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Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,16:33) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 26 2013,08:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,21:34) Better yet, why don't YOU quote me the part where Jesus says, “Spirits cannot be touched, nor can they eat”. When you do that, it will again be worth my time to discuss. Until then, I will continue to reject your made-up theory out of hand.
As for the other topic, am I to assume that you believe Satan's angels are spirit beings, but God's angels consist of flesh?
Is that where we're leaving it?
Mike,We are addressing this in another thread.
Kerwin.I live in ausralia,where do you live?
We need to analyse these scriptures.
2 Chronicles 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne,
***and all the host of heaven standing***
on his right hand, and on his left
TAKE NOTE: ***ALL THE HOST OF HEAVEN***
THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY ALL THE ANGELS.2 Chronicles 18:19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.(THE ANGELS WERE DISCUSSING WHO SHALL GO).
2 Chronicles 18:20 **Then there came out a spirit**,
***and *stood* before the LORD***,
and said, *I will* entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
THIS LYING SPIRIT WOULD BE ONE OF SATAN'S ANGELS.
FOR THEY WERE NOT CAST DOWN TO EARTH YET.
SINCE SATAN IS THE FATHER OF LIES.2 Chronicles 18:21 **And he said**,
**I will go out**, **and be a lying spirit**
in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.**I WILL GO OUT AND BE A LYING SPIRIT**
ONE OF THE ANGELS WILL BE THE LYING SPIRIT.wakeup.
Hi WakeupGood point.
Good scriptures.
Obvious there was a lying spirit in heaven at that time,
one of the angels not yet “kicked” out of heaven.
And we know if one of them puts their hand up to be a “lying spirit” then we know which side he is on.
And we know that the angels that followed Lucifer were kicked out of heaven for good after Christ conquered death and ascended to his Father.It's so simple, and plain to see. We know this from the scriptures itself and not from some book about the bible.
You keep your head up high Wakeup, no matter how much they try to knock you down. You are confident in what you are saying, and some of them take it as pride. Their loss.
Journey,
Even in avoiding any tool he is given by God to understand the language he is making a choice to be intentionally ignorant of the vocabulary of Scripture and so performing an action that condemned in Scripture. I see no reason to encourage such behavior.
I figured out everything from Scripture so that is possible but I also am wise enough to know I have blind spots and those blind spots are hopefully not the same as others. Looking as the original languages and the opinions of others is a way to to test my beliefs and to look at Scripture in ways I was never taught in the society I live in. I am not so foolish as to not to test the spirit of what I hear as well as what I believe despite what wakeup seems to think.
As I said I doubt he knows what lying spirit means and his words make it sound like he does not want to know. It vain to argue with such an individual unless I see a benefit for myself or others in doing so.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,19:38) Journey, Even in avoiding any tool he is given by God to understand the language he is making a choice to be intentionally ignorant of the vocabulary of Scripture and so performing an action that condemned in Scripture. I see no reason to encourage such behavior.
I figured out everything from Scripture so that is possible but I also am wise enough to know I have blind spots and those blind spots are hopefully not the same as others. Looking as the original languages and the opinions of others is a way to to test my beliefs and to look at Scripture in ways I was never taught in the society I live in. I am not so foolish as to not to test the spirit of what I hear as well as what I believe despite what wakeup seems to think.
As I said I doubt he knows what lying spirit means and his words make it sound like he does not want to know. It vain to argue with such an individual unless I see a benefit for myself or others in doing so.
Kerwin.As you are studying the scriptures by your self
you also allow stange flesh to guide your path
through the scriptures.
This is how you come up with such strange ideas.
Disregarding even the scriptures to proof your point.Kerwin you are copping out.
The kichen is getting too hot.wakeup.
Wakeup and journey,
I used that same passage against Kerwin's claim earlier. It is that passage that got him to change from “ALL angels are flesh”, to “only SOME of them are flesh”.
But why do you guys think this spirit who deceived the prophets was an “evil spirit”, or a son of Satan? Wasn't it God who told him, “Deceive and overpower him. Go out and do as you have proposed” ?
God also instructed Joshua to use deceptive tactics to take the city of Ai.
I see this particular spirit as one of God's beloved angel sons, who had a good idea that God accepted, and then was given permission from God Himself to act on that idea.
If the servant was only doing what his Master condoned, how could you say the servant was “evil” and the Master wasn't?
hi
2Ch 18:18 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD? I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left.
2Ch 18:19 And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that.
2Ch 18:20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’
“ ‘By what means?’ the LORD asked.
