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Mike,
Quote He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood…….. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. The word 'will' is not a good translation since the word 'tread' is in the present indicative active and not in the future tense. You can see that many of the translations have it written correctly.
New International Version (©2011)
Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.Notice that in Isaiah 63, the person with the robe claims that his own arm brought salvation to him, his own wrath sustained him.
Anyway, Rev 19 is pre-battle and the robe already has blood spattered on it. Isa 63 is post battle, the same battle that Rev 19 is referring to as I understand it.
There are possibilities of where that blood came from, pre-battle:1. Christ's own blood from His crucifixion.
2. The blood of the prophets and the saints who were killed because of their testimony of Him and of whom He is about to avenge.It is really unclear. In both cases, the blood shed was pre-battle it seems. After the battle, His garments are covered with more blood, the blood of the kings and their armies.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2013,22:23) Kathi, while I admire your search into the scriptures to find hidden treasures, I can't help but notice that you go way out of your way to find any little tidbit that you can “sway” into saying Jesus is God Almighty – all the while ignoring the many CLEAR scriptures that say we have ONE Almighty God, and Jesus is not Him, but His SERVANT.
Mike,
Thank you but many have found these treasures before me as I see confirmation in the commentaries to what I am thinking before I even read the commentaries.Btw, I haven't had to go 'way out of my way.' I have stumbled upon this particular vein of thought while looking for something else and also something a preacher said when explaining Revelations.
First is saw the words 'his own arm' in a verse that was part of a search about God having His own strength.
Then I started talking about that on here.
Middle of the page:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=900This past weekend, I was listening to a dvd teaching regarding Revelations while folding clothes one day (because of the 'root and shoot' theme that we have been discussing and I heard him mention Isa 63 and I didn't remember what Bible reference that he said and so I went back to hear it and write it down because I thought it would be relevant to showing Jesus as YHVH. Come to find out, it was about Jesus as YHVH's own arm and then through that I saw the Rev 19 connection.
So, Isa 63 and Rev 19 both came to me while looking and listening to something unrelated, or so I thought. The reason that these things caught my attention is because I am seeking evidence for you and others here that Jesus is identified with YHVH of the OT, and therefore they caught my attention while looking for something else.
We agree that there are two theos in John 1:1. I believe they are together identified with YHVH and that they are one, hence, the one Almighty God is the Father through the Son together with their Spirit.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,23:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2013,21:58) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 20 2013,13:24) Gene Quote T8……….The “MYSTERY was “HOW” God was “IN” Christ Jesus reconciling the World unto “HIMSELF”. You or no one here KNOWS “HOW” God does that. prove it in scriptures
Terricca……….Here is you request,1Ti 3:16……> And without controversy great is the Mystery of godliness God was manifest in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
The Mystery is that God was 'IN” the Flesh man Jesus , just as Jesus said he Was over and over. God's Presence “IN” Jesus ,was and is the “MYSTERY”.
Why a Mystery ?, Because you or I or anyone else does not know “HOW” God can do that. How He can Be “IN” a PERSON and even Speak “THROUGH” that Person. If you know how then please tell us Pierre I would like to know your version of how that is Done.
peace and love to you and your Pierre………………………..gene
gene1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;KJVQuote The Mystery is that God was 'IN” the Flesh man Jesus , just as Jesus said he Was over and over. God's Presence “IN” Jesus ,was and is the “MYSTERY”. so let see if you are true
scripture says ; 1)And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; what does it mean
2)God was manifest in the flesh; what this mean
3)justified in the Spirit,how can it be justified I mean the presence of God
4) seen of angels; how ,when ,where,???
5) preached unto the Gentiles ;what was it that was preached to the gentiles about the mystery
6)believed on in the world,; how's that7)received up into glory ; whom was Paul talking about
please answer the questions and so let me see if you are still true ,
GENE?Kathi
Quote No creation there. The LORD always had His OWN strength (the Son). but everything was already created ,what is your problem the entire scripture would have BEEN useless if ” SATAN WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED ;SO GET OFF THE HORSE YOU CAN NOT RIDE
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2013,00:40) Bump for Mike.
Sorry Kathi. I will tend to this ASAP. My time has been limited lately due to family and work.
Terricca………How come you can't understand that?
1……..It's a mystery, that means it is not understood , you can't understand how it works, you simply can't understand how God can be in The flesh man Jesus, in fact no one else can either.
2……..God was in the flesh man Jesus, when are you going to start to believe what Jesus said. He said the Father was in him. Get it?
