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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,03:36) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31) Where is you Scriptural proof that a being composed of spirit was transformed into a being composed of flesh?
Are you serious? Phil 2: He was existing in the form of God……….and was made into the likeness of a human being.John 1: The Word BECAME FLESH.
How many do you need, Kerwin?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31) God can transform a beast into a human and a human into a beast but Scripture does not speak of such happening.
We agree that God could do that – or anything really. And I agree that scripture doesn't speak of God transforming a beast into a human. But the scriptures I just paraphrased above DO speak of God transforming a spirit being into a human being.
Mike,They do not speak of Jehovah transforming a creature of spirit to a human being as you so falsely conclude.
Seth was made in the likeness of Adam starting from a single cell. Like Seth, Jesus was made of a woman.
Jesus has a inner self and an outer self as is common to men. His inner self, the Word, led to him to not viewing equality to Jehovah a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the inner form of a servant.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2012,23:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,03:36) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31) Where is you Scriptural proof that a being composed of spirit was transformed into a being composed of flesh?
Are you serious? Phil 2: He was existing in the form of God……….and was made into the likeness of a human being.John 1: The Word BECAME FLESH.
How many do you need, Kerwin?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31) God can transform a beast into a human and a human into a beast but Scripture does not speak of such happening.
We agree that God could do that – or anything really. And I agree that scripture doesn't speak of God transforming a beast into a human. But the scriptures I just paraphrased above DO speak of God transforming a spirit being into a human being.
Mike,They do not speak of Jehovah transforming a creature of spirit to a human being as you so falsely conclude.
Seth was made in the likeness of Adam starting from a single cell. Like Seth, Jesus was made of a woman.
Jesus has a inner self and an outer self as is common to men. His inner self, the Word, led to him to not viewing equality to Jehovah a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the inner form of a servant.
KDid scriptures not say that he was made by God
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2012,16:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,03:36) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31) Where is you Scriptural proof that a being composed of spirit was transformed into a being composed of flesh?
Are you serious? Phil 2: He was existing in the form of God……….and was made into the likeness of a human being.John 1: The Word BECAME FLESH.
How many do you need, Kerwin?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31) God can transform a beast into a human and a human into a beast but Scripture does not speak of such happening.
We agree that God could do that – or anything really. And I agree that scripture doesn't speak of God transforming a beast into a human. But the scriptures I just paraphrased above DO speak of God transforming a spirit being into a human being.
Mike,They do not speak of Jehovah transforming a creature of spirit to a human being as you so falsely conclude.
Seth was made in the likeness of Adam starting from a single cell. Like Seth, Jesus was made of a woman.
Jesus has a inner self and an outer self as is common to men. His inner self, the Word, led to him to not viewing equality to Jehovah a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the inner form of a servant.
Kerwin.How did God made the word flesh?
How can he do that?Kerwin Do you think God could bring out his living word and shape him in a being,with a spirit body?
Or is this not possible?wakeup.
Wakeup,
It is written that the new man is created in the form of God as regards the obedience to and the set aside of his Word. God does this by writing the Word on a persons heart and placing the Word in them. In this way God's Word becomes flesh; even as he revealed beforehand.
It was done first with Jesus; so that he would become the First of many brothers.
This is what we are told God did and is doing.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2012,10:06) Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 04 2012,03:05) Kerwin. How did God made the word flesh?
How can he do that?wakeup.
Wakeup,It is written that the new man is created in the form of God as regards the obedience to and the set aside of his Word. God does this by writing the Word on a persons heart and placing the Word in them. In this way God's Word becomes flesh; even as he revealed beforehand.
It was done first with Jesus; so that he would become the First of many brothers.
This is what we are told God did and is doing.
Amen!Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2012,11:32) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2012,23:23)
Mike,They do not speak of Jehovah transforming a creature of spirit to a human being as you so falsely conclude.
Seth was made in the likeness of Adam starting from a single cell. Like Seth, Jesus was made of a woman.
Jesus has a inner self and an outer self as is common to men. His inner self, the Word, led to him to not viewing equality to Jehovah a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the inner form of a servant.
KDid scriptures not say that he was made by God
T,It does as it is written:
Matthew 1
King James Version (KJV)20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2012,10:06) Wakeup, It is written that the new man is created in the form of God as regards the obedience to and the set aside of his Word. God does this by writing the Word on a persons heart and placing the Word in them. In this way God's Word becomes flesh; even as he revealed beforehand.
It was done first with Jesus; so that he would become the First of many brothers.
This is what we are told God did and is doing.
Kerwin.This is something new to me.
Where is all that written?Some one that has excepted Christ;God would put his word in him;and that word becomes flesh. This means that a non believer has different flesh to a believer: is that so?
