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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2012,02:55) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 17 2012,02:03) To all, Does Ecclesiastes 9:5 prove the dead do not have a chance to enter heaven as it explicitly states “neither have they any more a reward”?
They have no more day to day earthly rewards. They don't enjoy a big feast anymore, nor do they enjoy romance with their wives, or playing with their children, or visiting with friends, or the smells and sights of harvest time, etc. They don't get to enjoy the simple pleasures of living as a human being anymore.This is how I understand it, Kerwin.
Mike,That sounds reasonable, but why isn't the same context applied to the words “but the dead know not any thing”?
To all;
If God chose to place the soul of a beast into the body of a human being is the resulting creature a human being?
Gene,
I already asked what since those in Sheol/Hades shall “neither have they any more a reward” does it mean they will not enter the kingdom of heaven?
Mike answered it but you did not.
Jesus soul went to Sheol but on the third day it was clothed in a changed tabernacle; a tabernacle that did not see corruption as David's did.
While in Sheol/Hades the soul of Jesus saw the thief on the Paradise side at Abraham's bosom.
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 17 2012,16:07) i have to ask a question ;what power would the black arts or
a medium,
have to waken Samuel 's soul ???a righteous man ?
You tell me, Pierre. Does scripture say Samuel was wakened or not?Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 17 2012,16:07) the Soul his our written history ,with all our knowledge ,emotions ,wills ,envies ,and deepest sentiments ,a real hardrive so to speak, when we will be resurrected we will be exactly the way we were at our dead ,and specially at the second resurrection ,
I can go along with that. But what do those things have to do with our spirit, which goes back to Him who gave it when we die?See? Even YOUR own words indicate that our soul is something different than our spirit, because our soul goes to sleep with our fathers, but our spirit goes back to God.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2012,01:40) Mike, That sounds reasonable, but why isn't the same context applied to the words “but the dead know not any thing”?
The [souls of the] dead are conscious of nothing at all, Kerwin. With the exception of Samuel being wakened from his unconscious rest for a minute, this is always the case. They are asleep with their fathers, until they are wakened by God for the final judgment. While sleeping, they are unaware that they are sleeping, because they are conscious of nothing at all.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2012,02:03) While in Sheol/Hades the soul of Jesus saw the thief on the Paradise side at Abraham's bosom.
This is possible from the text, Kerwin, but not the most likely understanding, IMO.Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”Only one comma, that was placed by English translators, makes it read as you understand it. But what if we moved that comma?
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.”
By moving a simple comma, which wasn't even in the original text, we change the meaning from “you will be with me TODAY” to, “I'M TELLING YOU TODAY, that you will [someday] be with me in paradise”.
I understand the latter. I think Jesus was saying, “I'm telling you RIGHT NOW, that you will EVENTUALLY be with me in paradise.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,02:05) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2012,02:03) While in Sheol/Hades the soul of Jesus saw the thief on the Paradise side at Abraham's bosom.
This is possible from the text, Kerwin, but not the most likely understanding, IMO.Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”Only one comma, that was placed by English translators, makes it read as you understand it. But what if we moved that comma?
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.”
By moving a simple comma, which wasn't even in the original text, we change the meaning from “you will be with me TODAY” to, “I'M TELLING YOU TODAY, that you will [someday] be with me in paradise”.
I understand the latter. I think Jesus was saying, “I'm telling you RIGHT NOW, that you will EVENTUALLY be with me in paradise.”
Mike B.Not you will be eventually with me in paradise;but today you will be with me in paradise.
It does not mean that he is in paradise now,from our time zone perspective.To the thief yes since he is dead; and time stands still for him.
When he opens his eyes,it will be the same day to him.Same with Jesus; he did not go to paradise that same day,from our time perspective.
He was in the grave for 3 days.wakeup.
That is also a good assessment, Wakeup. I can live with that because I agree that, to the dead, judgment day will seem like they only closed their eyes for a second – not like they've been dead for thousands of years.
But the fact still remains that the Greek words can be translated as, “Truly I tell you today, that you will be with me in paradise.”
Do you see how this has a meaning of “I'm telling you today”, and not, “You will be with me in paradise today”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,02:24) That is also a good assessment, Wakeup. I can live with that because I agree that, to the dead, judgment day will seem like they only closed their eyes for a second – not like they've been dead for thousands of years. But the fact still remains that the Greek words can be translated as, “Truly I tell you today, that you will be with me in paradise.”
Do you see how this has a meaning of “I'm telling you today”, and not, “You will be with me in paradise today”?
Mikeb.I agree with that;Just to move the comma can change the meaning.But the wording will not sound proper.
wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,08:53) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 17 2012,16:07) i have to ask a question ;what power would the black arts or
a medium,
have to waken Samuel 's soul ???a righteous man ?
