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The following verse identifies who sits upon the throne:
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power,be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.Quote Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Quote Revelation 22 1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Quote 8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city
Again this Alpha and Omega is referring to the one speaking through Jesus, and that is God.
Love in Christ,
MartyI agree with Marty. The only one in Rev called the Alpha and Omega is God. And Jesus is clearly identified as someone other than God throughout Rev.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2010,15:24) I agree with Marty. The only one in Rev called the Alpha and Omega is God. And Jesus is clearly identified as someone other than God throughout Rev. peace and love,
mike
Is that so?Revelations 1
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
——–This person who said he was The Alpha and The Omega is Jesus Christ himself, as clearly outlined here.
In my bible, those words are also in “Red” which references words of Jesus Christ.
——–
It's funny how people rationalize and choose to see what they want to see, but according to The Only Translated Authority, that matches the original hebrew/greek text “The King James Version”
It is Jesus Christ who is claiming to be The Alpha and Omega…Our Father YHVH is calling himself that too…as well.
either Jesus is lying, or they are one in the same.
Thank you.
Now mind you, it still doesn't support a “trinity” but it does in fact show That The Word of God, is in fact the manifestation of Jesus Christ in whom was God in flesh.
He is the son of God (role as a man) and God the son (role as God).
think about it.
what is a son unto a father?
Someone who comes from the loins of another…and is obedient and subject to that person.
YHVH is a spirit….and if Jesus Christ is The Word of God in whom is also a spirit…
then coming from the loins of YHVH makes him just as much God.
and being subject the father, further attributes his role as Son.
He is not a different or seperate being, but in fact is God the son.
——
The gnosis chrisitians explain it in a strikingly similar way, amazing how they explain what i've been feeling and believe for many years.
They explain that God, the TRUE GOD is infinite and eternal.
He has no name, for what has a name is a creation of another.
He isn't righteous, for righteousness comes from him.
He isn't love, for love comes from him
He isn't good, for good comes from him.ect….
what that basically means, is that you can't simply call YHVH Good, because he transcends goodness, he transcends love, he transcends righteoussness…
These are all attributes, but you cannot attribute these things to him because they COME FROM HIM.
He is the source of all things.
So when you say I am a good person, God is not only more than Good, but all good comes from him.
————–
They further explain how God has no boundaries, for if he had boundaries he would not be the source…and that everything is encompassed within him.
Then later on they explain how he is content and happy with himself, and NEEDS nothing…for if he NEEDED, it would mean he was dependant on something to sustain…
and since he's the source of all things, he needs nothing…and that in actuallity…everything NEEDS him.
——–
Now explaining Jesus Christ's position…YHVH the source of all, understood he existed.
That self reflecting knowledge of himself, manifested in a being.
That being was himself, reflected as thought or expression.
——–
O wow, what does that sound like?
The Word of God (expression).
they further explain how from that being all things were created…
all creation came from his self reflected thought of his own existence, in which we identify as The Word of God.
——–
This helps us understand how Jesus is in fact God of all things, but even he is subject to The Father in whom he is a reflection of.
This makes him God, but not YHVH himself, seeing as YHVH is The Source.
MIke……….Here is something to think about………> The disciples said to Jesus. “Tell us how our end will be ” Jesus said ” have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look back for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning, he will know end and will not experience death.”
Quote from Gospel of Thomas
God the Father starts us off from our beginning and it always had a end , its when we reach the end we recognize what the beginning was, God had it in mind all along for us all, our end fulfills our beginning and we live for ever. IMO
Jesus is the fulfillment of the first and the last, That God has in mind for all mankind. Therefore he says I am the first and the last. Another words the last will be just like him. Jesus represents what GOD had in mind for mankind all along. IMO
peace and love………………………gene
RM,
You are right when you say “Funny how people rationalize and choose to see what they want to see..”
Because that is exactly what you just did!
RM, There are four major players in the whole Revelation scenario:
1) a) God Almighty : “He who is, was, and will be” (which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty)
b) The One seated on the Throne2) a) Jesus Christ : “He was, then was not, but now is”
b) The Lamb3) John
4) the Angel
Do not be mislead by “Alpha and Omega”, “First and Last”, “Beginning and End” they all mean the same thing.
