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Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2013,05:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,21:24) So the question should be Is Mike (my son) the Exact Representation of Keith? The answer would be “No”. Though my Son is “equally, and exactly human”. Get it t8?
If you are making a reference to the difference between identity and nature, then perhaps you are finally onto something. Have we not been telling you that they are different for years though?
No what you have been telling me is “a son whose human nature is the exact representation of his father, is not human.Or the Son whose God Nature is the exact representation of his Fathers nature is not God, but is something less than God!
Simple you see!
You should shut this sight down and learn the basics of scripture and stop trying to teach others what you do not know!
But then again…
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” Jn 12:40
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2013,05:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,21:24) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2013,21:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,10:41) “And He is the radiance of His glory and the “EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE”, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Heb 1:3
WJ, look up the word representation.Are you Keith or a representation of Keith?
Simply word games! The word [God] is a title t8 not a name like Keith. You should know this.
If you were sincere you would ask the question differently since we are talking about the Father and the Son!
So the question should be Is Mike (my son) the Exact Representation of Keith? The answer would be “No”. Though my Son is “equally, and exactly human”.
Get it t8?
The Son is the Only being in the Universe that the scriptures claim has the “exact nature” Of the Father!
Is this to hard for you?
WJ
It doesn't change the meaning of the word 'representation'.
Its not “representation” it is “exact representation of his nature”.Example:
A human Father has a human son whose nature is exact!
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2013,05:04) If something represents a hammer, then is it that hammer?
No, but if it is the “exact representation” of the hammer then it is “equal to” or no less a hammer is it?Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2013,05:04) If something represents a country, then is it that country?
No, Jesus is not the Father but Jesus nature is God!Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2013,05:04) If someone represents the president of the USA, then is he/she the president of the USA?
No, Jesus is not the Father but Jesus nature is God!Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2013,05:04) If someone represents God, then is he that God?
No, Jesus is not the Father but Jesus nature is God!Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2013,05:04) You really need to discuss things within your depth WJ. Are you aware that when you extend yourself too much, you run the risk of not knowing what you are talking about.
”Slander”
1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions madeWJ
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2013,05:13) WJ, you haven't changed a bit from what I can see.
Still as stubborn as ever IMO.
”Slander”
1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
You mean because I am like you and haven’t changed my beliefs or doctrine?
Seems like the pot calling the kettle black to me!
WJ
WJ………you made a statement that I do agree with, that Jesus' nature is exactly as the father, and that's one thing also that I believe you Trinitarians have over other Preexistence here like T8 and Mike. You do see God's real presence ” IN” Jesus I also see that. Now with the idea that God who is spirit can be in “all” and “through” all. presents a problem, and this it the problem, if God can be in Me to the full measure of the stature of Christ. Then am I with that same nature a God also just as Jesus is. I hope you get my point brother. Not saying I am a God. Because the term God demotes powers.
The ancient Hebrew language was a pictorial language and the symbol they used for the word God was a picture of a ox head with a sheppards staff beside it. The ox represented power and the staff represented what they leaned on or trusted in. None of that presented God as a person but as power they trusted in.
Another point to consider while Jesus or I may have the same nature as God by his sprit being present in us and our faith putting us in him ( the Father) does that mean, if it were true, that we would have the same power as the Father does? Just because we have His Spirit in us Both?
If you get some time brother read in revelations were it shows that the Lamb (Jesus) does have the seven spirits ( intellects) of God, but also notice they are upon seven “Horns , horns are the symbol of powers which enforce those seven spirits , so Jesus (will have) both the seven spirits and the seven power of God, and will return and exercise those spirit intellects and powers ( until the end of the millennial reign.), at which time he turns back to God the Father all power and becomes subject to him as we are, and God himself begins to reign all creation. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours ………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 22 2013,16:08) WJ………you made a statement that I do agree with, that Jesus' nature is exactly as the father, and that's one thing also that I believe you Trinitarians have over other Preexistence here like T8 and Mike. You do see God's real presence ” IN” Jesus I also see that. Now with the idea that God who is spirit can be in “all” and “through” all. presents a problem, and this it the problem, if God can be in Me to the full measure of the stature of Christ. Then am I with that same nature a God also just as Jesus is.
GeneWow is that you? I am impressed with your tone and your writing though I do not agree with some of it.
