The divider of Christians

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2013,16:37)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,07:56) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2013,15:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,07:44) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2013,15:33) Hi WJ, No, his father would still be greater. God bless Ed J So then Jesus is less in nature than the Father? Is that what you think that scripture means? WJ Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2013,15:48) No, equal in nature, but less in power. Really! What about these… And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “All power” is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given “all things” into his hand. Jn 3:35 WJ Greater is the one who gives, than the one who gets.

Ed

But you said that Jesus was “less in power”, and those scriptures say Jesus is equal in power.

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,08:40)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2013,16:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,07:56) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2013,15:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,07:44) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2013,15:33) Hi WJ, No, his father would still be greater. God bless Ed J So then Jesus is less in nature than the Father? Is that what you think that scripture means? WJ Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2013,15:48) No, equal in nature, but less in power. Really! What about these… And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “All power” is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given “all things” into his hand. Jn 3:35 WJ Greater is the one who gives, than the one who gets. Ed But you said that Jesus was “less in power”, and those scriptures say Jesus is equal in power. WJ

Hi WJ,

The power Jesus has is his fathers.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,02:41)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2013,15:34) wj Quote And all those who do not understand that Jesus has the same “EXACT” nature of the Father sees Jesus as less in nature than the Father. Therefore their image of the true Jesus is false and they follow and believe in another Jesus! do you have a scripture to this declaration “And He is the radiance of His glory and the “EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE”, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Heb 1:3 WJ

WJ

Hebrews 1:3
Context
NET ©
The Son is 1 the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, 2 and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 3
NIV ©
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
NASB ©
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NLT ©
The Son reflects God’s own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly. He sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command. After he died to cleanse us from the stain of sin, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God of heaven.
MSG ©
This Son perfectly mirrors God, and is stamped with God's nature. He holds everything together by what he says–powerful words! After he finished the sacrifice for sins, the Son took his honored place high in the heavens right alongside God,
BBE ©
Who, being the outshining of his glory, the true image of his substance, supporting all things by the word of his power, having given himself as an offering making clean from sins, took his seat at the right hand of God in heaven;
NRSV ©
He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NKJV ©
who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
KJV
Who
being
(5752) the brightness
of [his] glory
_, and
the express image
of his
person
_, and
upholding
(5723) all things
by the word
of his
power
_, when he had
(0) (0) by
himself
purged
(5671) our
sins
_, sat down
(5656) on
the right hand
of the Majesty
on
high
_;
NASB ©
And He is the radiance
of His glory
and the exact
representation
of His nature
, and upholds
all
things
by the word
of His power
. When He had made
purification
of sins
, He sat
down
at the right
hand
of the Majesty
on high
,
GREEK
ov

R-NSMwn
(5752)
V-PXP-NSMapaugasma

N-NSNthv

T-GSFdoxhv

N-GSFkai

CONJcarakthr

N-NSMthv

T-GSFupostasewv

N-GSFautou

P-GSMferwn
(5723)
V-PAP-NSMte

PRTta

T-APNpanta

A-APNtw

T-DSNrhmati

N-DSNthv

T-GSFdunamewv

N-GSFautou

P-GSMkayarismon

N-ASMtwn

T-GPFamartiwn

N-GPFpoihsamenov
(5671)
V-AMP-NSMekayisen
(5656)
V-AAI-3Sen

PREPdexia

A-DSFthv

T-GSFmegalwsunhv

N-GSFen

PREPuqhloiv

A-DPN
NET © [draft] ITL
The Son
is
the radiance
of his glory
and
the representation
of his
essence
, and
he sustains
all things
by his
powerful
word
, and so when
he had accomplished
cleansing
for sins
, he sat down
at
the right hand
of the Majesty
on
high
.
NET ©
The Son is 1 the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, 2 and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 3
NET © Notes
1 tn Grk “who being…and sustaining.” Heb 1:1-4 form one skillfully composed sentence in Greek, but it must be broken into shorter segments to correspond to contemporary English usage, which does not allow for sentences of this length and complexity.
2 tn Grk “by the word of his power.”
3 sn An allusion to Ps 110:1, quoted often in Hebrews.

why is this is different than your quoted scripture

and Christ could not be his father under any condition because IF it was so ,he to could not become man and save us from sin ,

Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,13:45)

And all those who do not understand that Jesus has the same “EXACT” nature of the Father sees Jesus as less in nature than the Father.