You tell me, Pierre. Does scripture say Samuel was wakened or not?Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 17 2012,16:07) the Soul his our written history ,with all our knowledge ,emotions ,wills ,envies ,and deepest sentiments ,a real hardrive so to speak, when we will be resurrected we will be exactly the way we were at our dead ,and specially at the second resurrection ,
I can go along with that. But what do those things have to do with our spirit, which goes back to Him who gave it when we die?See? Even YOUR own words indicate that our soul is something different than our spirit, because our soul goes to sleep with our fathers, but our spirit goes back to God.
mIKEQuote See? Even YOUR own words indicate that our soul is something different than our spirit, because our soul goes to sleep with our fathers, but our spirit goes back to God. this is because you mixing the spirit (soul that God gives to all )with our spirit (the things we think,and do and forms in our heart )
in the wicked those are two different spirits ,but in the righteous those two spirit are the same in action and thoughts
and both are saved for judgement each in is own time
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2012,10:30) this is because you mixing the spirit (soul that God gives to all )with our spirit (the things we think,and do and forms in our heart )
Pierre,1. The soul, spirit, and body are listed IN SCRIPTURE as three different things.
Can you deny this?
2. When we die, our body decays, our soul goes to Sheol/Hades, and our spirit goes back to Him who gave it.
Can you deny this?
Mike
1Sa 28:11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.”
1Sa 28:14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.Quote You tell me, Pierre. Does scripture say Samuel was wakened or not? so you tell me what scriptures tells ,
did SAUL sew Samuel ? no
did the medium saw him or was she seeing him in a dream type image,??
this story as puzzled me for decades to me it seems NO,but many will argue that he did ,and so gives powers more to men (women in this case) than to God ,
And where do you think those men and women get those powers, Pierre? By what power did the medium raise Samuel from his sleep? By what power did the Egyptian priests turn staffs into snakes and water into blood?
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2012,11:14) 1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.”
Btw Wakeup, in verse 13, the medium actually says, “I see a god (elohim) coming up out of the ground.”Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2012,22:35) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2012,10:30) this is because you mixing the spirit (soul that God gives to all )with our spirit (the things we think,and do and forms in our heart )
Pierre,1. The soul, spirit, and body are listed IN SCRIPTURE as three different things.
Can you deny this?
2. When we die, our body decays, our soul goes to Sheol/Hades, and our spirit goes back to Him who gave it.
Can you deny this?
Mike,Pierre is correct but you seem to be correct as well. That which returns to God is not the spirit as in the one that can be lived by. In the other hand there is a spirit that returns to God while the soul descends to Sheol/Hades.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,10:35) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2012,10:30) this is because you mixing the spirit (soul that God gives to all )with our spirit (the things we think,and do and forms in our heart )
Pierre,1. The soul, spirit, and body are listed IN SCRIPTURE as three different things.
Can you deny this?
2. When we die, our body decays, our soul goes to Sheol/Hades, and our spirit goes back to Him who gave it.
Can you deny this?
MikeI do not deny any of those things ,
you just understand them,
MT 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
does all men carry the same spirit
and is that same spirit that goes back to God who gived it I believe that it is the SOUL that we receive but when it goes back ,it is filled with what we have done and so can be judge accordingly,MT 16:26 “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
so this scripture shows that it is in our power to do what we want with what we recieved from God our SOUL
MT 22:37 And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
let see the tree components ,the body (flesh) all our hearts ,and our mind (spirit) means intention,our will,our desirs , and all our SOUL; this to me means the combination of all two in the performance of the act of LOVE for God,
this is the way for men to save his soul,LK 12:19 ‘And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry.”’
LK 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘ You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’JN 12:27 “ Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘ Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
understand this scripture above ,was it the flesh that was troubled ?? was it his mind ?? or was it his mind and soul ??
his mind for he knew what is coming,but also his soul because he understood that Gods will comes before his own,??Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2012,20:57) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2012,01:40) Mike, That sounds reasonable, but why isn't the same context applied to the words “but the dead know not any thing”?
The [souls of the] dead are conscious of nothing at all, Kerwin. With the exception of Samuel being wakened from his unconscious rest for a minute, this is always the case. They are asleep with their fathers, until they are wakened by God for the final judgment. While sleeping, they are unaware that they are sleeping, because they are conscious of nothing at all.
Mike,Ecclesiastes 9:5
King James Version (KJV)5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
The whole sentence has the same context and so the words “the dead know not any thing” has the same context as “neither have they any more a reward”.
* the living know that they shall die
* the dead know not any thing for the memory of them is forgotten
* neither have the dead any more a reward for the memory of them is forgottenThis is a mystery I find in this passage and that is “Why is “for the memory of them is forgotten” the reason for the dead know nothing or have no memory?
Jesus teaches us of Sheol/Hades and the rich man knows torment while Lazarus knows pleasure. The rich man knows he has brothers and of Lazarus. So in the parable the dead have knowledge.
How do these two Scriptures go together?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,12:00) And where do you think those men and women get those powers, Pierre? By what power did the medium raise Samuel from his sleep? By what power did the Egyptian priests turn staffs into snakes and water into blood?
Mikethe DEMONs ,Saul was abandon by God and even ad the evil spirit give him an hard time,only when David play music did it calm down,
when God leave you ,it means you have used up all your credit,and so become fair play for the devil,and his gang
Mike
Quote 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. this is only related to the living on earth ,right
but the SOUL that his were God send them are still in ignorance because they do not have a body ,and what is it that it knows or does it is like a hardrive in a boxe on a shelve ,waiting to be in use again.in the box or on the shelve the drive does not lose any of his info,right ??yes
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