- This topic is empty.
- Posts
hi t8
no ,but there seems to be arkangel and messenger ,and all have their individual name so don't get to much a head in that direction of asuming who they are or not.I think that in SOME places where the ANGEL of the LORD is mentioned..it MAY actually have been JESUS since he is said to be the WORD of GOD…but its purely speculation on my part and it takes an exercise in exegesis for me to come to those conclusions…
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,19:16) Angel of the LORD means Messenger of the LORD. Can anyone refute that?
T8………That is right angle of the lord means Messenger of the LORD. Nothing More. When in Revelations Jesus said to the Churches he sent His Angle to testify about these things to the churches , He simply meant He sent (JOHN) as a angle or (Messenger) to the Churches to testify about what he saw and hear in a vision on the Isle of Patmos. John was that Angle or Messenger spoken of there. IMOhi
this is my view on;Judges 13:16-18
16 The angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain me, I will not eat your food, but if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD.” For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.
17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”i believe that the angel never give his name,i see that the discussion is on the words said by the angel,and there for manoah ask his name ,the angel goes on to say why do you ask my name ?and ad SEEING IT(THE ACCOMPLISHMENT OF THE WORDS SAID TO HIM)IS WONDERFUL.
Pierre
Hi:
Quote Some teach or speculate that the Angel of the Lord is a pre-existant Christ. Again this is speculation, but I forward these 2 scriptures that could point to this: Judges 13:16-18
16 The angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain me, I will not eat your food, but if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD.” For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.
17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”KJV translates the word translated “wonderful” in verse 18 as “a secret”.
Love in Christ,
MartyThis is the Angel Christology of many early Christians . They believed that Jesus was preexisting as an Angel of God prior to his birth on this earth. What a mess they created by inventing such Pagan religion Christianity to fit Jesus into everything and any thing which they found in O.T.
Please be aware of such mythological stories.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 23 2010,08:00) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,19:16) Angel of the LORD means Messenger of the LORD. Can anyone refute that?
T8………That is right angle of the lord means Messenger of the LORD. Nothing More. When in Revelations Jesus said to the Churches he sent His Angle to testify about these things to the churches , He simply meant He sent (JOHN) as a angle or (Messenger) to the Churches to testify about what he saw and hear in a vision on the Isle of Patmos. John was that Angle or Messenger spoken of there. IMO
Gene,Moses and Hagar believed that the Messenger of Jehovah was God:
Quote 10 Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” 11 And the Angel of the LORD said to her: “ Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has heard your affliction.12 He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” 14 Therefore the well was called Beer Lahai Roi;[a] observe, it is between Kadesh and Bered.
15 So Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram named his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.Note that the Messenger says, “I will multiply your seed”. Then Moses said that the Messenger was “the LORD who spoke to her”. Moses indicated that Hagar named the Messenger “The God who sees me” because she had also seen Him who had seen her.
Did Hagar see Jehovah as you define Him? NO! Hagar saw only the Messenger. Yet she believed that she had seen God Himself. Therefore, she believed that the Messenger was God.
Clear and simple!
The new testament says that Jesus is God's Messenger. Therefore, the Messenger who spoke to Hagar was Jesus who was God.
What has John on Patmos have to do with this? You must impose other texts into the subject because you have no argument.
Jack
Quote (dirtyknections @ Dec. 24 2009,03:30) I think that in SOME places where the ANGEL of the LORD is mentioned..it MAY actually have been JESUS since he is said to be the WORD of GOD…but its purely speculation on my part and it takes an exercise in exegesis for me to come to those conclusions…
Greetings dk,It is no speculation. Moses said that it was the Messenger (Angel) of Jehovah who brought the people out of Egypt (Numbers 20:16). Jude 5 in the oldest manuscripts say that it was Jesus who saved them out of Egypt.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%205&version=ESV
Paul said that it was Christ who guide them and whom they tempted (1 Corinthians 10).
Therefore, Jesus Christ was the Messenger of Jehovah in the old testament.