The answer is no! Because Jesus is the “Only Begotten (unique of its kind) Son”. Jesus alone is the “exact representation of the Fathers nature”. Heb 1:3
Jesus nature allows him to be everywhere at the same time like the Father. Though we shall be like him we shall never be Omnipresent or “all in all”.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2013,10:00) No what you have been telling me is “a son whose human nature is the exact representation of his father, is not human. Or the Son whose God Nature is the exact representation of his Fathers nature is not God, but is something less than God!
Simple you see!
Wrong again WJ.Although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself and came in flesh. He died for those in the flesh, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of God. Now we will receive a body like his.
This is the good news I have proclaimed all along.
Either you cannot grasp what I am saying even though it is not complicated, or you purposefully try to misquote my teaching.
If the latter, then you should know it is wrong to bear false witness.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,23:39) That would mean that they are sons of God as equally as Jesus, is that what you believe?
Absolutely – with the exception that Jesus was the FIRST son God ever created, and all the other spirit sons of God were created BY God and THROUGH His FIRST son, Jesus.God is spirit, Keith. So is Jesus. So are the other spirit sons of God. But as with all firstborns of Hebrew culture, God too gives much more to His firstborn.
He is more powerful than the other spirit sons of God. He has a higher rank than they do. He is the only one who sits at the right hand of his God, ruling over the creation of his God.
But if we're talking about “nature”, which you seem to be, then God's “nature” is “spirit being”. And yes, Jesus and God's other spirit sons share that same nature. Some of us will someday share it as well.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,00:36) So if at 10:am you have 100 groups of three gathered in his name how could he be “IN THE MIDST” OF THEM IF HE IS NOT Omnipresent or GOD?
Let me use your scriptural reference to make my point, Keith:If Jesus is ONLY in the midst of groups of three or more who are presently gathered in his name, then there are thousands of places where he ISN'T at that very time.
If this was not true, then it would have been utterly useless for him to say he'd be there WHEN three or more are gathered in his name. That implies that he is not ALWAYS there, right?
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2013,20:12) Perhaps when we consider we are made of atoms, and atoms are made of neutrons, protons, electrons, and electrons are made up of quarks, and if we keep going, perhaps the smallest and deepest thing is God's Spirit.
Okay, let's follow that reasoning for a minute. Let's say that God's Spirit IS what quarks are made of. Now we have two choices:1. The quarks are made ENTIRELY of God's Spirit, meaning the electrons are subsequently made ENTIRELY of God's Spirit, and the atoms are made ENTIRELY of God's Spirit, which means WE are made ENTIRELY of God's Spirit. That means WE are God.
2. The quarks are made PARTLY of God's Spirit. In that case, there are parts of the quarks with AREN'T made of God's Spirit, which means God is NOT everywhere all the time.
At whichever level you decide that humans are made of something OTHER THAN God, you have also decided that God is not everywhere, IMO.
My belief is that God CAN BE anywhere He wants to be at any particular time. But He is not “everywhere all the time” (omnipresent).
Zechariah 1:8-11 speaks of beings who go about the earth and report what they find back to God. Why the need for the reports?
And Jesus speaks about the angels of little children, who report to the face of God on a daily basis. (Matthew 18:10) Why would these little ones need angels to report back to God about how they were being treated?
There are of course, other scriptural examples such as these.
WJ
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
would you think that because it says “the exact representation of His nature” would this make YOU understand that Christ his God and not HIS son
or that the father and the son are the same person Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,23:39) Well then the words of the Apostle in Hebrews 1:3 are useless because he makes a “distinction” between the Angels and Jesus.
Actually, the Greek word is “aggelos”, which means “messenger”. To which scripture do you refer?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,23:39) But unlike you I don’t believe Jesus is something “less” than God like you……….
Do you believe the son of the king is also the king? Do you believe the son of the President is also the President? Do you believe the son of the Prime Minister is also the Prime Minister?Of course not. Why then would you think the SON OF God is the very God he is the Son of?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,23:39) A dog begets dog, etc, etc.
If it started out that there was only ONE dog in existence, then THE Dog would beget A dog. But the begotten dog would not be THE Dog who begot him.I believe that THE God beget A god. In fact, scripture bears me out on this point.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,23:39) Of course the Son is not the Father!
And who does scripture says is our only God?1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father……..Paul says our one God IS the Father.
John 20:17
I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.Who do you suppose Jesus meant when he said “my Father” and “my God”? The words seem clear enough that he was talking about the Father, and only the Father. So if the God of Jesus is ONLY the Father, and the God of Jesus is also the God of us, it can only mean that the God of us is also ONLY the Father.