They are just different ways of expressing and emphasising the same concept.
Notice that the statements never state what they are the A&O, F&L, B&E “of”.
Rev 1:
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants – things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His Angel to His servant John…
4,… “Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come and from the seven Spirits that are before His throne“
5 “And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead…”Can some one look at these verses and show who is and who is not who others say they are?
It is clear that 4) is God almighty – it even says so!
It is clear that 5) is separately, Jesus Christ – it even says so!John and the angel are equally easily identified – What is significant (refuting Trinitarianism) is that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit!!!
What follows on fro here now these are established?
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 11 2010,10:49) 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Hi RM,The words Alpha and Omega and beginning and end aren't in verse 11 in the oldest mss. That's why none of the newer translations have those words.
Sorry, but you can look it up.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2010,13:42) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 11 2010,10:49) 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Hi RM,The words Alpha and Omega and beginning and end aren't in verse 11 in the oldest mss. That's why none of the newer translations have those words.
Sorry, but you can look it up.
mike
Mike I did look it up, here are the original text.1:8 Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος, λέγει ὁ κύριος ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος ὁ παντοκράτωρ
and here is the word for word translation.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
In my bible, these words are in red signifying the speech of Jesus Christ.
but some may argue it is referring to YHVH and not Jesus…so lets go to the undeniable verse jesus was speaking in.
1:11 λεγούσης Ἐγώ ἐιμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω, Ὃ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος καὶ ὁ βλέπεις γράψον εἰς βιβλίον καὶ πέμψον ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν Ἀσίᾳ, εἰς Ἕφεσον καὶ εἰς Σμύρναν καὶ εἰς Πέργαμον καὶ εἰς Θυάτειρα καὶ εἰς Σάρδεις καὶ εἰς Φιλαδέλφειαν καὶ εἰς Λαοδίκειαν
translated word for word here:
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
———-
Do you have more authentic scripture as you claim to be the original text that don't have these words?
———–
Secondly if you all were to read what I had posted earlier as far as what the christian gnosis explain.
YHVH is the source of all things, his self reflected thought or expression of his OWN existence, was the very thought or expression that came into being.
We understand and perceive this self-recognizing thought or expression, as THE WORD OF GOD.
This awareness of his own existence, took form and manifested.
Then created all things.
———
So in otherwords….not only does The Word of God COME FROM GOD (as a thought or expression) but IT IS GOD (because it is his self-reflected awareness of himself).
Does this not show you all that, Jesus Christ is actually God in flesh…but is not YHVH The Source (or Father) of all things?
For the reflection and thought of himself is subject to The Source from whence it came?
unto the likes of a Son?
Hi RM,
This is some stuff from ny debate with Dennison.
Quote Hi Dennison, From Wikipedia,
In the Book of Revelation, it reads “I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.”[2]. The first part of this phrase (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) is first found in Chapter 1 verse 8, and is found in every manuscript of Revelation that has 1v8. Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.
Quote My initial thought is that it is more likely that a trinitarian swayed scribe or translator inserted Alpha and Omega than it is that someone omitted it. Otherwise, why would MOST ancient mss not have those words in them? Every English translation that I'm aware of in the history of the world has ever increasingly biased their mss toward the trinitarian viewpoint except the NWT. Just like the verse added to 1 John 5:7 about the three in heaven that testify. I don't know if you are aware of the controversy involved with this verse, but all scholars now agree that it was added at a later time and all omit it from their translations. My point is that it wouldn't be the first time trinitarians tampered with God's Word. They are still doing it with this “God the One and Only” crap in place of “only begotten god”.
It seems your Alpha and Omega is running the same course here as 1 John 5:7. YLT and KJV were written centuries ago. The newer translations omit these words and I assume it is for good reason. Older mss are continually being unearthed and maybe KJV and YLT did not have access to the many older mss that didn't have those words.