2Ch 18:21 “ ‘I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“ ‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’
2Ch 18:22 “So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”before to take a quick conclusion on those verses ;I would think a little ;
why would the lying spirit come from Satan
does the scriptures say to whom it is a lie to my understanding the lie would be to the false prophets and so to their leader,and what would that lie imply
what was the purpose of itare not today believers guided into a lie if they do not believe the written words of God
yes they are ,so next question the angel was not Satan or any of his angels ,it says ;“So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets”
how could God the holy be entangled with the corrupted Satan ? God may refrain him from doing things but work with him
I need a second opinion on that onemikeboll64,Oct. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Wakeup and journey, I used that same passage against Kerwin's claim earlier. It is that passage that got him to change from “ALL angels are flesh”, to “only SOME of them are flesh”.
Some progress there then!Quote But why do you guys think this spirit who deceived the prophets was an “evil spirit”, or a son of Satan? Wasn't it God who told him, “Deceive and overpower him. Go out and do as you have proposed” ? Yes, because at that time, the fallen angels were not yet kicked out of heaven. They could come and go as they please. They all took part in the heavenly meetings.
The holy angels of God are loyal and true. God is truth, but he also said he created evil. This does not mean that God is evil, but evil is used as a tool to “separate” the good from the bad,… angels included.I can't see the holy angels wanting to be a lying spirit, but only the angels who followed the Father of Lies (Satan) would get enjoyment out of it. Even though this particular angel obeyed God in carrying out this task, it revealed what was in his heart, and maybe God was testing them, but still used needed to use them for his purpose, for he is in control of everything.
terraricca,Oct. wrote:[/quote]
Quote why would the lying spirit come from Satan John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Quote does the scriptures say to whom it is a lie to my understanding the lie would be to the false prophets and so to their leader,
Whatever lies they believe, it is because God allows it. Lies were born since the serpent was in the garden, and Satan was the first one to lie. This is his character, his spirit which is the opposite to holy.Quote and what would that lie imply
what was the purpose of it
What are you talking about now? Are you speaking of what happened in 1 Kings or about the false prophets now?Quote are not today believers guided into a lie if they do not believe the written words of God yes they are ,
This is where scripture always makes us wonder about many things, and discussions take us away from the original scripture we are discussing.Quote so next question the angel was not Satan or any of his angels ,it says ;“So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets”
It could of been Satan for all we know. It doesn't mention his name. Instead of pondering off track, think for a moment.God only asked;
1 Kings 22:20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.So God is only asking. They are discussing. God doesn't need those angels to make his decisions, for he is the one with the wisdom, but he lets them participate. Then we have one angel that comes up with a plan and says he will be the one to persuade him.
1 Kings 22:22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? and he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets….
And the Lord gave him the go-ahead, his permission.
Quote how could God the holy be entangled with the corrupted Satan ? God may refrain him from doing things but work with him I need a second opinion on that one
God is USING Satan as a tool. They don't work together, but Satan is the axe, and God is the one holding the handle.
God uses the wicked to do the evil works.
Anyone participating in evil has to suffer the consequences,
for we reap what we sow.
The evil angels and Satan are USED by God to bring those evil rewards.
They get enjoyment out of it. It is their pleasure. But God is holding the strings, and nothing can happen unless God allows it.All: Be careful what you read here.
My Bible (The Jerusalem Bible) says:
“Then the spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh.”Names of God Bible
“Then the Ruach stepped forward, and stood in front of Yahweh”The Hebrew word used at BibleHub is:
ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Part of Speech:Noun Feminine Transliteration:ruach
Phonetic Spelling:(roo'-akh)
Short Definition:spiritQuote (2besee @ Oct. 31 2013,12:38) All: Be careful what you read here. My Bible (The Jerusalem Bible) says:
“Then the spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh.”Names of God Bible
“Then the Ruach stepped forward, and stood in front of Yahweh”The Hebrew word used at BibleHub is:
ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Part of Speech:Noun Feminine Transliteration:ruach
Phonetic Spelling:(roo'-akh)
Short Definition:spirit
Hi 2BesseWhy be careful?
A Spirit, the spirit, it makes no difference. We all get the message that one spirit spoke up and volunteered.Regarding “the Ruach” I don't know what you mean? Names of God bible? what does that mean?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2013,10:21) Wakeup and journey, I used that same passage against Kerwin's claim earlier. It is that passage that got him to change from “ALL angels are flesh”, to “only SOME of them are flesh”.
But why do you guys think this spirit who deceived the prophets was an “evil spirit”, or a son of Satan? Wasn't it God who told him, “Deceive and overpower him. Go out and do as you have proposed” ?
God also instructed Joshua to use deceptive tactics to take the city of Ai.
I see this particular spirit as one of God's beloved angel sons, who had a good idea that God accepted, and then was given permission from God Himself to act on that idea.
If the servant was only doing what his Master condoned, how could you say the servant was “evil” and the Master wasn't?
Mike b.God always use the bad at heart to do the bad works.
