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Mike,
You are correct that “perfected” is an interpretive translation; the “to become” is more literal.
I have come across a lot of aorist that are not translated as simple past tenses. I have already quoted several aorist infinitives that are not translated past tense. Perceived context appears to be what influences the experts’ choice to translate it as such.
I have discovered the middle voice is used with the word “ginomai” in cases when context appears to reveal that born or made seems the more likely translation.
“ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Matthew 5:18, Matthew 24:34, and Luke 21:32 of the KJV. I simply equate God’s word being fulfilled in a person as them being made perfect.
You need to stop playing games and accept the truth that the unbelieving Jews are wrong and that before Abraham is fulfilled, Jesus is.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2012,11:56) Oh, you mean like if we could produce a scripture where Jesus SPECIFICALLY says, “I came down from heaven”? Or maybe one where Jesus SPECIFICALLY speaks about the glory he had alongside God before the world began?
If only we could find a scripture where Jesus SPECIFICALLY said, “No one has gone into heaven, except for the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man”.
Boy, it sure is too bad for us that no scriptures like that exist, Gene.
Mike…………Yes lets deal with those scriptures if you are so sure they mean “SPECIFICALLY” what you “THINK” they do , you will find they do not mean what you assume they do and that is is you past Trinitarian and Preexistence perceptions that are blinding you from understanding the truth that Jesus never existed before his berth on this earth. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2012,09:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2012,11:56) Oh, you mean like if we could produce a scripture where Jesus SPECIFICALLY says, “I came down from heaven”? Or maybe one where Jesus SPECIFICALLY speaks about the glory he had alongside God before the world began?
If only we could find a scripture where Jesus SPECIFICALLY said, “No one has gone into heaven, except for the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man”.
Boy, it sure is too bad for us that no scriptures like that exist, Gene.
Mike…………Yes lets deal with those scriptures if you are so sure they mean “SPECIFICALLY” what you “THINK” they do , you will find they do not mean what you assume they do and that is is you past Trinitarian and Preexistence perceptions that are blinding you from understanding the truth that Jesus never existed before his berth on this earth. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene
geneall you understanding runs around your idea that Christ his a man only and that for some reason God chose a MAN to save all off creation,and so this Man Called Jesus Christ did not exist prior to his birth as a man ,even if he says otherwise ,
so we will never come to your faulty believe ,because you have to twist many scriptures and that is what can not be done by anyone that s take Gods word in his heart ,
Terrica………So you now deny Jesus was a Man, now that is interesting, and so since Sin entered in by man, Jesus could not be the sacrifice to remove it, in your preexistence theology becasue Jesus was not a Man . But scripture says and demonstrated he was a Man , and as a SON of MAN could qualify to redeem us all. Your work of separating Jesus' identity from man is a false teaching IMO
As i have said over and over Trinitarians and Preexistences are both in the same boat of preaching deceptions . You don't even believe Jesus' words himself saying over and over 70 or 80 time he was a “SON of MAN”. And you accuse me of having a faulty belief and twisting scriptures. That is a JOKE at best Pierre> You Trinitarian Roots have bound you IMO>
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2012,13:16) Terrica………So you now deny Jesus was a Man, now that is interesting, and so since Sin entered in by man, Jesus could not be the sacrifice to remove it, in your preexistence theology becasue Jesus was not a Man . But scripture says and demonstrated he was a Man , and as a SON of MAN could qualify to redeem us all. Your work of separating Jesus' identity from man is a false teaching IMO As i have said over and over Trinitarians and Preexistences are both in the same boat of preaching deceptions . You don't even believe Jesus' words himself saying over and over 70 or 80 time he was a “SON of MAN”. And you accuse me of having a faulty belief and twisting scriptures. That is a JOKE at best Pierre> You Trinitarian Roots have bound you IMO>
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………..gene
genesee gene ,this is what you do in scriptures,and blind yourself,with your own ideas,
did I say that I do not believe that Christ came down from heaven and took the cover of a man
NO i did not deny this ,but your purpose is not truth so you take the liberty of what you feel it should be ,not all of us think this way ,and me in particular do not ,
Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. You preach what the Gnostic's Preached , they believed Jesus was in “DISGUISE” as a Human but really was not a Man as we are. Your teachings and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians all are in lines with the Gnostic's teachings about Jesus coming from the Pelora of the GODS, Sent by the Gods to straighten out this earth. This whole teaching denies Jesus' humanity. and His work as a plain Human Being and More it denies God the Fathers perfecting work in a fellow Human Being through his “anointing spirit” also., so in effect preexistences and trinitarians are not only are denying Jesus but the Father also. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………………………
…………geneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2012,09:01) Mike…………Yes lets deal with those scriptures if you are so sure they mean “SPECIFICALLY” what you “THINK” they do , you will find they do not mean what you assume they do and that is is you past Trinitarian and Preexistence perceptions that are blinding you from understanding the truth that Jesus never existed before his berth on this earth.