Quote Revelation 1:11 NET © saying: “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches – to Ephesus, 1 Smyrna, 2 Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”
NIV ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”NASB ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”NLT ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
It said, “Write down what you see, and send it to the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”MSG ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
“Write what you see into a book. Send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea.”BBE ©
SABDAweb Rev 1:11
Saying, What you see, put in a book, and send it to the seven churches; to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.NRSV ©
bibleoremusRev 1:11
saying, “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamum, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”NKJV ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”Greek
legouvsh?, {V-PAP-GSF} J;o {R-ASN} blevpei? {V-PAI-2S} gravyon {V-AAM-2S} eij? {PREP} biblivon {N-ASN} kai; {CONJ} pevmyon {V-AAM-2S} tai'? {T-DPF} eJpta; {N-NUI} ejkklhsivai?, {N-DPF} eij? {PREP} ~efeson {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Smuvrnan {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Pevrgamon {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Quavteira {N-APN} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Savrdei? {N-APF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Filadevlfeian {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Laodivkeian. {N-ASF}Why is it that only the KJV has the words “I am the Alpha and Omega”? It is not in the Westcott and Hort Greek listed above.
The NIV was written by over 100 scholars which I have heard had to sign off on being a trinitarian before they were allowed on the project. Don't you think if there was any way they could have found worthy Greek mss that had the Alpha and Omega part they would have bent over backwards to include those words?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 12 2010,15:24) Hi RM, This is some stuff from ny debate with Dennison.
Quote Hi Dennison, From Wikipedia,
In the Book of Revelation, it reads “I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.”[2]. The first part of this phrase (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) is first found in Chapter 1 verse 8, and is found in every manuscript of Revelation that has 1v8. Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.
Quote My initial thought is that it is more likely that a trinitarian swayed scribe or translator inserted Alpha and Omega than it is that someone omitted it. Otherwise, why would MOST ancient mss not have those words in them? Every English translation that I'm aware of in the history of the world has ever increasingly biased their mss toward the trinitarian viewpoint except the NWT. Just like the verse added to 1 John 5:7 about the three in heaven that testify. I don't know if you are aware of the controversy involved with this verse, but all scholars now agree that it was added at a later time and all omit it from their translations. My point is that it wouldn't be the first time trinitarians tampered with God's Word. They are still doing it with this “God the One and Only” crap in place of “only begotten god”.
It seems your Alpha and Omega is running the same course here as 1 John 5:7. YLT and KJV were written centuries ago. The newer translations omit these words and I assume it is for good reason. Older mss are continually being unearthed and maybe KJV and YLT did not have access to the many older mss that didn't have those words.
Quote Revelation 1:11 NET © saying: “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches – to Ephesus, 1 Smyrna, 2 Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”
NIV ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”NASB ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”NLT ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
It said, “Write down what you see, and send it to the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”MSG ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
“Write what you see into a book. Send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea.”BBE ©
SABDAweb Rev 1:11
Saying, What you see, put in a book, and send it to the seven churches; to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.NRSV ©
bibleoremusRev 1:11
saying, “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamum, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”NKJV ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”Greek
legouvsh?, {V-PAP-GSF} J;o {R-ASN} blevpei? {V-PAI-2S} gravyon {V-AAM-2S} eij? {PREP} biblivon {N-ASN} kai; {CONJ} pevmyon {V-AAM-2S} tai'? {T-DPF} eJpta; {N-NUI} ejkklhsivai?, {N-DPF} eij? {PREP} ~efeson {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Smuvrnan {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Pevrgamon {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Quavteira {N-APN} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Savrdei? {N-APF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Filadevlfeian {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Laodivkeian. {N-ASF}Why is it that only the KJV has the words “I am the Alpha and Omega”? It is not in the Westcott and Hort Greek listed above.
The NIV was written by over 100 scholars which I have heard had to sign off on being a trinitarian before they were allowed on the project. Don't you think if there was any way they could have found worthy Greek mss that had the Alpha and Omega part they would have bent over backwards to include those words?
peace and love,
mike
Lol, do you not realize all these translations come from the original greek/hebrew text?So if you understand that, does it make sense to use them to prove what God originally had written down and intended us to know?
——
If you want to KNOW THE TRUTH, read the original hebrew/greek text…or the KJV which is the literal translation.
——
If you want the 'watered' down truth, which steers you into a dark lonely firey path…
then keep using these translations as your authority.
