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Mike,
Yes, I did forget.
I agree that context is important to determine what Jesus is speaking of in John 8:58.
John 8
King James Version (KJV)57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus does not explicitly state that he had seen Abraham, and yet the Jews concluded he meant that.
John 8
King James Version (KJV)56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Scriptue calls Abraham a prophet.
Genesis 20:7
King James Version (KJV)7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
Scripture tells us that Abraham and other prophets searced what and what manner of time the Spirit did signify when it testified of the days of Jesus' sufferings.
1 Peter 1:10
King James Version (KJV)10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.It was revealed to Abraham and the others, even though they were not there, that it was unto a later generation.
1 Peter 1:10
King James Version (KJV)12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Abraham saw Jesus day and rejoyced, just as other prophets did; even though none of them was there.
The context of John 8:58 is not the context of John 14:9. John 14:9 is stating I am currently with you and have been with up to to this time. Apllying the same idea to John 8:58 means Jesus is currently, and has been before Abraham became. The present element is in John 14:9 even though it speaks of an action that started in the past and continues upto the present.
T;
A child born of a surigate mother is conceived outside her womb. They are conceived in a test tube and then once conceived implanted in the surrigate.
Conceived, and its Ancient Greek alternative, mean Mary contributed part or all of her genetic material. It is the female version of begot. Elizabeth contributed a part of her genetic material to John the Baptist and Scripture compares that act with Jesus' conception.
Jesus was not conceived outside the woman as is done with a surigate mother; he was instead conceived inside the woman by the power oof God; acting through his Spirit.
Psalm 77:3
King James Version (KJV)3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.
Do the words “I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and I was overwhelmed. Selah.” have a different meaning than those of Psalms 77:3?
Psalm 77:6
King James Version (KJV)6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.
Do the words “I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and I made diligent search.” have a different meaning than those of Psalm 77:6?
Jesus in the same way addressed his spirit as himself.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,17:09) Mike, Yes, I did forget.
I agree that context is important to determine what Jesus is speaking of in John 8:58.
John 8
King James Version (KJV)57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus does not explicitly state that he had seen Abraham, and yet the Jews concluded he meant that.
John 8
King James Version (KJV)56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Scriptue calls Abraham a prophet.
Genesis 20:7
King James Version (KJV)7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
Scripture tells us that Abraham and other prophets searced what and what manner of time the Spirit did signify when it testified of the days of Jesus' sufferings.
1 Peter 1:10
King James Version (KJV)10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.It was revealed to Abraham and the others, even though they were not there, that it was unto a later generation.
1 Peter 1:10
King James Version (KJV)12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Abraham saw Jesus day and rejoyced, just as other prophets did; even though none of them was there.
The context of John 8:58 is not the context of John 14:9. John 14:9 is stating I am currently with you and have been with up to to this time. Apllying the same idea to John 8:58 means Jesus is currently, and has been before Abraham became. The present element is in John 14:9 even though it speaks of an action that started in the past and continues upto the present.
Kerwin………this is right on brother. IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene
k
Quote A child born of a surigate mother is conceived outside her womb. They are conceived in a test tube and then once conceived implanted in the surrigate. you mean Human fertilization,OR Artificial insemination (AI) is the deliberate introduction of semen into a female for the purpose of fertilisation, by means other than ejaculation directly into the vagina or oviduct.
SO ACCORDING TO YOU WHO DID FERTILIZED MARY ???YOUR ANSWER ;
the power oof God; acting through his Spirit.BUT GOD HIS SPIRIT ,AND HIS SON HIS ALSO SPIRIT SO HOW CAN HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON BE BORN FROM A WOMAN WHEN ALL CREATION WAS DONE THROUGH HIM ???COL;1;15-20-Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truthALL YOUR SCRIPTURES HAVE ABSOLUTLY ANYTHING TO DO WITH CHRIST THE SON OF GOD ,IT IS JUST YOUR INTERPRETATION OF YOUR IMAGINATION,IF YOU WANT WE CAN LOOK AT THEM ONE BY ONE ;
Quote Jesus was not conceived outside the woman as is done with a surigate mother; he was instead conceived inside the woman by the power oof God
IF NOT TELL ME WHY DID GOD INTERVINE ,WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR HIS INTERVENTION ???SHE COULD HAVE JOSEPH FERTILIZED HER AND BLESS THE CHILD LIKE HE DID MANY TIMES ,SO TELL US
?Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,00:09) Jesus does not explicitly state that he had seen Abraham, and yet the Jews concluded he meant that.