I see Jesus with a nature that is equal to his Father and God, Jehovah.  The nature of both of them is “spirit being”.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,13:45)

Therefore their image of the true Jesus is false and they follow and believe in another Jesus!

We believe in the Jesus that was taught by the writers of the scriptures.  That Jesus is the Son OF our one and only God.  You guys believe in a fabricated Jesus who actually IS the very God he is the Son OF.  It seems it is YOU who believes in a different Jesus, Keith.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,14:41)

“……and the “EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE”………Heb 1:3

Keith,

The word “his”, that I've underlined and supersized, refers back to the subject “God” in verse 1.

Surely our one and only “God” cannot possibly be a REPRESENTATION OF our one and only “God”.

For someone to be a REPRESENTATION OF God, he must be someone OTHER THAN God.

This should be common sense.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,14:13)

So then Jesus would be “equal to the Father” in “Omnipresence'?

The claim that God is “omnipresent” is silly, if you ask me.  For God to be truly omnipresent, He must be all places at all times.  And if He were, then everything and everyone would be God.

For example, if I am not God, yet I take up space in the universe, then the space I take up is space where God is not. And if God was taking up the space I take up, it would mean I am God.

Keith, many times in scripture, both God and Jesus are said to “come to” others; and others are said to “come to” them.  This wouldn't even be possible if God and Jesus were everywhere all the time.  You can't “come” and “go” if you are already everywhere.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2012,08:53)

Apparently, there is no limit to the silliness people will speak in order to keep their flawed, man-made doctrines afloat. What irks me the most is how certain people will PRETEND to not understand a simple concept – because they know the understanding of that concept shows their doctrine to be flawed. (Ed, for example, is a master at this technique.)

God does hand people over to be self-deluded.
Because they want a lie to be the truth, they will believe the lie and defend it vigorously.

They lose sight of how precious truth is and how precious their own soul is too.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2013,13:20)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,14:13) So then Jesus would be “equal to the Father” in “Omnipresence'? The claim that God is “omnipresent” is silly, if you ask me.  For God to be truly omnipresent, He must be all places at all times.  And if He were, then everything and everyone would be God. For example, if I am not God, yet I take up space in the universe, then the space I take up is space where God is not.  And if God was taking up the space I take up, it would mean I am God. Keith, many times in scripture, both God and Jesus are said to “come to” others; and others are said to “come to” them.  This wouldn't even be possible if God and Jesus were everywhere all the time.  You can't “come” and “go” if you are already everywhere.

Good point.

I guess what you could say is God is in all.

Although that is not true today, it will be true when all has been subject to the messiah.

Perhaps when we consider we are made of atoms, and atoms are made of neutrons, protons, electrons, and electrons are made up of quarks, and if we keep going, perhaps the smallest and deepest thing is God's Spirit.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,10:30)

Thanks!   So if Jesus is “Omnipresent” then that would mean that he is “equal” to the Father in that he would see all things, know all things, and have power over all things. That would mean that he is God like the Father! WJ

But Jesus will return. So are you saying that when he returns, he will meet himself?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,10:41)

“And He is the radiance of His glory and the “EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE”, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Heb 1:3

WJ, look up the word representation.

Are you Keith or a representation of Keith?
Is Jesus God or the representation of God?

Back to the drawing board WJ.

[Proclaimer]

WJ, Jesus is like God, and Jesus is in bodily form.
Does his body extend everywhere at all times?
Whereas God is an eternal invisible Spirit.

There is a big difference there.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,17:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,13:45) And all those who do not understand that Jesus has the same “EXACT” nature of the Father sees Jesus as less in nature than the Father. I see Jesus with a nature that is equal to his Father and God, Jehovah.  The nature of both of them is “spirit being”.

Mike

Well then the words of the Apostle in Hebrews 1:3 are useless because he makes a “distinction” between the Angels and Jesus. So according to your logic the angels who are also “spirit beings” have the “exact nature” of the Father. That would mean that they are sons of God as equally as Jesus, is that what you believe?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,13:45)

Therefore their image of the true Jesus is false and they follow and believe in another Jesus! Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,17:58) We believe in the Jesus that was taught by the writers of the scriptures.  That Jesus is the Son OF our one and only God.

I believe that too! But unlike you I don’t believe Jesus is something “less” than God like you, meaning he is some sort of freak of nature. Nature itself tells you “like begets after its own kind”. A dog begets dog, etc, etc.
 

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,17:58)

You guys believe in a fabricated Jesus who actually IS the very God he is the Son OF.  It seems it is YOU who believes in a different Jesus, Keith.