And what happened if that beliver has gone back sliding to the world? will that flesh change again to the previous condition?Are you saying that the WORD was not the only one that was made flesh? Is he not unique?
Strange;really because the WORD was made flesh by birth.I always thought that the flesh is always against the spirit,and the spirit is always against the flesh,they can not mix,just as water and oil. The spirit wants to do good, but the flesh says ,no what for,maybe next time.
And I also thought that God did not PUT THE SPIRIT IN US; but we have to SEEK to get the spirit.
wakeup.
Something is not right somehow.
wakeup.
Wakeup,
Quote This is something new to me.
Where is all that written?I paraphrased what is written.
The words “It is written that the new man is created in the form of God as regards the obedience to and the set aside of his Word” express the same idea as Ephsians 4:24.
The words “God does this by writing the Word on a persons heart and placing the Word in them” expresses the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33.
The words “In this way God's Word becomes flesh; even as he revealed beforehand” are a conclusion based on the first two Scriptures.
The words “It was done first with Jesus; so that he would become the First of many brothers” comes from Romans 8:29.
The words “This is what we are told God did and is doing” are a conclusion derived from the above.
Quote Some one that has excepted Christ;God would put his word in him;and that word becomes flesh. This means that a non believer has different flesh to a believer: is that so?
And what happened if that beliver has gone back sliding to the world? will that flesh change again to the previous condition?The old man is the inner man that falls short of God's glory and does not have the Word written on his heart or placed in him, Ephesians 4:22 and Romans 3:23.
The old man becomes flesh when he takes on the charicteristic of flesh; the same is true of the new man.
Quote Are you saying that the WORD was not the only one that was made flesh? Is he not unique? Strange;really because the WORD was made flesh by birth. Adam and Eve were created in the form of God's righteousness and holiness; for it is written:
Genesis 1:27
King James Version (KJV)27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Therefore Jesus was not unique in that way but is instead unique in that he did not go in search of many schemes; even as is common to the rest of humanity, Ecclesiastes 7:29. His uniqness made him the First of many brothers as well as the way by which the Word is written on the hearts and placed within believers; just as he declared he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, John 14:6.
Quote I always thought that the flesh is always against the spirit,and the spirit is always against the flesh,they can not mix,just as water and oil. The spirit wants to do good, but the flesh says ,no what for,maybe next time. The old man walks according to the flesh and the new man according to God's Spirit even though they both have the trait of flesh; as they dwell in it.
Quote And I also thought that God did not PUT THE SPIRIT IN US; but we have to SEEK to get the spirit. We are to seek to obtain the Spirit by faith before God places it in us by his grace. Once we have received it we are to seek to live by it through the same faith; and those that live by it, do so by the same grace.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2012,17:44) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2012,11:32) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2012,23:23)
Mike,They do not speak of Jehovah transforming a creature of spirit to a human being as you so falsely conclude.
Seth was made in the likeness of Adam starting from a single cell. Like Seth, Jesus was made of a woman.
Jesus has a inner self and an outer self as is common to men. His inner self, the Word, led to him to not viewing equality to Jehovah a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the inner form of a servant.
KDid scriptures not say that he was made by God
T,It does as it is written:
Matthew 1
King James Version (KJV)20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
kexplain this scriptures just as Paul say it and all his listener understand it ;;
Ro 1:2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
Ro 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
Ro 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
Ro 1:6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2012,11:31) k explain this scriptures just as Paul say it and all his listener understand it ;;
Ro 1:2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
Ro 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
Ro 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
Ro 1:6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
T,A believer follows Jesus by receiving and living by the Spirit; even while wearing flesh that reveal them as a descendant of Adam.
Jesus the first to live by the Spirit; even to tasting death; did not earn the wages of sin; which is death, but instead escaped Death which has no hold on him, Acts 2:24. Jesus also bears flesh that declares him to be a descendant of David and of Adam, Matthew 1:1-16.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2012,16:07) Wakeup, Quote This is something new to me.
Where is all that written?I paraphrased what is written.
The words “It is written that the new man is created in the form of God as regards the obedience to and the set aside of his Word” express the same idea as Ephsians 4:24.
The words “God does this by writing the Word on a persons heart and placing the Word in them” expresses the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33.
The words “In this way God's Word becomes flesh; even as he revealed beforehand” are a conclusion based on the first two Scriptures.
The words “It was done first with Jesus; so that he would become the First of many brothers” comes from Romans 8:29.
The words “This is what we are told God did and is doing” are a conclusion derived from the above.
Quote Some one that has excepted Christ;God would put his word in him;and that word becomes flesh. This means that a non believer has different flesh to a believer: is that so?
