The Angel of the LORD

[kerwin]

To all,

There is no explicit mention of a physical realm in Scripture.
God created both the heavens and the earth and did so before he created the sky and those we see in the sky.

God is unseen and all else that is was created by God; whether it is things in heaven or on earth.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2012,07:57)

To all, There is no explicit mention of a physical realm in Scripture. God created both the heavens and the earth and did so before he created the sky and those we see in the sky. God is unseen and all else that is was created by God; whether it is things in heaven or on earth.

K

You need reading the scriptures more often thi would help you to see and understand his words

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 26 2012,21:58)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2012,07:57) To all, There is no explicit mention of a physical realm in Scripture. God created both the heavens and the earth and did so before he created the sky and those we see in the sky. God is unseen and all else that is was created by God; whether it is things in heaven or on earth. K You need reading the scriptures more often thi would help you to see and understand his words

T,

Do you know where the Ancient Greek mentions a physical realm? If you do then share.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2012,01:24)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 26 2012,21:58) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2012,07:57) To all, There is no explicit mention of a physical realm in Scripture. God created both the heavens and the earth and did so before he created the sky and those we see in the sky. God is unseen and all else that is was created by God; whether it is things in heaven or on earth. K You need reading the scriptures more often thi would help you to see and understand his words T, Do you know where the Ancient Greek mentions a physical realm?  If you do then share.

k

Colossians 1:16
Context
NET © for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1 whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.

NIV ©
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

NASB ©
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

NLT ©
Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see––kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.

MSG ©
For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels–[everything] got started in him and finds its purpose in him.

BBE ©
For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;

NRSV ©
for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.

NKJV ©
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Col 1:15 [Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.(the amplified bible)

pas
pav pas
Pronunciation: pas
Origin: including all the forms of declension
Reference: TDNT – 5:886,795
PrtSpch: adj
In Greek: pan 75, panta 262, pantav 90, pantev 177, panti 57, pantov 33, pantwn 133, pasa 46, pasai 16, pasaiv 7, pasan 57, pasav 9, pash 44, pashv 41, pasin 88, paswn 5, pav 96, [panta] 1, [pantev] 1, [pashv 1
In NET: all 521, every 107, everything 95, everyone 64, all things 60, All 30, of all 30, to all 25, whole 25, Everyone 25, them all 16, any 13, Every 11, every way 8, every kind 8, to everyone 8, whatever 7, entire 7, for all 6, Everything 6, all people 6, All things 6, complete 5, all these things 5, all kinds 5, full 4, of all things 3, with all 3, every respect 3, all sorts 3, anyone 3, to every 3, all of them 3, great 3, continually 2, all this 2, whoever 2, anything 2, of everyone 2, of everything 2, more 1, all over 1, surrounding 1, all respects 1, all sons 1, all the other 1, all the others 1, all that 1, all such things 1, in everything 1, of all people 1, To all 1, of full 1, All these things 1, All of them 1, with everyone 1, All those 1, Any 1, all the people 1, Others 1, with every kind 1, Each competitor 1, of every 1, all these 1, eagerly 1, everything and everyone 1, each other 1, for every 1, for everyone 1, they all 1, without losing dignity 1, every situation 1, everyone's 1, every person 1, every one 1, as long as 1, regularly 1, all times 1, from place to place 1, in all 1, in every 1, always 1, among them all 1, from everything 1, any way 1, any kind 1, to everything 1, to anyone 1
In AV: all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2, any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26
Count: 1243
Definition: 1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,
everything

Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

ARE WE LIVING IN A NON PHYSICAL WORLD KERWIN ?

I CAN BRING TO YOU KNOWLEDGE BUT NOT UNDERSTANDING WHY IS THAT

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2012,03:57)

To all, There is no explicit mention of a physical realm in Scripture. God created both the heavens and the earth and did so before he created the sky and those we see in the sky. God is unseen and all else that is was created by God; whether it is things in heaven or on earth.

There is a physical body and a spiritual one.
A body usually determines the environment where you live.

