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Kerwin,
Do you agree that “existing in the form of God” is PAST TENSE, otherwise Paul would have been writing about the form Jesus was in AT THE TIME Paul actually wrote the letter? YES or NO?
And Jesus cannot be in the form of God and in the form of a servant at the same time. He could be in the form of God UP UNTIL THE VERY LAST SECOND before taking the form of a servant, but not both at the same time. At least not in this context – unless you believe God is a servant. Paul was CONTRASTING one form Jesus was in from a DIFFERENT form Jesus was in. Can you see that?
Kerwin, do YOU have anything to add to my last post to Gene – seeing how you and he have shared the view that root and branch carry the same metaphorical meaning?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,05:27) Kerwin, Do you agree that “existing in the form of God” is PAST TENSE, otherwise Paul would have been writing about the form Jesus was in AT THE TIME Paul actually wrote the letter? YES or NO?
And Jesus cannot be in the form of God and in the form of a servant at the same time. He could be in the form of God UP UNTIL THE VERY LAST SECOND before taking the form of a servant, but not both at the same time. At least not in this context – unless you believe God is a servant. Paul was CONTRASTING one form Jesus was in from a DIFFERENT form Jesus was in. Can you see that?
Mike;The present tense is to reveal an ongoing action that resulted in certain past actions. It's use does not reveal whether or not that same action continues to this day; but only that is resulted in other actions.
According to you angels have both the form of God and of servants concurrently.
You are trying to argue that Jesus emptied himself of the outer nature of Jehovah, which you believe is like that of the angels, and put on the outer nature of a human being.
Jesus saw equality with God as something not to be grasped and so chose to make himself nothing. While Jehovah is the one that made him in the likeness of humanity. Jesus did not choose to be in the likeness of humanity; he was made that way.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,05:29) Kerwin, do YOU have anything to add to my last post to Gene – seeing how you and he have shared the view that root and branch carry the same metaphorical meaning?
Mike,It seems to me that Jesus is the Rod of Jesse and the church is the Branch that grows out of his roots.
A root is the member or faction of a household as used in Deuteronomy 29:18.
Actually, it is scriptural that Jesus is BOTH the rod AND the root of Jesse.
Can you show any scripture where a root is not “what comes before”? In 29:18 it certainly refers to one who worships another god FIRST, thereby causing others to follow.
Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,03:21) Mike; The present tense is to reveal an ongoing action that resulted in certain past actions.
Please explain:Phil 2:6
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped……….In your explanation, it means Jesus is NOW existing in the form of God AS THE RESULT OF not considering equality with God something to be grasped. Is that correct?
Or is it more accurate to say that, at the time Paul wrote his letter, he was saying, “Jesus WAS/HAD BEEN existing in the form of God………..”?
My question that you keep avoiding with your diversion is:
Was Paul talking in the present, saying that Jesus IS NOW existing in the form of God (from his point of view when he wrote the letter)?
Or was Paul speaking of a time BEFORE Jesus was exalted to heaven, and therefore meaning “Jesus WAS existing in the form of God…..”
Kerwin, was Paul referring to Jesus existing in the form of God while he was on earth? If you say “YES”, then you are also understanding “existing” as a PAST ACTION from Paul's point of view.
Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,20:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,05:29) Kerwin, do YOU have anything to add to my last post to Gene – seeing how you and he have shared the view that root and branch carry the same metaphorical meaning?
Mike,It seems to me that Jesus is the Rod of Jesse and the church is the Branch that grows out of his roots.
A root is the member or faction of a household as used in Deuteronomy 29:18.
Kerwin.Did Mary have to change baby Jesus nappies,and gave her breast for milk?
wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,03:21) While Jehovah is the one that made him in the likeness of humanity. Jesus did not choose to be in the likeness of humanity; he was made that way.
And was Jesus in any other form before being made in the likeness of a human being?It seems to me that the non-preexisters really don't know what to make of Phil 2. You all want to say Jesus was a human being when “existing in the form of God”, yet don't know how to explain how someone who already was a human being could be made in the likeness of a human being.