And what happened if that beliver has gone back sliding to the world? will that flesh change again to the previous condition?The old man is the inner man that falls short of God's glory and does not have the Word written on his heart or placed in him, Ephesians 4:22 and Romans 3:23.
The old man becomes flesh when he takes on the charicteristic of flesh; the same is true of the new man.
Quote Are you saying that the WORD was not the only one that was made flesh? Is he not unique? Strange;really because the WORD was made flesh by birth. Adam and Eve were created in the form of God's righteousness and holiness; for it is written:
Genesis 1:27
King James Version (KJV)27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Therefore Jesus was not unique in that way but is instead unique in that he did not go in search of many schemes; even as is common to the rest of humanity, Ecclesiastes 7:29. His uniqness made him the First of many brothers as well as the way by which the Word is written on the hearts and placed within believers; just as he declared he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, John 14:6.
Quote I always thought that the flesh is always against the spirit,and the spirit is always against the flesh,they can not mix,just as water and oil. The spirit wants to do good, but the flesh says ,no what for,maybe next time. The old man walks according to the flesh and the new man according to God's Spirit even though they both have the trait of flesh; as they dwell in it.
Quote And I also thought that God did not PUT THE SPIRIT IN US; but we have to SEEK to get the spirit. We are to seek to obtain the Spirit by faith before God places it in us by his grace. Once we have received it we are to seek to live by it through the same faith; and those that live by it, do so by the same grace.
Kerwin.Jesus simply said; the word that I speak to you they are spirit: not flesh.
Here you are saying that the word became flesh in us??
Is this mans concept?
wakeup.
Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us, this is a sense of speaking not a real fact because no “word” ever has became flesh, Words are Spirit according to Jesus and so they could never be flash. the word i am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “LIFE” , all it takes is to believe what Jesus said. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,23:09) Mike, There are times you think you have a point which I think is foolishness. One such is going to Descartes' words which equated thinking to existence.
Is this your way of ACKNOWLEDGING to the rest of us that you DO understand the simple FACT that Descartes equated thinking to existence?Kudos for you, Kerwin! Did the truth set you free?
Now, if the words “I am” (in the absense of any conflicting context) simply mean “I exist”, what do they mean when Jesus said them in John 8:58?
Consider this context, Kerwin:
Mike, surely you are younger than your brother Brad, right?
Truly I say to you Kerwin, before my brother Brad ginomai, I am.
Using THIS context, one would have to be CONFUSED to think it meant ANYTHING other than, I have been in existence longer than my brother Brad. So what do YOU think my answer to you meant in that example, Kerwin?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,23:09) Why would you think you could fool anyone by insisting that the flawed conclusion of the unbelieving Jews is true?
And why do YOU keep making this same claim? I have told you TWICE already that the Jews were NOT right. But what exactly were the Jews wrong about in 8:57-58, Kerwin? They were wrong about Jesus not seeing Abraham because he was less than 50 years old. That is what the CONTEXT tells us.But here's the clincher: YOU keep bringing up the “flawed conclusion of the unbelieving Jews” – when YOU are the one who believes the very thing Jesus proved them wrong about!
Can't you see that both YOU and the Jews think that Jesus was a man who, up until that point, had not even existed for 50 years yet? So by highlighting the Jews “flawed conclusion”, you simultaneously highlight YOUR OWN “flawed conclusion” – because they are one and the same!
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,23:09) Professor Jason BeDuhn is a hypocrite as he does just as he accuses other translators of doing. Anyone can see that as 'I am” is present tense……………
Jason BeDuhn has probably FORGOTTEN more about the Greek language than you or I will ever learn in the first place, Kerwin. He graduated Harvard with a Masters in New Testament and Christian Origins. He is currently the Professor of Religious Studies at Northern Arizona University. This guy lives, breathes, studies, and teaches the Greek NT.You have made a bold statement condemning him, but let's see if you can put your money where your mouth is:
John 14:9
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?The bolded words above are written in the PRESENT tense, just like in 8:58 – yet virtually every English translation renders the present “I am” as a past “I have been”.
This is one of the “idiomatic uses” of “I am” that Professor Be Duhn mentioned in the excerpt I posted for you.
Kerwin, do you think that, in John 14:9, Jesus is talking about HAVING BEEN with Philip for a long time?
Or do you think he is saying he WILL BE with Philip for a long time?
WHICH ONE, PLEASE?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 04 2012,08:43) Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us……………
But Gene,As I've told you 100 times already, John 1:14 DOESN'T say, “The Word came to be IN someone who was flesh”.
Instead, it says “The Word BECAME flesh”.
Adding the word “IN” into that scripture changes the entire context and teaching – which is why you do it. But does ADDING our own words to CHANGE the teaching really result in the “truth” of the scripture?
