSELF” shall teach you all things. IMO.
peace and love to you and yours David……………gene
David……….Here is another to think about…> Mar 4:26 ….> and he said, So is the Kingdom of GOD, as if a man should cast seed into the ground ;
David that Ground is our hearts and that seed is the word of GOD sown into it. That is the KINGDOM OF GOD. being created within us The Kingdom of God rules “within” by God's Holy Spirit, it does not come with OBSERVATION IT MUST BE “WITHIN” YOU> IMO
peace and love………………………………gene
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,21:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,19:43) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,19:01) the government is in our hearts ,because that is were God says he will put it ,according to scriptures,
What scripture says this, Pierre?
MikeJer 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds…………………..
Hi Pierre,I didn't see what you claimed in any of the scriptures you posted. The “law” is not the same thing as the “government” that upholds that law.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 16 2011,09:47) David…………You are using your JW Bible translation to support you false teachings of the Kingdom of God……………. The JW'S except nothing but what their “ELDERS” tell them………
They have no problem changing scriptures to meet their false teachings, even to the point of translating their own bible, I would avoid them like the plague.
Gene,Do you know of a scripture the NWT got wrong? If so, please post it in this thread.
That challenge goes out to everyone here. I would like some of the people here who constantly belittle the NWT to put their money where their mouths are and PROVE the flaws they claim it has.
(David, how much you wanna bet that no one even responds to this challenge? It's far easier to remain on the bandwagon of biased ignorance and finger pointing than it is to actually delve into the matter and discover that there really is no reason FOR that biased finger pointing. Besides, if they actually looked into the NWT and found it teaches exactly what the Greek and Hebrew texts teach, they would be forced to drop the NWT slams and actually address the scriptures themselves.
)mike
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2011,23:30)
The kingdom of God is of the kingdom of the godly character and the character of God dwells in those that obey all of Jesus' teachings.
That statement is odd enough to me, for a whole KINGDOM cannot dwell within someone. And when you consider that this KINGDOM wound not only be “within” ONE person, but possibly millions of people, we now have millions of KINGDOMS. Unless it says that only PART OF the Kingdom of God is “within you”. Does it?Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2011,23:30)
I assure you that flesh and blood do not enter the kingdom of God.
So you believe that the Kingdom of God can be IN flesh and blood beings when flesh and blood beings cannot even ENTER it?
How does one go about ENTERING something that is “within them”?mike
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2011,01:20) I made the point earlier that the same word is used elsewhere in scripture about the inside of the cup and if you use it the same way, then it is indeed inside or within.
Hi t8,I think what David has been asking is: “WHY would you use it the same way? If the word can mean “within”, but it can also mean “in your midst”, what other scriptures do you have to SUPPORT the “within” definition in Luke 17:21?”
I have seen many scriptures that support “in your midst”, but none so far that would support the entire Kingdom of God being “within” the very Pharisees that had Jesus killed.
This is what the 25 NON JEHOVAH WITNESS scholars from NETNotes say about Luke 17:21:
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
Footnote: Luk 17:21
This is a far better translation than “in you.” Jesus would never tell the hostile Pharisees that the kingdom was inside them. The reference is to Jesus present in their midst. He brings the kingdom. Another possible translation would be “in your grasp.”So because of this NETNotes info, and the MANY other non-JW translations David listed that have “in your midst”, we should at least be able to keep the discussion focused on the Kingdom of God instead of the “faulty NWT”, right? That will be a step in the right direction.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2011,01:20) Thus, again we see a Kingdom that is spiritual and on high, and effects us from within, rather than from a physical perspective like the Kingdoms of this world.
Let's say this is the correct assumption. For I agree that God's Kingdom does affect us from within. Would this mean that God's Kingdom was affecting from within the very Pharisees who killed Jesus? Are THEY some of the ones from which “living waters will flow”? Would it mean that there is not a PHYSICAL Kingdom of God in which we can someday dwell?If I say God is “within me”, does it mean there is no longer a REAL God who dwells in heaven? Of course not. So in my mind it is not a question of the translation of Luke 17:21, but a question of whether or not there is a real, viable Kingdom, complete with real kings and princes who will rule over the real citizens of that Kingdom.
I say “YES”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2011,07:56) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,21:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,19:43) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,19:01) the government is in our hearts ,because that is were God says he will put it ,according to scriptures,
What scripture says this, Pierre?
MikeJer 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds…………………..
Hi Pierre,I didn't see what you claimed in any of the scriptures you posted. The “law” is not the same thing as the “government” that upholds that law.
Mikethe kingdom of God is not a kingdom of the world ,not physical but spirit ,understanding ,trough the spirit ,
Jesus say flesh count for nothing ;right ;how is that ?
so think ;
is the flesh moves without the will of the soul inside of it ? NO
without the will of the soul there is nothing done ,got it ?
this is why all we think ,we do ,it is our soul will,either good or bad,got it ??
the judgement is for us all but is the flesh judged ? NO ,it is the soul because it is the soul that is US and the soul IS SPIRIT ,not the flesh,
you can not say that the gun that killed is guilty it is the person behind the gun that is ;;got it ??
the flesh is the instrument that God as given for men to be on earth ,but it was not maid known until Christ came and told his disciples and explained it to them ,and so they have explain it to us all in the written letter they have given us trough the holy spirit ;GOT IT???
the flesh can not please God but the spirit can :GOT IT.
all the good fruits are of the spirit ,right ? yes,got it ??
the confusion is when we mix the flesh and the spirit soul together and so do not understand, born again mean to be in the spirit of the soul and not in the flesh ,the flesh count s for nothing ,got it ?so let the kingdom of God and his son enter your heart and be saved ,God s kingdom is the will of God ,got it ?
because if we do not submit to it we will not be saved ,got it
only God will ,is the true ,and truth ,no other,got it ?Pierre
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