Quote (Wakeup @ July 15 2012,03:11) Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,20:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,05:29) Kerwin, do YOU have anything to add to my last post to Gene – seeing how you and he have shared the view that root and branch carry the same metaphorical meaning?
Mike,It seems to me that Jesus is the Rod of Jesse and the church is the Branch that grows out of his roots.
A root is the member or faction of a household as used in Deuteronomy 29:18.
Kerwin.Did Mary have to change baby Jesus nappies,and gave her breast for milk?
wakeup.
Wakeup,That is a reasonable belief since that is common to humanity though Scripture makes no mention of it. Here is the closest I found but it only hints at the answer.
Luke 11
King James Version (KJV)27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2012,18:41) Quote (Wakeup @ July 15 2012,03:11) Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,20:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,05:29) Kerwin, do YOU have anything to add to my last post to Gene – seeing how you and he have shared the view that root and branch carry the same metaphorical meaning?
Mike,It seems to me that Jesus is the Rod of Jesse and the church is the Branch that grows out of his roots.
A root is the member or faction of a household as used in Deuteronomy 29:18.
Kerwin.Did Mary have to change baby Jesus nappies,and gave her breast for milk?
wakeup.
Wakeup,That is a reasonable belief since that is common to humanity though Scripture makes no mention of it. Here is the closest I found but it only hints at the answer.
Luke 11
King James Version (KJV)27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Kerwin.Here is my next question:
Did Mary have to Change Gods nappies,and feed on her breast?wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ July 15 2012,19:49) Kerwin. Here is my next question:
Did Mary have to Change Gods nappies,and feed on her breast?wakeup.
Wakeup,I do not hold that Jesus is Jehovah.
I do hold that he is the Son of Yahweh's Spirit.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2012,09:04) Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,03:21) While Jehovah is the one that made him in the likeness of humanity. Jesus did not choose to be in the likeness of humanity; he was made that way.
And was Jesus in any other form before being made in the likeness of a human being?It seems to me that the non-preexisters really don't know what to make of Phil 2. You all want to say Jesus was a human being when “existing in the form of God”, yet don't know how to explain how someone who already was a human being could be made in the likeness of a human being.
Mike,Scripture already teaches us that with this verse.
Genesis 5:3
King James Version (KJV)3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
Mike,
You hold that an angel has the outward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the outward form of a servant.
You also hold that an angel has the inward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the inward of a servant.You argue that Philippians 2:6-7 teaches that Jesus surrendered the outward form of one servant and took on the outward form of another. That is clearly not in those verses.
What is in those verses is that Jesus having a godly attitude had no desire to be equal but instead humbled himself and choose to serve Jehovah and mankind.
The whole event being spoken of occurred in the past. Later verses teach us that it occurred simultaneously to his death on the cross and perhaps prior. Because of his behavior he was exalted.
Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2012,16:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2012,09:04) It seems to me that the non-preexisters really don't know what to make of Phil 2. You all want to say Jesus was a human being when “existing in the form of God”, yet don't know how to explain how someone who already was a human being could be made in the likeness of a human being.
Mike,Scripture already teaches us that with this verse.
Genesis 5:3
King James Version (KJV)3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
Kerwin,In that scripture, could you tell me which one was already existing in the likeness of a human being when he was made in the likeness of a human being? Was it Adam or Seth?
Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2012,16:39) Mike, You hold that an angel has the outward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the outward form of a servant.
You also hold that an angel has the inward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the inward of a servant.You argue that Philippians 2:6-7 teaches that Jesus surrendered the outward form of one servant and took on the outward form of another. That is clearly not in those verses.
What is in those verses is that Jesus having a godly attitude had no desire to be equal but instead humbled himself and choose to serve Jehovah and mankind.
The whole event being spoken of occurred in the past. Later verses teach us that it occurred simultaneously to his death on the cross and perhaps prior. Because of his behavior he was exalted.
Kerwin,You are speaking in riddles and claiming to know certain things I believe when I've never told you I believe those things.