And Paul was talking about the MAN JESUS who had the FATHER who “IS” GOD who us “IN” him, or don't you believe God was truly “IN” Jesus?
Pierre if you can understand what I have already posted it should also answer the rest of your questions.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 28 2013,21:49) Terricca………How come you can't understand that? 1……..It's a mystery, that means it is not understood , you can't understand how it works, you simply can't understand how God can be in The flesh man Jesus, in fact no one else can either.
2……..God was in the flesh man Jesus, when are you going to start to believe what Jesus said. He said the Father was in him. Get it?
And Paul was talking about the MAN JESUS who had the FATHER who “IS” GOD who us “IN” him, or don't you believe God was truly “IN” Jesus?
Pierre if you can understand what I have already posted it should also answer the rest of your questions.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
GeneYou deserve your tiles ,I am sure you can understand why,
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,00:03) The word 'will' is not a good translation since the word 'tread' is in the present indicative active and not in the future tense. In both cases, the blood shed was pre-battle it seems. After the battle, His garments are covered with more blood, the blood of the kings and their armies.
It seems obvious to me that the blood is already on the rider of the white horse BEFORE the beast and his armies gather together to do battle with him. (Verse 19)And it seems equally obvious to me that the one in Isaiah 63:3 had his garments stained by the juice of those he trampled.
Where are you trying to go with this anyway?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,00:03) Notice that in Isaiah 63, the person with the robe claims that his own arm brought salvation to him, his own wrath sustained him.
Okay. And how exactly does this make Jesus BE the Almighty God he is the servant of?It is already clear from John that Jesus was the arm of the Lord who accomplished at least one mission for his God and our God, right?
I guess I'm missing the connection that says Jesus IS Jehovah.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2013,21:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,00:03) The word 'will' is not a good translation since the word 'tread' is in the present indicative active and not in the future tense. In both cases, the blood shed was pre-battle it seems. After the battle, His garments are covered with more blood, the blood of the kings and their armies.
It seems obvious to me that the blood is already on the rider of the white horse BEFORE the beast and his armies gather together to do battle with him. (Verse 19)And it seems equally obvious to me that the one in Isaiah 63:3 had his garments stained by the juice of those he trampled.
Where are you trying to go with this anyway?
Why couldn't the 'blood' on the robe pre-battle in Rev. not be the blood of the martyrs which He is going to avenge? Do you remember what Jesus said to Saul on the road to Damascus? Saul as you remember was persecuting the Christians. Jesus said “Why are you persecuting me?”After the battle the robe is more bloody with the blood of those He attacked with His OWN ARM.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2013,21:21) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,00:03) Notice that in Isaiah 63, the person with the robe claims that his own arm brought salvation to him, his own wrath sustained him.
Okay. And how exactly does this make Jesus BE the Almighty God he is the servant of?It is already clear from John that Jesus was the arm of the Lord who accomplished at least one mission for his God and our God, right?
I guess I'm missing the connection that says Jesus IS Jehovah.
Who is the speaker in Isaiah 63?There you go then. If Isaiah is referring to the same rider in Rev. then Jehovah who is the rider in Isa 63 is also the Lamb who is the rider in Rev.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 03 2013,20:01) After the battle the robe is more bloody with the blood of those He attacked with His OWN ARM.
So if Jesus is the one with the blood spattered garments, then who are you saying is Jesus' “OWN ARM”?I still don't see where you're going with this, Kathi.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 03 2013,20:06) There you go then. If Isaiah is referring to the same rider in Rev. then Jehovah who is the rider in Isa 63 is also the Lamb who is the rider in Rev.
And who says the rider in Rev is the same as the one “striding” in Is 63?Ok, I just re-read Isa 63, and there is no mention of the speaker being a rider on a horse, that was my assumption, sorry. That doesn't mean that He wasn't on a horse, never-the-less, the passages speak about the same event apparently, and use the same ideas.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2013,21:07) Quote (Lightenup @ April 03 2013,20:06) There you go then. If Isaiah is referring to the same rider in Rev. then Jehovah who is the rider in Isa 63 is also the Lamb who is the rider in Rev.
And who says the rider in Rev is the same as the one “striding” in Is 63?
Mike,
Do you believe that Isa 63 is referring to an end time event? If not, when did YHVH do what is said in Isa 63?All throughout the prophets, Kathi. Many times, after God let Israel be beaten down for her sins, He used similar language when referring to His coming vengeance against the nations that He let beat Israel down.
Read Joel 3 for one such time. (Verse 13 even has the metaphoric “grape” language.)
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