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I remember as a young believer being told that bank tellers detect counterfeit notes, not by studying the counterfeits, but by continually handling the real thing…
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even though you use the words of Jesus, it is plain to those who know Scripture that what you are teaching here concerning the equality and unity of Father, Son, Spirit…is contrary to what the Bible itself teaches..
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the problem you are having is that you are attempting to understand a Spiritual reality in a logical and finite way..
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before his conversion the Apostle Paul was very zealous for the truth, yet his zeal was a carnal and religious zeal that actually led him in a way contrary to Christ – who is the Living Truth..
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Paul says in 2 Corinthians, that the natural MIND cannot comprehend the things of God – we cannot understand the unity of the godhead in a logical sense simply because it is outside of the natural realm of understanding and must be discerned SPIRITUALLY…
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Philosophers and Theologians will never agree, nor will they ever find the truth because it is simply GIVEN to those who can receive it as a little child..
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we must “Let go, and let God” – let go of our mental striving, and let God shed His light through the inspired Word.David, no amount of writing, postulating, and philosophy will change this fact:
I believe Jesus when he said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.
And you do not believe Jesus words here.
It really boils down to that.your understanding of this verse is filtered through the lens of your anti-trinity theology…thinking that these words of Christ somehow confirm your carnal conclusions (that the Son is not equal to the Father).. when really if you take a closer look you see that eternal life is in BOTH the Father AND Son together – you cannot separate the two as you attempt to do by isolating certain verses and denying others.
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But because you take the Bible according to the understanding of age-of-reason thinkers such as Isaac Newton (and others who deny the trinity on philosophical grounds), you interpret Scripture contrary to the way it is meant to be understood..and so come up with these extra-Biblical notions that seem on the surface to make sense until you dig a little deeper and realize what a confusing doctrinal mess you’ve brought into.Ahem. Read it for what it says. Remove the filters and it says that the only true God is the Father, and he sent the son. That is it in pure form. Read it yourself and be honest before God.
Ahem, some HONESTY would be welcome – cause so far you’re peddling a mish-mass of secondhand doctrines and borrowed arguments that presents us with a Frankenstein concept of Christ as just another god….!?
if the Son is ONE with the Father (the only true God) then is it some sort of blasphemy or idolatry to call the Son, ‘God’…as Thomas did..? PLEASE BE HONEST..
lol. So the answer is DavidL, that I should pretend (like yourself) that Jesus never said, “This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.
DavidL,
Anti-Trinity doesn’t mean not exalting Jesus as the divine Son of God. Jesus represented God while on earth so he IS equal to God in that sense but he’s NOT God the Father.This debate is just another way of Satan confusing the believers. What we ought to do is read through the bible and test our beliefs based on what’s in the bible. All that I’m concerned about is accepting Jesus as our Saviour because he was the mystery that Paul wrote of. That he came to earth to fulfill the law and abolish it. Think about it – just as Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac, it would make a lot more sense for God to sacrifice His own son.
if the Son is ONE with the Father (the only true God), then how can it be wrong to call the Son, ‘God’ as Thomas did..?
Thanks Alan, no one is saying the Son is the Father – that notion comes from the carnal confusion of those who oppose the trinity.
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The Son is ONE with the Father in a similar sense as a wife (though the lesser vessel) is ONE with her husband....to say the Son is the same as the Father is like saying the wife is the husband..but that is the confused way anti-trinitarians try to discredit the truth.
The problem you are not seeing DavidL is that Jesus clearly said, that the only true God was the Father and that the one true God had sent the son. Further, you say that God is three persons in one substance, yet scripture doesn’t say, “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit like you do. Rather it say God, Son, Spirit of God or God and HIS son. Can you not see that the Father is the one true God? Obviously not. But Jesus taught it, scripture witnesses to it, and thus we believe it. No one is going to snatch that treasure from our hands.