Oh I see. Not only does John 8:58 not really mean what it clearly says, but neither do any of the other three supporting scriptures I gave? Okay Gene.I'm sure you're right, that all of those scriptures mean NONSENSICAL things like, “the thought of me in God's head had glory before the world began” – instead of the most obvious, logical meaning to the words written.
Whatever.
Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2012,21:20) “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Matthew 5:18, Matthew 24:34, and Luke 21:32 of the KJV. I simply equate God’s word being fulfilled in a person as them being made perfect.
Okay Kerwin,Remember the two deals I offered you. Are you bailing on the first one because you can't find a sane person in the whole world who thinks “I am” means “I am THINKING” in Descartes' statement?
Does that mean you're ready to ACKNOWLEDGE to all of us what I'm sure you've known to be the truth since the first time you ever heard his statement? Are you ready to man up and clearly ADMIT that, I think, therefore I am means I think, therefore I exist?
Now on to the second deal I made you: If you cannot show a REASON for Jesus to be saying “fulfilled” or “perfected”, you must accept the OBVIOUS translation of what Jesus was saying in John 8:58.
Let's try yours on for size:
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”What are the Jews commenting about here, Kerwin?
1. Are they speaking about something being “perfected”, or “fulfilled”?
2. Or are they talking about the AGE of Jesus, and the fact that his AGE of less than 50 years would likely prohibit him from having ever seen Abraham?
Which one, Kerwin?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2012,16:29) Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. You preach what the Gnostic's Preached , they believed Jesus was in “DISGUISE” as a Human but really was not a Man as we are. Your teachings and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians all are in lines with the Gnostic's teachings about Jesus coming from the Pelora of the GODS, Sent by the Gods to straighten out this earth. This whole teaching denies Jesus' humanity. and His work as a plain Human Being and More it denies God the Fathers perfecting work in a fellow Human Being through his “anointing spirit” also., so in effect preexistences and trinitarians are not only are denying Jesus but the Father also. IMO peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………………………
…………gene
gQuote Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. He was the son of God as the first creation,and he became like man ,to give his live as a man so that we can be saved ';NO MAN BORN TO ADAM CAN PAY THE RANSOM OF HIS LIVE ,NOT FOR HIMSELF NEVER MIND FOR OTHERS,
THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD ,AND HIS SON FOR THE RIGHTEOUS,
UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS NOT HIS HUMANITY THAT IS IMPORTANT BUT HIS SACRIFICE ,AND THE LOVE OF GOD THAT MADE IT POSIBLE ,
THE SPIRIT IN CHRIST THAT MADE IT POSSIBLE WAS THAT HE LOVED HIS FATHER EVEN UNTIL DEAD,ALL FOR HIS FATHERS LOVE AND WILL
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2012,16:29) Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man.
Gene,What is your basis for making this claim? If scripture says Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made into a human being, then why couldn't this human being have “come down from heaven”?
God can make sons of Abraham out of stones, Gene. Can He not make one out of a spirit being?