These translations should only “supplement” your reading and study, not be the cornerstone of your understanding.
Hi RM,
I guess you missed this part,
Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.
Those words are not in the Greek manuscripts that are the oldest and considered the most reliable and true to the Word.
That's why even the newer trinitarian sponsored translations do not include them. They aren't in the original Greek.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2010,13:48) Hi RM, I guess you missed this part,
Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.
Those words are not in the Greek manuscripts that are the oldest and considered the most reliable and true to the Word.
That's why even the newer trinitarian sponsored translations do not include them. They aren't in the original Greek.
mike
So can you please provide the original greek text, that you supposedly have read/seen where these words were omitted?Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 15 2010,03:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2010,13:48) Hi RM, I guess you missed this part,
Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.
Those words are not in the Greek manuscripts that are the oldest and considered the most reliable and true to the Word.
That's why even the newer trinitarian sponsored translations do not include them. They aren't in the original Greek.
mike
So can you please provide the original greek text, that you supposedly have read/seen where these words were omitted?
Here's one of them:http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rev&chapter=1&verse=11
I think this is the Wescott and Hort mss, but I'm not sure.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,14:45) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 15 2010,03:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2010,13:48) Hi RM, I guess you missed this part,
Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.
Those words are not in the Greek manuscripts that are the oldest and considered the most reliable and true to the Word.
That's why even the newer trinitarian sponsored translations do not include them. They aren't in the original Greek.
mike
So can you please provide the original greek text, that you supposedly have read/seen where these words were omitted?
Here's one of them:http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rev&chapter=1&verse=11
I think this is the Wescott and Hort mss, but I'm not sure.
mike
Mike,A quick question:
Since Jesus is NOT God:
Alpha and Omega could apply to him along with “first and last” and “beginning and end”.
What do people gain by belittling God and give him these “titles”?
All three of these “titles” deal with “time” which God is beyond. God exists and is not bound by our limitations of time.
God has no beginning.
God is the ONLY. Why compare Him to the first or last?And funniest yet, WHY the Greek “title” Alpha and Omega for the HEBREW God?
The Professor
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,06:45) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 15 2010,03:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2010,13:48) Hi RM, I guess you missed this part,
Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.
Those words are not in the Greek manuscripts that are the oldest and considered the most reliable and true to the Word.
That's why even the newer trinitarian sponsored translations do not include them. They aren't in the original Greek.
mike
So can you please provide the original greek text, that you supposedly have read/seen where these words were omitted?
Here's one of them:http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rev&chapter=1&verse=11
I think this is the Wescott and Hort mss, but I'm not sure.
mike
Mike, your translations that all don't include Alpha and Omega… come from translations that COME from the KJV.——-
The KJV is a literal translation of the original greek/hebrew text.
All the others, are translations FROM the KJV, reworded for a better read.
——-
So when you provide text from the KJV, you are providing a single translation from the original text.
When you provide text from the NIV and such, you're probiding, a translation from a translation. ect….
——-
The only authority for biblical truth, is the original text or the KJV in which is a translation of….
If the original text, Say Alpha and Omega… then end of story.
You'd be a fool to follow the translation of a translation as oppose to the original text.
——–
BTW, the link you provided, wasn't a link to the original text…
the one I provided however, was….
and in the original text we see the words… Firt and last, or alpha and omega….
so stop arguing about something you're clearly wrong about.
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,09:38) Alpha and Omega could apply to him along with “first and last” and “beginning and end”. What do people gain by belittling God and give him these “titles”?
All three of these “titles” deal with “time” which God is beyond. God exists and is not bound by our limitations of time.
God has no beginning.
God is the ONLY. Why compare Him to the first or last?And funniest yet, WHY the Greek “title” Alpha and Omega for the HEBREW God?
The Professor
Hi David,Funny avatar!
Who is that? The quantum leap guy?God says this about Himself. No one attributes this to Him. And we know it's him because in one instance, He add “the Almighty”.
And what it means in my humble opinion is that the was nothing or no one before Him, and nothing or no one will ever exist after Him.
He is the beginning of everything we know and understand, and none of us will ever “outlive” him.