A fish lives in water.
A human lives on the Earth.
A spirit lives where?
Heavenly Angels are spirits and they live in Heaven.

I guess the idea of the spiritual and physical comes from the idea of the different bodies.

[Proclaimer]

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

So there are spiritual forces and bodies.
There are physical forces and bodies.

A body usually inhabits a realm of some kind.
The body determines the realm.

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2012,17:10)

Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. So there are spiritual forces and bodies. There are physical forces and bodies. A body usually inhabits a realm of some kind. The body determines the realm.

T8,

Explicitly means something that is written out and not derived.  

You on the other hand are arguing that Ephesians 6:12 infers there is a physical realm because a flesh and blood body is a physical body.

You also believe it infers the heavenly realms are non-physical because it states “spiritual forces” are in it.

A true inference must be derived from the available evidence using logical reasoning.

A human being has both a physical and a spiritual side and they both exist in this world.

At least some angels have demonstrated they to have physical sides, at least at times.  As far as I know, those times have always been in this world.

[kerwin]

T,

We live in both a physical and spiritual world as we have both a physical and spiritual side to our composition.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2012,17:47)

T, We live in both a physical and spiritual world as we have both a physical and spiritual side to our composition.

K

man ,you are mixed up, could you explain how you can say this

spiritual world =

physical world ? we know it

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2012,07:21)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2012,17:47) T, We live in both a physical and spiritual world as we have both a physical and spiritual side to our composition. K man ,you are mixed up, could you explain how you can say this spiritual world = physical world ? we know it

T,

Man has both a physical side and a spiritual side. Both exist in this World and ergo this World is not solely a physical World.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2012,15:31)

T8, The literal word interpreted as “natural” is soulish.  So there is a soulish body, which you claim is dead without the Spirit; and there is a Spiritual body, that lives because of the Spirit.

Correct Kerwin.

And there are 2 measures of the Spirit.

There is the breath, which is given to all once which gives us life.
There is Baptism of the Spirit which gives eternal life. It is like the first but is eternally given if we belong to God.

Yes the soulish body is the natural body.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2012,13:45)

T8, Explicitly means something that is written out and not derived.   You on the other hand are arguing that Ephesians 6:12 infers there is a physical realm because a flesh and blood body is a physical body. You also believe it infers the heavenly realms are non-physical because it states “spiritual forces” are in it. A true inference must be derived from the available evidence using logical reasoning. A human being has both a physical and a spiritual side and they both exist in this world. At least some angels have demonstrated they to have physical sides, at least at times.  As far as I know, those times have always been in this world.

Kerwin. Out bodies inhabit a realm. A physical body inhabits a realm, and a spiritual body inhabits a realm.

Admittedly, a spiritual body can inhabit the same realm as the physical body as well as exist in Heaven, but not vice versa (at least for flesh and blood).

So think of physical realm, physical universe, and the realm of all including the unseen as the whole or greater realm. They may or may not be called physical or spiritual realm, so in that case, they can be used as descriptives rather than names.

Just like saying the water realm when referring to the oceans, seas, and rivers. It might not be an actual title, but it is a good enough descriptive.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2012,22:32)

T, Man has both a physical side and a spiritual side. Both exist in this World and ergo this World is not solely a physical World.

Correct. However, it is true that our physical bodies limit us from going places that say spirit beings can access.

I am not sure what the dispute is here because yes we have a spirit, but we live here because of our body. That is why when it is removed, you are no longer here, but your spirit still obviously exists somewhere, whether in a sleep or not. But we will be with him this we know.

I actually think the physical body is not the enabler of senses, but the limiter of senses. It stops us from seeing the whole realm. Instead, we are tied to the physical through our senses and it is known that we only perceive a small part of an almost infinite spectrum. Remove the body and you also remove those limitations.

People who experience a NDE often record seeing things that others could not see. Angels, portals, tunnel, light, etc.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2012,02:32)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2012,07:21) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2012,17:47) T, We live in both a physical and spiritual world as we have both a physical and spiritual side to our composition. K man ,you are mixed up, could you explain how you can say this spiritual world = physical world ? we know it T, Man has both a physical side and a spiritual side. Both exist in this World and ergo this World is not solely a physical World.