Anyway, where is your scriptural proof that a spirit being cannot be made into a human being? Where is your scriptural proof to back up the words you said here?
Mike,
Quote Remember the two deals I offered you. Are you bailing on the first one because you can't find a sane person in the whole world who thinks “I am” means “I am THINKING” in Descartes' statement? I bail because it has become a useless conversation. It has become useless because it is irrelevant as I have already pointed to Scripture where “I am” means “I am he” or “I am Christ”.
What does “I am” mean in this statement “Before Abraham is to become, I am”, when the discussion is about Abraham being the father of those that believe and the Jews and “to become” being a past and/or future action?
I quoted this because “genesthai” is used here as well. It is the same word used in exactly the same way and speaking of Abraham; and his seed, which is reckoned through his faith.
Romans 4:18
King James Version (KJV)18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, so shall thy seed be.
Quote Let's try yours on for size:
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”What are the Jews commenting about here, Kerwin?
1. Are they speaking about something being “perfected”, or “fulfilled”?
2. Or are they talking about the AGE of Jesus, and the fact that his AGE of less than 50 years would likely prohibit him from having ever seen Abraham?
They are voicing their lack of understanding as they did in John 8:52-53, 48, and 33.
1) Jesus did not say he saw Abraham.
2) Abraham, a prophet saw Jesus’ day of execution and the glory to follow.
3) Abraham was in Sheol when Jesus was executed; even though he saw the self sacrifice while he was yet in his mortal flesh.Unbelievers are not a creditable source of doctrine. Jesus is the Seed through who Abraham has and is to become the father of many nations and Jesus is the One through who Abraham is to be fulfilled.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2012,06:05) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2012,16:29) Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man.
Gene,What is your basis for making this claim? If scripture says Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made into a human being, then why couldn't this human being have “come down from heaven”?
God can make sons of Abraham out of stones, Gene. Can He not make one out of a spirit being?
Anyway, where is your scriptural proof that a spirit being cannot be made into a human being? Where is your scriptural proof to back up the words you said here?
Mike,“might” is nothing.
Where is you Scriptural proof that a being composed of spirit was transformed into a being composed of flesh?
The two males who warned Lot revealed they were not composed of spirit by eating and touching Lot; were nevertheless called Messengers, and not humans.
God can transform a beast into a human and a human into a beast but Scripture does not speak of such happening.
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2012,10:42) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2012,16:29) Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. You preach what the Gnostic's Preached , they believed Jesus was in “DISGUISE” as a Human but really was not a Man as we are. Your teachings and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians all are in lines with the Gnostic's teachings about Jesus coming from the Pelora of the GODS, Sent by the Gods to straighten out this earth. This whole teaching denies Jesus' humanity. and His work as a plain Human Being and More it denies God the Fathers perfecting work in a fellow Human Being through his “anointing spirit” also., so in effect preexistences and trinitarians are not only are denying Jesus but the Father also. IMO peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………………………
…………gene
gQuote Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. He was the son of God as the first creation,and he became like man ,to give his live as a man so that we can be saved ';NO MAN BORN TO ADAM CAN PAY THE RANSOM OF HIS LIVE ,NOT FOR HIMSELF NEVER MIND FOR OTHERS,
THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD ,AND HIS SON FOR THE RIGHTEOUS,
UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS NOT HIS HUMANITY THAT IS IMPORTANT BUT HIS SACRIFICE ,AND THE LOVE OF GOD THAT MADE IT POSIBLE ,
THE SPIRIT IN CHRIST THAT MADE IT POSSIBLE WAS THAT HE LOVED HIS FATHER EVEN UNTIL DEAD,ALL FOR HIS FATHERS LOVE AND WILL
Pierre………….Heb 3:3 say he was a Man. In Genesis God said “HER SEED” would bruise Satan's head, and as far as i am concerned all “SEED” of Women are human Beings ,ot “MORPHED” Being of any kind.peace and love …………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 03 2012,10:23) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2012,10:42) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2012,16:29) Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. You preach what the Gnostic's Preached , they believed Jesus was in “DISGUISE” as a Human but really was not a Man as we are. Your teachings and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians all are in lines with the Gnostic's teachings about Jesus coming from the Pelora of the GODS, Sent by the Gods to straighten out this earth. This whole teaching denies Jesus' humanity. and His work as a plain Human Being and More it denies God the Fathers perfecting work in a fellow Human Being through his “anointing spirit” also., so in effect preexistences and trinitarians are not only are denying Jesus but the Father also. IMO peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………………………