Don't feel so all alone, though – for Kerwin does the same thing. He doesn't come right out and put the word “IN” in parenthesis like you do, but if you read his recent posts to Wakeup on this thread, it is clear that his understanding only works if the word “IN” is added to 1:14.
Here is what he just said to Wakeup:
Quote God does this by…………..placing the Word in them. It was done first with Jesus……………..
See? His understanding also relies on believing that God placed the Word IN Jesus. Yet John 1:14 doesn't teach any such thing. It teaches that “the Word BECAME flesh” – not that “the Word was placed IN someone who was already flesh”.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2012,00:55) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2012,11:31) k explain this scriptures just as Paul say it and all his listener understand it ;;
Ro 1:2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
Ro 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
Ro 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
Ro 1:6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
T,A believer follows Jesus by receiving and living by the Spirit; even while wearing flesh that reveal them as a descendant of Adam.
Jesus the first to live by the Spirit; even to tasting death; did not earn the wages of sin; which is death, but instead escaped Death which has no hold on him, Acts 2:24. Jesus also bears flesh that declares him to be a descendant of David and of Adam, Matthew 1:1-16.
kQuote Jesus the first to live by the Spirit SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE TO THIS
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2012,03:12) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 04 2012,08:43) Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us……………
But Gene,As I've told you 100 times already, John 1:14 DOESN'T say, “The Word came to be IN someone who was flesh”.
Instead, it says “The Word BECAME flesh”.
Adding the word “IN” into that scripture changes the entire context and teaching – which is why you do it. But does ADDING our own words to CHANGE the teaching really result in the “truth” of the scripture?
Don't feel so all alone, though – for Kerwin does the same thing. He doesn't come right out and put the word “IN” in parenthesis like you do, but if you read his recent posts to Wakeup on this thread, it is clear that his understanding only works if the word “IN” is added to 1:14.
Here is what he just said to Wakeup:
Quote God does this by…………..placing the Word in them. It was done first with Jesus……………..
See? His understanding also relies on believing that God placed the Word IN Jesus. Yet John 1:14 doesn't teach any such thing. It teaches that “the Word BECAME flesh” – not that “the Word was placed IN someone who was already flesh”.
Hi Mike,“Believest thou not that I in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 05 2012,17:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2012,03:12) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 04 2012,08:43) Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us……………
But Gene,As I've told you 100 times already, John 1:14 DOESN'T say, “The Word came to be IN someone who was flesh”.
Instead, it says “The Word BECAME flesh”.
Adding the word “IN” into that scripture changes the entire context and teaching – which is why you do it. But does ADDING our own words to CHANGE the teaching really result in the “truth” of the scripture?
Don't feel so all alone, though – for Kerwin does the same thing. He doesn't come right out and put the word “IN” in parenthesis like you do, but if you read his recent posts to Wakeup on this thread, it is clear that his understanding only works if the word “IN” is added to 1:14.
Here is what he just said to Wakeup:
Quote God does this by…………..placing the Word in them. It was done first with Jesus……………..
See? His understanding also relies on believing that God placed the Word IN Jesus. Yet John 1:14 doesn't teach any such thing. It teaches that “the Word BECAME flesh” – not that “the Word was placed IN someone who was already flesh”.
Hi Mike,“Believest thou not that I in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjwe can not be in God ,because it would mean that God follows our will,
but Gods will can be in us because we follow his will,and so not ours
Wakeup,
Quote Kerwin. Jesus simply said; the word that I speak to you they are spirit: not flesh.
Here you are saying that the word became flesh in us??
Is this mans concept?
wakeup.
Consider that it is written:
1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version (KJV)14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
There is no contradiction as Jesus' words are of the Spirit and not of the flesh.
It is not a man concept as humanity by nature rejects the promise that God will write his Word on their hearts and place it in their inward being because they do not love the light.
T,
Quote SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE TO THIS You know we are to follow Jesus; so I don't know why you ask for me to reveal that Jesus was the first to live by the Spirit.
Galatians 5
King James Version (KJV)19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.Does Jesus walk by the Spirit or the flesh? As he lived; so are we to follow him.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2012,01:43) Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us, this is a sense of speaking not a real fact because no “word” ever has became flesh, Words are Spirit according to Jesus and so they could never be flash. the word i am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “LIFE” , all it takes is to believe what Jesus said. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………….gene
GEneB.Why try to change the scripture?
John 1:14.simply says''and the word was =MADE= flesh.''
Was Jesus resurrected in the spirit:Yes; and he appeared to the apostles in the flesh,ate and drank with them,then went off in the spirit; then appeared somewhere else in the flesh again.
Do you realy think that this is impossible?
Is this too hard to believe?wakeup.
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