That sounds about right, Kerwin……..but is that the part Jesus corrected the Jews about? NOPE. I suppose Jesus could have also said, “When did I ever say I had seen Abraham?” But he didn't correct them about that part, did he?(And in all truthfulness, Jesus might have been one of the angels at Mamre, in which case Abraham and Jesus WOULD HAVE seen each other before. And even if Jesus was existing alongside his God during Abraham's lifetime, Jesus WOULD HAVE seen Abraham from heaven. So your claim that Abraham saw him through a vision or prophecy is just that – a claim. There is no scriptural information to back up that claim – nor is there any scriptural information that says Jesus hadn't actually seen Abraham before, right?)
But, regardless of all this speculation, the fact remains that Jesus corrected the Jews about something, right?
From the CONTEXT, what thing did Jesus correct the Jews about?
They said he was less than 50 years old.
He said he was in existence even before Abraham was in existence.
See? The CONTEXT tells us exactly what Jesus corrected the mistaken Jews about, Kerwin.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,00:09) The context of John 8:58 is not the context of John 14:9. John 14:9 is stating I am currently with you and have been with up to to this time. Apllying the same idea to John 8:58 means Jesus is currently, and has been before Abraham became.
More nonsense, Kerwin. Can you paste any supporting evidence or any translations that render 14:9 as “I have been with you, and still am to this day…………” ?Even if you could, the same would apply to 8:58. Jesus could have been saying, “Before Abraham existed, I have been, and still am to this day……….”.
I believe you're going to have to deal with 14:9 in a more direct way, Kerwin. Perhaps you could just admit the truth of the matter – that even though it is the Greek present “I am”, we ALL know that the English perfect “I have been” is meant in 14:9.
Are you willing to admit this?
T;
Conception is usually when the seed becomes one with the egg and an unformed human being comes to be. In the case of identical twins one twin is conceived when it separates from its sibling.
The conception occurs within the women when artificial insemination is used but within a test tube and then implanted when surrogacy is employed.
God simply took a part of Mary and shaped that part into the single cell that was the beginning of Jesus' flesh. Just as in the case of identical twins no male seed was used, even though a conception took place. In this way Jesus was miraculously conceived.
God did this as a sign; which he tells us in Isaiah 7:14.
Mike,
* Jesus was not one of the angels at Mamre as God did not speak through him at that time; nor is he an angel as the World to come is not subject to angels, though is subject to him.
* Scripture does state that Abraham, and the other prophets saw the day of Jesus' suffering as well as the glories that come afterwards.
* Jesus did not say he was in existence before Abraham was in existence.
It is taught about the present indicative that:
Quote With reference to time, the present indicative is usually present time, but it may be other than or broader that the present time (e.g. historical present, gnomic present). John 14:9 uses it just as Luke 15:29 does.
Quote 3. Extending-from-Past Present (Present of Past Action Still in Progress) The present tense may be used to describe an action that, begun in the past, continues in the present. The emphasis is on the present time.
Luke 15:29 I have served you for these many years.
Trinitarians tend to favor the Gnomic Present.
Quote 6. Gnomic Present The present tense may be used to make a statement of a general, timeless fact. “It does not say that something is happening, but that something does happen” (Williams, 27). The action or state continues without time limits.
2Cor 9:7 God loves [as a general, timeless fact] a cheerful giver.
I believe JW's favor the following.
Quote 7. Historical (Dramatic) Present The present tense may be used fairly frequently in narrative literature to portray a past event vividly, as though the reader were in the midst of the scene as it unfolds. [The category is frequently misunderstood; see Wallace for his discussions of exegetically significant examples.]
Matt 26:40 He came to his disciples and found them sleeping, and he said …
here is my source.