…………gene
gQuote Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. He was the son of God as the first creation,and he became like man ,to give his live as a man so that we can be saved ';NO MAN BORN TO ADAM CAN PAY THE RANSOM OF HIS LIVE ,NOT FOR HIMSELF NEVER MIND FOR OTHERS,
THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD ,AND HIS SON FOR THE RIGHTEOUS,
UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS NOT HIS HUMANITY THAT IS IMPORTANT BUT HIS SACRIFICE ,AND THE LOVE OF GOD THAT MADE IT POSIBLE ,
THE SPIRIT IN CHRIST THAT MADE IT POSSIBLE WAS THAT HE LOVED HIS FATHER EVEN UNTIL DEAD,ALL FOR HIS FATHERS LOVE AND WILL
Pierre………….Heb 3:3 say he was a Man. In Genesis God said “HER SEED” would bruise Satan's head, and as far as i am concerned all “SEED” of Women are human Beings ,ot “MORPHED” Being of any kind.peace and love …………………………………….gene
genelets correct your statement :ALL SEED OF A MAN ARE MAN,
SO YOU ARE ONLY HALF RIGHT ;
because the main seed is of God , Christ father his God ,and it is with the power of his that he made Christ to become a man ,so to fullfil his own written words,
PR 17:2 A servant who acts wisely will rule over a son who acts shamefully,
And will share in the inheritance among brothers.MAL 1:6 “ ‘A son honors his father, and a servant his master. Then if I am a father, where is My honor? And if I am a master, where is My respect?’ says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. But you say, ‘How have we despised Your name?’
RO 15:8 For I say that Christ HAS become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,
GE 17:12 “And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your seed.
ZEC 11:16 “For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.
AC 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
RO 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
RO 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all,
RO 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.
2CO 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
2CO 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
Heb 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.Heb 2:6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
Heb 2:8 and put everything under his feet.”In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Heb 2:11 Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
Heb 2:12 He says,
“I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.”
Heb 2:13 And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”And again he says,
“Here am I, and the children God has given me.”
Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
Heb 2:15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
Heb 2:16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
Heb 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.God give Gene understanding so he can see not with the flesh but with your spirit ,
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:20) I bail because it has become a useless conversation.
I can see why YOU would consider it “useless”, because YOU'RE on the losing end of it. But it is not “useless” to me, Kerwin. I want a clear statement from you that “I think, therefore I am” means “I think, therefore I EXIST”. If you cannot produce any evidence from the history of mankind where someone of reputation thought it meant anything other than this, than you need to accept and acknowledge that “I am” means “I exist” in that statement.Will you acknowledge this OBVIOUS FACT? Or will you continue to play games because you know that admitting what you already know to be the truth will hurt your stance on John 8:58? (That's right Kerwin, the rest of us can EASILY see the reason why a seemingly intelligent person would have trouble admitting something that is so obvious to even a 5 year old.)
So, do you have a SUPPORTED alternative meaning to “I think, therefore I am”? If not, then go ahead and ADMIT to us what you already know to be the truth of the matter. It will do your soul some good to acknowledge truth.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:20) What does “I am” mean in this statement “Before Abraham is to become, I am”,
Where did the word “is” come from?Now, you already KNOW, from the two (of MANY) scriptures I recently posted for you, that “ginomai” in the second aorist OFTEN TIMES has a past tense meaning.
You already KNOW, from the NETNotes info I posted, that the Greek aorist tense is, in their words, “generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations”.