Come on Mike we are talking about nature and not persons. Of course the Son is not the Father!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2013,21:17)

WJ, Does his body extend everywhere at all times?

t8

No but his Spirit does. Do you believe this?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2013,21:17)

Whereas God is an eternal invisible Spirit.

So is Jesus! Your point is…?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,18:20)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2013,14:13) So then Jesus would be “equal to the Father” in “Omnipresence'? The claim that God is “omnipresent” is silly, if you ask me.  For God to be truly omnipresent, He must be all places at all times.

Well Mike

Is there any physical location in this universe where we can hide from the presence of God? The answer, according to Scripture, is “No!” King David  asked this question… “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell [the grave], behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me” (Psalm 139:7–10).

Believe the scriptures.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,18:20)

For example, if I am not God, yet I take up space in the universe, then the space I take up is space where God is not.

You are talking about the laws of physics. God is not limited to time or space.

Tell me Mike how can Jesus be in the Father and the Father in him all at the same time?

If what you say is true then how can God dwell in you, unless you have a big empty space in your head!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2013,18:20)

You can't “come” and “go” if you are already everywhere.

For any other being, true. But God coming and going is merely God manifesting his presence.

Jesus said…”For where two or three are gathered together in my name, THERE AM I IN THE MIDST OF THEM.  Matt 18:20

So if at 10:am you have 100 groups of three gathered in his name how could he be “IN THE MIDST” OF THEM IF HE IS NOT Omnipresent or GOD?

Or maybe you don’t believe his words!  

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2013,21:15)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,10:41) “And He is the radiance of His glory and the “EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE”, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Heb 1:3 WJ, look up the word representation. Are you Keith or a representation of Keith?

Simply word games! The word [God] is a title t8 not a name like Keith. You should know this.

If you were sincere you would ask the question differently since we are talking about the Father and the Son!

So the question should be Is Mike (my son) the Exact Representation of Keith? The answer would be “No”. Though my Son is “equally, and exactly human”.

Get it t8?

The Son is the Only being in the Universe that the scriptures claim has the “exact nature” Of the Father!

Is this to hard for you?

WJ

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,21:24)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2013,21:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,10:41) “And He is the radiance of His glory and the “EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE”, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Heb 1:3 WJ, look up the word representation. Are you Keith or a representation of Keith? Simply word games! The word [God] is a title t8 not a name like Keith. You should know this. If you were sincere you would ask the question differently since we are talking about the Father and the Son! So the question should be Is Mike (my son) the Exact Representation of Keith? The answer would be “No”. Though my Son is “equally, and exactly human”. Get it t8? The Son is the Only being in the Universe that the scriptures claim has the “exact nature” Of the Father! Is this to hard for you? WJ

It doesn't change the meaning of the word 'representation'.

If something represents a hammer, then is it that hammer?
If something represents a country, then is it that country?
If someone represents the president of the USA, then is he/she the president of the USA?
If someone represents God, then is he that God?

You really need to discuss things within your depth WJ.

Are you aware that when you extend yourself too much, you run the risk of not knowing what you are talking about.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,21:24)

So the question should be Is Mike (my son) the Exact Representation of Keith? The answer would be “No”. Though my Son is “equally, and exactly human”. Get it t8?

If you are making a reference to the difference between identity and nature, then perhaps you are finally onto something. Have we not been telling you that they are different for years though?

And now you only need a small step to see that there is a difference between being THE THEOS in identity and theos in nature, quality, or authority.

“Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

[Proclaimer]

WJ, you haven't changed a bit from what I can see.
Still as stubborn as ever IMO.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,18:24)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2013,21:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,10:41) “And He is the radiance of His glory and the “EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE”, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Heb 1:3 WJ, look up the word representation. Are you Keith or a representation of Keith? Simply word games! The word [God] is a title t8 not a name like Keith. You should know this. If you were sincere you would ask the question differently since we are talking about the Father and the Son! So the question should be Is Mike (my son) the Exact Representation of Keith? The answer would be “No”. Though my Son is “equally, and exactly human”. Get it t8? The Son is the Only being in the Universe that the scriptures claim has the “exact nature” Of the Father! Is this to hard for you? WJ

WJ……..Good to hear from you, hope you and yours are all ok brother.

Peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 22 2013,12:18)

WJ……..Good to hear from you, hope you and yours are all ok brother. Peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

Thanks! Same to you! God bless you Gene.

WJ

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