“I am with you so very long.” seems to be an English Simple Present Indicative according to this lesson
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2012,21:09) T; Conception is usually when the seed becomes one with the egg and an unformed human being comes to be. In the case of identical twins one twin is conceived when it separates from its sibling.
The conception occurs within the women when artificial insemination is used but within a test tube and then implanted when surrogacy is employed.
God simply took a part of Mary and shaped that part into the single cell that was the beginning of Jesus' flesh. Just as in the case of identical twins no male seed was used, even though a conception took place. In this way Jesus was miraculously conceived.
God did this as a sign; which he tells us in Isaiah 7:14.
Kare you a priest in the world churches
you surely talk like one the funny thing is you do not know ,and so invented that opinion , just because you cannot come to grip that Christ the son of God existed before he was send as a man ,
just as you do not understand creation ,and so do not understand God or his will ,
your arguments are all centred around a dictionary in a language you do not even understand because you have to go trough some one else to see if it fits your understanding ,
its sad ,
T,
* Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary; you disagree.
* Scripture states the Spirit of Christ comes from above; you disagree.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2012,23:13) T, * Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary; you disagree.
* Scripture states the Spirit of Christ comes from above; you disagree.
kQuote * Scripture states the Spirit of Christ comes from above; you disagree. first I can not answer your question because knowing you it would be miss interpreted ,
so to make sure that I understand your question correctly ;please tell me what is your understanding of “Spirit of Christ “
and show your scripture ,were it says that it comes from above.Quote * Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary; you disagree. I will answer you when you have answered my questions ;
BUT GOD HIS SPIRIT ,AND HIS SON HIS ALSO SPIRIT SO HOW CAN HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON BE BORN FROM A WOMAN WHEN ALL CREATION WAS DONE THROUGH HIM ???COL;1;15-20-Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth,so why would John use the word BECAME instead of conception
Hi Pierre,
Because John is speaking of “The Word” becoming flesh rather than Jesus. (see Acts 10:38)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgT;
1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Since Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary and the Word was made flesh both must be true. The mystery God has set for us is to deteermine how Scripture teaches both are true.
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2012,16:25) so why would John use the word BECAME instead of conception
Terricca………..Because words are Spirit connected that is where words come from and the anointed one “Jesus” had the “SPIRIT which produced the Words (IN) Him No word has ever become flesh while “IT” can come to be “IN” flesh but it can never be flesh itself. God and His words are ONE Just as you and yours words are one and the same, God the Father was “IN” Jesus You preexistences and Trinitarians simply do not believe what Jesus said over and over , the Father is “IN” MeYou make Jesus the Spirit of the Father that was (IN) Him which was the Father and He was the one doing the Works (IN)and Through Jesus or don't you believe what Jesus said, the Son of Man can do nothing of “HIMSELF” the Father who is “IN” him “HE” does the WORKS You people are slow of heart and deny so many scriptures and force the text to meet your false doctrines.
God was truly (IN) Jesus “via” His Holy Spirit, God is Spirit and lives vicariously in and through His creation. God the Father was 'truly “IN” Jesus, and can be “IN” us also “via” his Spirits. Don't you believe Jesus and didn't Thomas come to see this and say My Lord “AND” My GOD When is the light ever going to turn on Pierre, God the Father was reconciling the whole world to “HIMSELF” through “HIS” anointing Spirit , that was “IN” Jesus who is called the CHRIST (the anointed one). why can't you Trinitarians and Preexistences people understand that?
Problem is you Just do not understand what SPIRIT (IS) IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2012,01:58) T; 1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Since Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary and the Word was made flesh both must be true. The mystery God has set for us is to deteermine how Scripture teaches both are true.
kyou make me sick ,the way you use scriptures ;so here are the true meaning of your single scripture, see context;
1Pe 1:7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
1Pe 1:8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
1Pe 1:9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
1Pe 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these thingsit talks about the promise that was foretold by the prophets, that promise was the spirit of Christ ;yes the Christ or deliverer to come this was the spirit in witch all faithful believed in.and hope to see.