And you already KNOW, from John 14:9, that the Greek present tense “I am” sometimes has an English meaning of “I have been”.
I'm going to add one more piece of expert information to these things you already KNOW. This is an excerpt from a book written by Greek expert, Professor Jason BeDuhn:
“The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate. All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English. These changes in the meaning of the Greek and in the normal procedure for translation point to a bias that has interfered with the work of the translators. No one listening to Jesus, and no one reading John in his own time would have picked up on a divine self-identification in the mere expression ‘I am’, which, if you think about it, is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language. The NWT understands the relation between the two verbs correctly. The average Bible reader might never guess that there was something wrong with the other translations, and might even assume that the error was to be found in the NWT.”
And here's how the NWT translates John 8:58,
Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”So after applying all these things that you now KNOW, tell me TRUTHFULLY if you can fault the NWT translation of 8:58. Can you?
And I'll even add to this list one more thing…………..CONTEXT!
John 8:57 NWT
Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”The Jews were making a claim about the AGE of Jesus, implying that he could not have possibly ever seen Abraham, because he hadn't even been alive for 50 years yet.
Jesus' answer was to tell them that before Abraham ever existed, he had already been in existence.
Kerwin, you can keep playing games all you want. You can keep PRETENDING that you don't realize “I am” in Descartes' statement can mean nothing other than “I exist” – but know for a fact that we can see right through your charade. Know that we can see the bias that drives you to that charade.
You can keep PRETENDING that Jesus was talking about being “perfected” before Abraham was to be “perfected” – but know for a fact that we can see how you have to ADD your own words into the sentence to keep from acknowledging the pre-existence of your Lord. (You and Gene do this in MANY scriptures.) Know that we can see the BIAS that would lead you to “not understand” the simple context of this passage.
Kerwin, you are not fooling anyone here except for Gene.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31) Where is you Scriptural proof that a being composed of spirit was transformed into a being composed of flesh?
Are you serious? Phil 2: He was existing in the form of God……….and was made into the likeness of a human being.John 1: The Word BECAME FLESH.
How many do you need, Kerwin?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31) God can transform a beast into a human and a human into a beast but Scripture does not speak of such happening.
We agree that God could do that – or anything really. And I agree that scripture doesn't speak of God transforming a beast into a human. But the scriptures I just paraphrased above DO speak of God transforming a spirit being into a human being.Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2012,14:33) God give Gene understanding so he can see not with the flesh but with your spirit ,
…….through the name of your Holy Servant Jesus Christ, Amen.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,15:38) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2012,14:33) God give Gene understanding so he can see not with the flesh but with your spirit ,
…….through the name of your Holy Servant Jesus Christ, Amen.
of cause their is no other wayI wasn't correcting – just joining in with the prayer. I too would love nothing more than for that prayer to be answered.
Mike,
There are times you think you have a point which I think is foolishness. One such is going to Descartes' words which equated thinking to existence.
In this example Descartes words placed in a different context take on a different meaning.
What are you doing?
I think.
Are you considering?
I think therefore I am.Why would you think you could fool anyone by insisting that the flawed conclusion of the unbelieving Jews is true?
Professor Jason BeDuhn is a hypocrite as he does just as he accuses other translators of doing. Anyone can see that as 'I am” is present tense and given that aorist infinitives can be translated either to past or future tense, depending on the context, then it is reasonable to conclude that the action performed by and to Abraham's benefit occurred after the present and not before.
I have no problem with translating the aorist infinitive of “to become” as past tense since Jesus was predestined to be the Christ even before the creation of the world.
The stronger argument is that before Abraham is to become the Father of Many Nations, Jesus is the one by whom he does it.
Facts that support it being the strongest argument.
1) It answers the unbelievers question of who he is; as did Jesus' words about Abraham seeing his day.
2) The verb forms are correct.
3) The same verb and form is used elsewhere to reveal Abraham is the Father of many nations by his faith.
4) It is a true statement.
As I stated from the beginning, Jesus' words are vague but there is a reason the Spirit chose to be vague.
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