Here is the simple question, and I would like a simple answer to it for once:
From Paul's point of view when he wrote the letter to the Philippians, was “existing in the form of God” PRESENT tense, or PAST tense?
Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2012,08:35) Quote (Wakeup @ July 15 2012,19:49) Kerwin. Here is my next question:
Did Mary have to Change Gods nappies,and feed on her breast?wakeup.
Wakeup,I do not hold that Jesus is Jehovah.
I do hold that he is the Son of Yahweh's Spirit.
Kerwin.You have answered correctly, Jesus is not Jehovah.
He is the son of God.He was the word of God;(spirit). the words that I speak to you they are spirit,and it is the spirit that quickens.It is Jesus that will quicken us at his coming.
The spirit word of God was changed into flesh,and was given a name;(jesus). and this man is of the root of David.
We will be quickened by the word of God(now glorified Jesus) at his coming.(of the root of David).
AND HIS NEW NAME IS ;THE WORD OF GOD.(rev19).have a nice day,
wakeup.
He was the Word of God before the Word became flesh, Wakeup. His new name is known only to him. (Rev 19:12)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,05:07) Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2012,16:39) Mike, You hold that an angel has the outward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the outward form of a servant.
You also hold that an angel has the inward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the inward of a servant.You argue that Philippians 2:6-7 teaches that Jesus surrendered the outward form of one servant and took on the outward form of another. That is clearly not in those verses.
What is in those verses is that Jesus having a godly attitude had no desire to be equal but instead humbled himself and choose to serve Jehovah and mankind.
The whole event being spoken of occurred in the past. Later verses teach us that it occurred simultaneously to his death on the cross and perhaps prior. Because of his behavior he was exalted.
Kerwin,You are speaking in riddles and claiming to know certain things I believe when I've never told you I believe those things.
Here is the simple question, and I would like a simple answer to it for once:
From Paul's point of view when he wrote the letter to the Philippians, was “existing in the form of God” PRESENT tense, or PAST tense?
Mike,You did tell me you believe that angels have the outer nature of Jehovah; as you believe angels and Jehovah all have bodies composed of spirit. In fact your current argument is based on the idea Jesus has the outer form of Jehovah.
You also told me you believe angels have the outer form of servants; because they, like humanity, bear the form of a servant.
As for inner form; the new man is said to exist in the image of Jehovah; as is Jesus. As far as I know this is what you believe. The new man serves God. Angels also bear the same image.
Jesus currently exists in the form of Jehovah as he is the exact image of his being, which is written elsewhere in Scripture.
Seth was begotten in the outward likeness of Adam; and the inward image of Adam who had fallen from Jehovah's glory. Seth descends from Adam. Humanity already existed in its own likeness when Jesus was made in it.
Philippians 2 is speaking of an event that occurred. That event is then tied to Jesus' service of self-sacrifice.
There is no riddles in these things.
Those who deny that Jesus existed before Abraham and that he wasn't the Word and that God did not create all things through him are basically going against not only one or two scriptures, but many. They then systematically come up with a way to interpret each verse in a way that is not written.
This is how all false doctrine works. You take a scripture or truth from scripture and apply that truth to a context so that the natural reading of the scripture is changed.
So if I could convince you that the Devil did not exist for example, you would then read every verse about the devil in a different way to as it is written.
Trinitarians, those that deny that God made all things through Jesus Christ, and those that deny the existence of the Devil all work on this premise.
As for those who seek the truth, they only need to read the scripture for themselves and cast aside any bias, prejudice, and predefined beliefs. So if Jesus said “before Abraham I am”, then you read it for what it says and deal with it even if it contradicts something you believe.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,12:52) He was the Word of God before the Word became flesh, Wakeup. His new name is known only to him. (Rev 19:12)
I agree mike.he was the word of God before he was made flesh, and he was simply called the Lord; made flesh through the genealogy of David.God the father is a life giving spirit;and his word is also a life giving spirit,for he created all,but by the will of the owner only.And his owner is the Lord of host.
God owes everything,and everything;his word also he owned,its his.
God can make his word into anything he wants,stone, flesh, wood, spirit.cheers.
wakeup.
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