K

if we would have both then why would some of us that are redeemed from earth to be changed and receive another “spiritual body ” as Paul says.???

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2012,04:00)

That is why when it is removed, you are no longer here, but your spirit still obviously exists somewhere, whether in a sleep or not.

The spirit goes back to Him who gave it.  It is the soul that begins to exist somewhere else as the body begins to decay.  That “somewhere else” is called Sheol in Hebrew, and Hades in Greek.

Kerwin and I differ in that he believes these souls are conscious in Sheol/Hades, while I believe they are “asleep”.

(There is, however, the exception of Samuel being briefly awakened from his sleep – assumably by demonic powers.)

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2012,10:29)

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2012,04:00) That is why when it is removed, you are no longer here, but your spirit still obviously exists somewhere, whether in a sleep or not. The spirit goes back to Him who gave it.  It is the soul that begins to exist somewhere else as the body begins to decay.  That “somewhere else” is called Sheol in Hebrew, and Hades in Greek. Kerwin and I differ in that he believes these souls are conscious in Sheol/Hades, while I believe they are “asleep”. (There is, however, the exception of Samuel being briefly awakened from his sleep – assumably by demonic powers.)

mike

if god is the only one that can kill the soul ,and that the spirit that he gives us first is it not the same and one SOUL/SPIRIT

WE RECEIVE A SOUL FROM GOD RIGHT BUT THE SOUL HIS THE SPIRIT PART OF US RIGHT THIS IS WHY MEN CANNOT REACH IT TO DESTROYE IT ,

without a soul we do not exist ,right yes ,and it is our soul that will be judged on either good or bad ,and will receive live or dead (destroy)

so live depend on what we think and do,Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

it is true that God can extend someones live ,or shortening it ,but in general WE are responsible for our actions.

so I do believe that the SOUL and the SPIRIT what goes back to God wen we die is one and the same .the place were it goes that

it is clear on the other hand that the flesh was made out of the dust of the earth and so remain on earth ,,but not so for the SOUL God give to all of us one but what is differentiate us is what we do with it.

[kerwin]

T,

The body is the physical side of man.
The soul and spirit is the spiritual side of man.
A soul first becomes living when both come together.

[kerwin]

t8,

Quote

I actually think the physical body is not the enabler of senses, but the limiter of senses. It stops us from seeing the whole realm. Instead, we are tied to the physical through our senses and it is known that we only perceive a small part of an almost infinite spectrum. Remove the body and you also remove those limitations.

I believe you are correct to a point. That point that you gain certain abilities. Even though you may gain some you also loose some, which is why you are wiser to do do those godly deeds that can only be done under the Sun.

[mikeboll64]

Pierre,

There is no need to go through this all again with you. You are aware of how I understand it, and I am aware of how you understand it. We disagree, but I have all the scriptures on my side that say when a man dies, his body decays, his soul goes to rest with his fathers, and his spirit goes back to Him who gave it.

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,12:26)

Pierre, There is no need to go through this all again with you.  You are aware of how I understand it, and I am aware of how you understand it.  We disagree, but I have all the scriptures on my side that say when a man dies, his body decays, his soul goes to rest with his fathers, and his spirit goes back to Him who gave it. peace, mike

Mike

I know those are the scriptures but ;Ps 88:3 For my soul is full of trouble
and my life draws near the grave.
Ps 88:4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am like a man without strength.
Ps 88:5 I am set apart with the dead,
like the slain who lie in the grave,
whom you remember no more,
who are cut off from your care

Isa 26:14 They are now dead, they live no more;
those departed spirits do not rise.
You punished them and brought them to ruin;
you wiped out all memory of them.

MK 12:25 “For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
MK 12:26 “But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’?
MK 12:27 “ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

our difference is only in what I said that the spirit that return to God his our soul ,because the soul his the spirit part of us

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