Think for a minute. If Jesus is God, then why does scripture say God and the son. It would say God the Father and God the Son or the Father of God and the Son of God. Yet we do not find your theology in scripture. What see is as follows:
Acts 2:33 (English-NIV)
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear,
1Corinthians 1:3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Corinthians 1:2-3
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;the reason Scripture doesn’t refer to Jesus as ‘God the Son’ is because He came to earth NOT AS GOD, but as man…He was WITH God and John says He WAS God – that is, He was ONE with the FATHER (not another god as you and other cult groups teach) but He left that exalted POSITION of glory He had with the Father and was manifest in the world as the Son of God – His Deity was veiled in the robes of humanity..
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Your understanding of the Trinity is all wrong, based on doctrine, not Scripture – If you could see how God can call TWO individuals ONE flesh, then you would be closer to understanding the perfect UNITY of Father, Son and Spirit (tri-unity)…knowing that the Lord our God (Elohim – plural) is ONE God.. THREE working in the power of ONE (JUST AS Satan’s counterfeit trinity 666 is THREE joined together under his ONE evil power).
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look again at the verses you quote – “..from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” – Father AND Son together..it doesn’t say from God THROUGH Jesus, but God AND Jesus – they are ONE.the reason Scripture doesn’t refer to Jesus as ‘God the Son’ is because He came to earth NOT AS GOD, but as man…He was WITH God and John says He WAS God – that is, He was ONE with the FATHER (not another god as you and other cult groups teach) but He left that exalted POSITION of glory He had with the Father and was manifest in the world as the Son of God – His Deity was veiled in the robes of humanity..
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Your understanding of the Trinity is all wrong, based on doctrine, not Scripture – If you could see how God can call TWO individuals ONE flesh, then you would be closer to understanding the perfect UNITY of Father, Son and Spirit (tri-unity)…knowing that the Lord our God (Elohim – plural) is ONE God.. THREE working in the power of ONE (JUST AS Satan’s counterfeit trinity 666 is THREE joined together under his ONE evil power).
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look again at the verses you quote – “..from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” – Father AND Son together..He is seated at the right hand of the Father in glory – they are ONE.Jesus said, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
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I know you try and discredit this Scripture, but the truth of this verse is solidly verified in our Lord’s own baptism – for not only was He immersed in water, but also in the FATHER’s blessing and the Holy Spirit’s presence..!!to try and separate the three members of the godhead (as you are doing) really you are only making ANOTHER christian-cult teaching based on man’s CARNAL interpretation of Scripture…rather than relying on revelation that the SPIRIT gives.
I am relying and standing on the words of Jesus Christ. “This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”. I am rejecting your words.
DavidL, you are a victim of the Roman Catholic Church. You are a tool for them. It is their foundation. Look up their creed. Whereas you would do better to listen to scripture. Paul states that we are to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. The Trinity is just a trick to get you away from the only name given under Heaven and Earth that you can be saved.
Below are some historical references as a second witness after scripture.
Encyclopedia Britannia, the 11th edition vol 3, page 365-366
“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son and Holy Ghost by the Catholic church in the second century.Encyclopedia Britannia, vol 3, page 82
“Everywhere in the oldest sources it states that baptism took place in the name of Jesus Christ.”Canney Encyclopedia of Religion, page 53
The early church baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until the second century.Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion, Volume2
Christian baptism was administered using the words, “in the name of Jesus”. page 377.The use of the trinitarian formula of any sort was not suggested in the early Church’s history.page 378
“Go ye therefore and teach all nations, in my name” … the latter form being the more frequent.page 380.
Baptism was always in the name of Jesus until time of Justin Martyr, when the triune formula was used. page 389.
Catholic Encyclopedia, vol 2, page 377,
Catholics acknowledge that baptism in Jesus’ name was changed by the Catholic church.Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Volume 1, page 435
The New Testament knows only the baptism in the name of Jesus.Hastings Dictionary of Bible, page 88
It must be acknowledged that the three fold name of Matthew 28:19 does not appear to have been used by the primitive church, but rather in the name of Jesus, Jesus Christ, or Lord Jesus.The Canney Encyclopedia of Religion, page 53 states,
The early Church always baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until the developement of the trinity doctrine in the 2nd Century.
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