For example Judas iscariot;
God used him to betray Jesus,for he was the bad at heart
amongst the apostles.He was the greedy one.
God also use satan and his angels to do all the bad works on earth.(he will not use the good angels).All the angels,good and bad were in heaven at that time,
because they were not cast out of heaven yet, untill the resurrection of Christ. see rev.12.
The child was taken up,and then the war in heaven.
Satan and his angels were cast down into the earth.wakeup.
j42
Quote why would the lying spirit come from Satan John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
this answer is because you assume that the spirit his and angel ,right
or no ?Quote Quote
so next question the angel was not Satan or any of his angels ,it says ;“So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets”It could of been Satan for all we know. It doesn't mention his name. Instead of pondering off track, think for a moment.
1 Kings 22:22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? and he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets….
THE ANGEL SAYS THAT “HE WILL BE ” SO HE HIS NOT “BUT WILL BECOME ”
Quote God uses the wicked to do the evil works. THIS IS UNSCRIPTURAL ,BECAUSE THIS WOULD MAKE GOD GUILTY OF ALL THE WICKEDNESS IN CREATION EVEN SATAN ;WHAT IS FOLLY TO EVEN CONTEMPLATE IN THE MIND,
WICKED PEOPLE ARE DOING WHAT IS NATURAL FOR THEM TO DO ;BUT GOD'S RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE ARE PROTECTED ACCORDING TO HIS WILL ,GOD DOES NOT HAVE EVIL WORKS ;GOD HAS LOVE AND ALL HE DOES HIS WITH LOVE AND IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,21:38) Even in avoiding any tool he is given by God to understand the language he is making a choice to be intentionally ignorant of the vocabulary of Scripture and so performing an action that condemned in Scripture. I see no reason to encourage such behavior. I figured out everything from Scripture so that is possible but I also am wise enough to know I have blind spots and those blind spots are hopefully not the same as others. Looking as the original languages and the opinions of others is a way to to test my beliefs and to look at Scripture in ways I was never taught in the society I live in. I am not so foolish as to not to test the spirit of what I hear as well as what I believe despite what wakeup seems to think.
As I said I doubt he knows what lying spirit means and his words make it sound like he does not want to know. It vain to argue with such an individual unless I see a benefit for myself or others in doing so.
Kerwin, that was well said!
I pop in now and again and just read and often follow your posts with interest. Some listen to you Kerwin, don't worry what a few say
Journey,
Quote Names of God bible? what does that mean? Quote:
While most translations obscure the names and titles of God by replacing them with just a few English words such as God ,Lord , or LORD, The Names of God Bible restores the transliterations of ancient names —such as Yahweh, El Shadday, El Elyon, and Adonay—to help the reader better understand the rich meaning of God’s names that are found in the original Hebrew and Aramaic.I use the Jerusalem Bible, though.
Quote Regarding “the Ruach” I don't know what you mean? That is the spirit or breath (Hebrew).
Pierre
Quote John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Quote this answer is because you assume that the spirit his and angel ,right or no ?
Yes, Definately an angel.
Notice God doesn't say “angel”, but “spirit”.
They are the same but this one's different,
and God probably worded it like that so that we can argue about it.Quote God uses the wicked to do the evil works. Quote THIS IS UNSCRIPTURAL ,BECAUSE THIS WOULD MAKE GOD GUILTY OF ALL THE WICKEDNESS IN CREATION EVEN SATAN ;WHAT IS FOLLY TO EVEN CONTEMPLATE IN THE MIND,
Why would God be guilty? It's his plan. He created evil, and he said it himself. This does not make God evil, but look around, and there is evil everywhere in the world. People get murdered, robbed, abused, etc. Who is doing this? The righteous? I don't think so.
Was hitler a righteous man when he killed 6 million Jews?
Was God too weak to stop it? Or did he allow it?
Ask yourself.Quote WICKED PEOPLE ARE DOING WHAT IS NATURAL FOR THEM TO DO ;BUT GOD'S RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE ARE PROTECTED ACCORDING TO HIS WILL ,GOD DOES NOT HAVE EVIL WORKS ;GOD HAS LOVE AND ALL HE DOES HIS WITH LOVE AND IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
God is love yes.
But God can also be angry and vengeful. It's his right.
God can bring evil upon a city at his command,
and he doesn't use the righteous to do it.Quote 1 Kings 22:22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? and he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets…. Quote THE ANGEL SAYS THAT “HE WILL BE ” SO HE HIS NOT “BUT WILL BECOME “
He went straight out and did it.Quote (2besee @ Oct. 31 2013,14:25) Journey, Quote Names of God bible? what does that mean? Quote:
While most translations obscure the names and titles of God by replacing them with just a few English words such as God ,Lord , or LORD, The Names of God Bible restores the transliterations of ancient names —such as Yahweh, El Shadday, El Elyon, and Adonay—to help the reader better understand the rich meaning of God’s names that are found in the original Hebrew and Aramaic.I use the Jerusalem Bible, though.