God isn't just God of the Hebrews. He never was. He is everyone's God whether they know it or not. But I get the joke.
mike
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 19 2010,08:37) The KJV is a literal translation of the original greek/hebrew text. All the others, are translations FROM the KJV, reworded for a better read.
Hi RM,You have been misinformed my friend. That is not even close to true. Almost EVERY single translation out there is translated from the Hebrew and Greek mss.
And the reason they all omit the A and O now is because older Greek mss have been found that DON'T have those words. Some of the more recent ones do, so what does that tell you? It was added at a later date. It's not in the originals.
It will be cool when we find even older mss. I wonder how many other things got added through the years.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,22:56) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,09:38) Alpha and Omega could apply to him along with “first and last” and “beginning and end”. What do people gain by belittling God and give him these “titles”?
All three of these “titles” deal with “time” which God is beyond. God exists and is not bound by our limitations of time.
God has no beginning.
God is the ONLY. Why compare Him to the first or last?And funniest yet, WHY the Greek “title” Alpha and Omega for the HEBREW God?
The Professor
Hi David,Funny avatar!
Who is that? The quantum leap guy?God says this about Himself. No one attributes this to Him. And we know it's him because in one instance, He add “the Almighty”.
And what it means in my humble opinion is that the was nothing or no one before Him, and nothing or no one will ever exist after Him.
He is the beginning of everything we know and understand, and none of us will ever “outlive” him.
God isn't just God of the Hebrews. He never was. He is everyone's God whether they know it or not. But I get the joke.
mike
Thanks Mike,Yep, that's the guy. My daughter has had a crush on him for ages and she thinks I look a bit like him….maybe when I was younger.
I think that they really wanted to piss off the Jews so they added this.
The Almighty I get, but comparing Him with others or giving Him a beginning or end won't cut it in my book.
Even the He who is, who was and who is to come goes along with God EXISTS concept, and is separate from the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 19 2010,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,22:56) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,09:38) Alpha and Omega could apply to him along with “first and last” and “beginning and end”. What do people gain by belittling God and give him these “titles”?
All three of these “titles” deal with “time” which God is beyond. God exists and is not bound by our limitations of time.
God has no beginning.
God is the ONLY. Why compare Him to the first or last?And funniest yet, WHY the Greek “title” Alpha and Omega for the HEBREW God?
The Professor
Hi David,Funny avatar!
Who is that? The quantum leap guy?God says this about Himself. No one attributes this to Him. And we know it's him because in one instance, He add “the Almighty”.
And what it means in my humble opinion is that the was nothing or no one before Him, and nothing or no one will ever exist after Him.
He is the beginning of everything we know and understand, and none of us will ever “outlive” him.
God isn't just God of the Hebrews. He never was. He is everyone's God whether they know it or not. But I get the joke.
mike
Thanks Mike,Yep, that's the guy. My daughter has had a crush on him for ages and she thinks I look a bit like him….maybe when I was younger.
I think that they really wanted to piss off the Jews so they added this.
The Almighty I get, but comparing Him with others or giving Him a beginning or end won't cut it in my book.
Even the He who is, who was and who is to come goes along with God EXISTS concept, and is separate from the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
The Professor
hi Davidfuni understand this like;
first GOD is the beginning of all he is the one who start with Christ to create ;so written in John;
but he also is the end ;this is also scriptural ,wen Paul says “and then at the end Christ himself turn all things to God so that God can be all in all”
but it is also true with Christ;he is the first of all creation,and he is also the one at the end close all things wen his mission is finished he is the last in all creation to close the door.
so there is no contradiction to apply those therm to both God and Christ..
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,15:01) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 19 2010,08:37) The KJV is a literal translation of the original greek/hebrew text. All the others, are translations FROM the KJV, reworded for a better read.
Hi RM,You have been misinformed my friend. That is not even close to true. Almost EVERY single translation out there is translated from the Hebrew and Greek mss.
And the reason they all omit the A and O now is because older Greek mss have been found that DON'T have those words. Some of the more recent ones do, so what does that tell you? It was added at a later date. It's not in the originals.
It will be cool when we find even older mss. I wonder how many other things got added through the years.
peace and love,
mike
According to who?can you source your information?
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