Jack
KJ………..> Simply put (ANY) Angel of the Lord is a Messenger of the LORD if GOD sends Him forth, To try to force the text to (ONLY) Imply Jesus is wrong as many scriptures show that.
peace and love………………………gene
But it does not say that the Angel of the LORD is Jesus. On this one I agree with Nick. I do not see a clear Scripture that says that Jesus is an Angel. He was the firstborn and is the Son of God. Even though the Angels are also called Sons, but they did not come forth fro Jehovah God. While Jesus did. He is the literal Son of God, even though it says that He is the beginning of the creation of God in Rev. 3:14…..but in Col. 1:15 it says that He is the image of the invisible God. And also in Hebrew 1:5 God says:” To which of the Angel did I ever say:” You are my Son, Today I have begotten You?”
And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son.
verse 6 But when I again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:” Let all the angels of God worship Him:”
It is clear to me that Jesus is not an Angel. When you read on to verse 6,7, and 8 Jehovah God calls His Son God…..
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 04 2010,01:52) KJ………..> Simply put (ANY) Angel of the Lord is a Messenger of the LORD if GOD sends Him forth, To try to force the text to (ONLY) Imply Jesus is wrong as many scriptures show that. peace and love………………………gene
Correct.But when it says “the Angel of the LORD” it is specifying a particular angel. Just as when it says the son of God as opposed to reading it as a son of God.
The definite article defines or identifies. Just as THE Logos is also identified with the use of the definite article in John 1:1. I think if Trinitarians and the “Jesus is just a Man” camp, knew more about the construct of the definite article, they would understand differently.
Think about it like this:
The pope or a pope.
The president or president.
The Admin or an admin.When you use THE it identifies a particular one with that office. Therefore THE angel of the LORD is the same as Angel of the LORD. In other words we can capitalise the word Angel if it is preceded with the definite article.
Similar to Adam versus adam. Adam is capitalized because of the definite article. Another example: Adam and Eve are adam (mankind).
Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 04 2010,06:47) But it does not say that the Angel of the LORD is Jesus. On this one I agree with Nick. I do not see a clear Scripture that says that Jesus is an Angel. He was the firstborn and is the Son of God. Even though the Angels are also called Sons, but they did not come forth fro Jehovah God. While Jesus did. He is the literal Son of God, even though it says that He is the beginning of the creation of God in Rev. 3:14…..but in Col. 1:15 it says that He is the image of the invisible God. And also in Hebrew 1:5 God says:” To which of the Angel did I ever say:” You are my Son, Today I have begotten You?”
And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son.
verse 6 But when I again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:” Let all the angels of God worship Him:”
It is clear to me that Jesus is not an Angel. When you read on to verse 6,7, and 8 Jehovah God calls His Son God…..
Peace and Love Irene
Correct. It doesn't say that Jesus is the Angel of the LORD directly as far as I know.But who would deny the possibility that he could be the messenger of YHWH? And we know that there was a particular one called the Messenger of YHWH that forgave sins and his name was Wonderful.
Tell me who that was. If you do not know, then you have to at least acknowledge a possibility here. That is all I am doing – acknowledging the possibility.
There are Old and New Testament references to 'angels of the LORD', 'an angel of the LORD', and 'the angel of the Lord'. It seems when the definite article 'the' is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the LORD speaks as God, and exercises the responsibilities of God.
The appearances of the Angel of the LORD stops after the Christ appears on Earth. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but 'the Angel of the LORD' is never mentioned. Is this a coincidence or a clue?
It is possible that appearances of the Angel of the LORD were manifestations of Jesus before he came in the flesh? Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”, so you would assume that he was present in the affairs of the world before he came in the flesh.
In any case, the Angel of the LORD is special and if we cannot identify that angel, then we can't draw too many conclusions about that angel either. In other words we can't rule out who it may be if we don't know who it is.
Here is an example of this angel's dealings with humanity pre-Christ.
Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.”
11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:“You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,a
for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers.”13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.” 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roid; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
Notice how this angel is identifies as if it were actually God that spoke.
Also, Jesus said that the Law (and the prophets – I think) spoke of him. If that is the case, where?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