k
Quote Since Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary and the Word was made flesh both must be true. The mystery God has set for us is to deteermine how Scripture teaches both are true. like always no scriptures ,just statements without understanding, they can only be true if THE WORD =CHRIST THE SON OF GOD WAS SEND DOWN FROM HEAVEN AS HE SAYS AND AS HIS DISCIPLES SAID,YOU DO NOT BELIEVE SCRIPTURES ,YOU ONLY BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT AND THE WAY YOU FEEL LIKE IT ;THIS IS WRONG OF THE DEVIL.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2012,09:48) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2012,16:25) so why would John use the word BECAME instead of conception
Terricca………..Because words are Spirit connected that is where words come from and the anointed one “Jesus” had the “SPIRIT which produced the Words (IN) Him No word has ever become flesh while “IT” can come to be “IN” flesh but it can never be flesh itself. God and His words are ONE Just as you and yours words are one and the same, God the Father was “IN” Jesus You preexistences and Trinitarians simply do not believe what Jesus said over and over , the Father is “IN” MeYou make Jesus the Spirit of the Father that was (IN) Him which was the Father and He was the one doing the Works (IN)and Through Jesus or don't you believe what Jesus said, the Son of Man can do nothing of “HIMSELF” the Father who is “IN” him “HE” does the WORKS You people are slow of heart and deny so many scriptures and force the text to meet your false doctrines.
God was truly (IN) Jesus “via” His Holy Spirit, God is Spirit and lives vicariously in and through His creation. God the Father was 'truly “IN” Jesus, and can be “IN” us also “via” his Spirits. Don't you believe Jesus and didn't Thomas come to see this and say My Lord “AND” My GOD When is the light ever going to turn on Pierre, God the Father was reconciling the whole world to “HIMSELF” through “HIS” anointing Spirit , that was “IN” Jesus who is called the CHRIST (the anointed one). why can't you Trinitarians and Preexistences people understand that?
Problem is you Just do not understand what SPIRIT (IS) IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………….gene
GENEyou would not understand a thing,it does not matter witch way we show you,
your understanding of SPIRIT, AND WORDS,AND BEINGS,AND ANGELS HIS SO FAR AWAY FROM SCRIPTURES TRUTH ,IT IS NO FUNNY ANYMORE.
so unless you are reading scriptures what would give you some truth coming trough your mouth ,your mind is twisting the truth.
Terricca……… Exactly I would not understand it in “WHICH WAY YOU SHOW IT” you have correctly said that at least , So Produce the “ONE SCRIPTURE” that says YOUR SATAN “IS” a ANGEL . Your trash talk and slamming me mean nothing to me or for that matter anyone else, Produce you PROOF ONE SCRIPTURE will do “IF YOU CAN”.
peace and love ………………………………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2012,11:24) Terricca……… Exactly I would not understand it in “WHICH WAY YOU SHOW IT” you have correctly said that at least , So Produce the “ONE SCRIPTURE” that says YOUR SATAN “IS” a ANGEL . Your trash talk and slamming me mean nothing to me or for that matter anyone else, Produce you PROOF ONE SCRIPTURE will do “IF YOU CAN”. peace and love ………………………………………………………………gene
Gdo you ever wander why Jesus spoked to the people in parables
it says ,so they ear but do not understand ,they see and yet do not grasp ,why you think was that
now remember those were all Jews ,so they knew the scriptures,
gene
if you cannot see it with your knowledge in God,then you are blind to it ;if you cannot ear it with your heart then you are a stone ,and so cannot be healed
MT 13:15 FOR HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2012,04:24) Terricca……… Exactly I would not understand it in “WHICH WAY YOU SHOW IT” you have correctly said that at least , So Produce the “ONE SCRIPTURE” that says YOUR SATAN “IS” a ANGEL . Your trash talk and slamming me mean nothing to me or for that matter anyone else, Produce you PROOF ONE SCRIPTURE will do “IF YOU CAN”. peace and love ………………………………………………………………gene
Hi Gene, H3742כְּרוּב: cherub, plural cherubims
An angelic being — cherub, (plural) cherubims.“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon
the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.” (Ezek 28:14-15)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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