Quote Regarding “the Ruach” I don't know what you mean? That is the spirit or breath (Hebrew).
Hi 2BesseOk, thank you.
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 31 2013,13:32) j42 Quote why would the lying spirit come from Satan John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
this answer is because you assume that the spirit his and angel ,right
or no ?Quote Quote
so next question the angel was not Satan or any of his angels ,it says ;“So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets”It could of been Satan for all we know. It doesn't mention his name. Instead of pondering off track, think for a moment.
1 Kings 22:22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? and he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets….
THE ANGEL SAYS THAT “HE WILL BE ” SO HE HIS NOT “BUT WILL BECOME ”
Quote God uses the wicked to do the evil works. THIS IS UNSCRIPTURAL ,BECAUSE THIS WOULD MAKE GOD GUILTY OF ALL THE WICKEDNESS IN CREATION EVEN SATAN ;WHAT IS FOLLY TO EVEN CONTEMPLATE IN THE MIND,
WICKED PEOPLE ARE DOING WHAT IS NATURAL FOR THEM TO DO ;BUT GOD'S RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE ARE PROTECTED ACCORDING TO HIS WILL ,GOD DOES NOT HAVE EVIL WORKS ;GOD HAS LOVE AND ALL HE DOES HIS WITH LOVE AND IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
Terra.All the angels were around God's throne.
Good and bad angels.
And one of the bad angels volunteered
to be a lying spirit.Quote THE ANGEL SAYS THAT “HE WILL BE ” SO HE HIS NOT “BUT WILL BECOME “ NOT BECOME A LYING SPIRIT.
But be in place of a lying spirit.
wakeup.
Quote (journey42 @ Nov. 01 2013,00:13) Why would God be guilty? It's his plan. He created evil, and he said it himself. This does not make God evil, but look around, and there is evil everywhere in the world. People get murdered, robbed, abused, etc. Who is doing this? The righteous? I don't think so.
Was hitler a righteous man when he killed 6 million Jews?
Was God too weak to stop it? Or did he allow it?
Ask yourself.
Journey……> You are right GOD is SOVEREIGN and can stop evil or bring it, just as scriptures say has and did . Even the Evil he allows or brings serves his GODLY Purpose. So the end of it is for the ultimate Good. IMO .Some like to think they are in own control by, their so-call, “Free Wills” But the fact is God is in Control of all creation from the start of it, to the finish of it. He allows what He allows and non can deliver from his hand, He and He “ALONE” is “SOVEREIGN” IMO.
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 31 2013,14:43) Quote (2besee @ Oct. 31 2013,12:38) My Bible (The Jerusalem Bible) says:
“Then the spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh.”Names of God Bible
“Then the Ruach stepped forward, and stood in front of Yahweh”
Hi 2BesseWhy be careful?
A Spirit, the spirit, it makes no difference. We all get the message that one spirit spoke up and volunteered.Yes. 'The Spirit (or) A Spirit' does make a difference. Also, the Hebrew is 'I will become a deceiving spirit', not necessarily 'I will become a lying spirit'. Perhaps there is a difference?
We should be careful how we tread and what we say regarding this, for fear of blasphemy.My scripture says “The Spirit”, and the names of God Bible also says “The Ruach”.
Why would they say that?I don't know what your understanding of 'The Spirit' is?
My understanding is that the Spirit of God is God's own inner Spirit, while at the same time, it is a “Person”.
Isaiah 11:1-2
Then a shoot will come out from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from its roots will bear fruit.
The Ruach Yahweh will rest on him—
the Ruach of wisdom and understanding,
the Ruach of advice and power,
the Ruach of knowledge and fear of Yahweh.1 Corinthians 15:45-47
This is what Scripture says:
“The first man, Adam, became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit
(From the Spirit that was in his flesh while on Earth)John 23:31-34
The person who comes from above is superior to everyone (The Spirit).
I, a person from the earth, know nothing but what is on earth,
and that’s all I can talk about.
The person who comes from heaven (The Spirit) is superior to everyone and tells what he has seen and heard.
Yet, no one accepts what he says.
I have accepted what that person said,
and I have affirmed that God is truthful.
The man whom God has sent (From the Jordan) speaks God’s message.
After all, God gives him the Spirit without limit.2 Corinthians 3:17
This Lord is the Spirit.
Wherever the Lord’s Spirit is, there is freedom.
As all of us reflect the Lord’s glory with faces that are not covered with veils,
we are being changed into his image with ever-increasing glory.
This comes from the Lord, who is the spirit.
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