So now you have Paul and Jesus both telling us very clearly that our God is the Father – not some combination of Father and servant of Father.
Don't those scriptures mean anything to you, Keith? There are hundreds of other ones that teach the same thing, you know.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2013,04:04) It doesn't change the meaning of the word 'representation'. If something represents a hammer, then is it that hammer?
Actually, the Greek word usually translated as “representation” is “charakter”. A “charakter” is the engraving tool that stamped an image into metal. They used to show one at the end of certain movies – a big hand with a hammer stamping the studio's logo into a piece of metal.But not only is the tool itself called a “charakter”, the engraving left from the tool being hammered into the metal is likewise the “charakter”.
In other words, the image made on the metal FROM the tool is the “exact representation” (charakter) of the tool that made the image. But the image on the metal isn't actually the tool itself.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,14:28) No, Jesus is not the Father but Jesus nature is God!
Didn't you just say “God” was a “title”? Explain to me how “God” is a “nature”, Keith.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2013,21:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,23:39) But unlike you I don’t believe Jesus is something “less” than God like you……….
Do you believe the son of the king is also the king? Do you believe the son of the President is also the President? Do you believe the son of the Prime Minister is also the Prime Minister?
So Shallow!Sons of Kings, Presidents, and Prime Ministers is not a good example of the Father and the Only Begotten Son because we are talking about “nature and identity” You are stuck on identity.
But on the other hand all of them have one thing in common; their “nature” is that of a man.
Mike in any of your lame examples is any one of those men “less human” than the other? Is their nature not equally human?
Get the point?
But even if I use your shallow example and attempt to diminish or explain away the truth of the nature of Jesus your fallacy is exposed.
Mike if the Son of a King is heir to the throne and has inherited all things and now sits in the throne as King, is the Son less King than his Father?
All things are in Jesus hands now and he sits in the throne of God ruling supreme and everything is being subjected to him.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2013,21:32) Of course not. Why then would you think the SON OF God is the very God he is the Son of?
Its about nature and identity. When you began to see the truth of Jesus nature and his identity then the truth will set you free!WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2013,21:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,14:28) No, Jesus is not the Father but Jesus nature is God!
Didn't you just say “God” was a “title”? Explain to me how “God” is a “nature”, Keith.
Nature
a : the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : essenceExamples:
Dog is a title. A dogs nature is dog!
Men that have an “evil nature” means they are evil!
Back to the basics!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2013,21:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,23:39) A dog begets dog, etc, etc.
If it started out that there was only ONE dog in existence, then THE Dog would beget A dog. But the begotten dog would not be THE Dog who begot him.
MikeOnce again, its about identity and nature. Either you are to stubborn or blind to see it or you just are not able to comprehend simple truths. It could be you are not even saved and have an unregenerate spirit that is incapable of understanding spiritual truths. I pray God give you the Spirit of wisdom and understanding in the knowledge of him and that revelation will break forth in your heart with the glorious truths of the Gospel of Christ!
Dog is a title which identify's the nature of a particular animal.
Example:
So the dog(nature) Spot(identity) begets the dog(nature) Rover(identity).
Is Rover less Dog than Spot? That is as easy as I can make it Mike. Can't help you see it more than that.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2013,21:34) I believe that THE God beget A god. In fact, scripture bears me out on this point.
Since you believe Jesus is “a god” like the Father in nature then why do I not see you calling him “your god”. Oh that's right you did a couple times. I can pull them up if you like!WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2013,21:46) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2013,04:04) It doesn't change the meaning of the word 'representation'. If something represents a hammer, then is it that hammer?
Actually, the Greek word usually translated as “representation” is “charakter”. A “charakter” is the engraving tool that stamped an image into metal. They used to show one at the end of certain movies – a big hand with a hammer stamping the studio's logo into a piece of metal.But not only is the tool itself called a “charakter”, the engraving left from the tool being hammered into the metal is likewise the “charakter”.
In other words, the image made on the metal FROM the tool is the “exact representation” (charakter) of the tool that made the image. But the image on the metal isn't actually the tool itself.
But thats not all the definition Mike.b) the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile
So if the “charakter” is not also like the tool in every way, it is not the “exact representation of his nature. Not only does the “charakter” become the “charakter” but it also becomes the tool!
How can anything less than God be an exact copy of God?
WJ
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