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And the point still stands. You do not believe Jesus when he said:
Jesus said, “This is ETERNAL LIFE, that you may know the ONLY true God, AND Jesus Christ WHOM HE has sent”.
I believe it and because of this, you oppose me. But the obvious thing to point out is that I am only the messenger here. In other words, this is not my message. So it is the one whose mouth originally spoke these words is who you really are opposing.Your argument against the Trinity is that it is a man-made doctrine (extra-Biblical)…you say it doesn’t stem from the Bible but has it’s origin outside of Scripture…
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Yet your whole understanding on this is derived from extra-Biblical teaching (!) – and those who have God’s Word as their sole foundation know without a shadow of doubt that God is presented in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…(!)
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You are so obviously mixed up, yet you cling to your delusion..
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Your practice is that of the cults – you quote Scripture to make people think you are teaching the truth…(!) but in reality you are actually teaching something false…
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You are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing….Your very argument against the Trinity (as a man-made doctrine) is in itself a man-made doctrine…!
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Without realizing it you have fallen into the same trap of what you think others have done – putting an extra-Biblical doctrine first and Scripture second…!
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This sadly is your delusion.John Bunyan has something that you sadly lack – Spiritual inspiration…he has this because he trusted fully in the inspired Word of God – his faith untainted by the philosophy of man…
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Put simply – he believed the Word of God therefore he knew that the true nature of God is Triune…!
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If you would but humbly listen to his sound and spiritual advice, you might actually see how you have fallen into the error of carnal reasoning…and of taking one Scripture at the expense of others…It was Worldly Wiseman (from the town of Carnal Policy), who first turned Christian out of the way…so too with us – if we listen to the voice of worldly wisdom we will soon lose sight of the true path, and stand in need of correction..!
But Jesus is not Wordly Wiseman is he?
I believe that there is one God the Father, and that he is the only true God, and that he sent his son to this world, and that he made his son, both Lord and Christ.
And for this, you call me Worldly Wiseman, and yet these are not my words, but the words of Paul, and more importantly, the words of Jesus.
It is the Trinity Doctrine that is the bread of Worldly Wiseman.
Forsake Athanasius and Constantine, and listen to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. “For this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.
One of these days, you will admit that Jesus was right when he spoke this. When will that day come?Not true. Jesus said, “This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom ye have sent”. I believe this simple truth and embrace simplicity in Christ. While you come here and preach that confusing doctrine that no one fully understands, that Jesus is part of a triune God and that the one true God is three persons.
Such language is not in scripture, but is found in the doctrine of Athanasius and the Popes. This complication is not of Christ. The truth is simple. Jesus is the son of the only true God.If you simply accepted the words of Jesus Christ (as you pretend) and your understanding was molded solely by the pure Word of Scripture (instead of all the other theological/philosophical concepts of ‘worldlywisdom’ you’ve brought into) then you would not be vainly attempting to deny the truth as presented to us in Scripture – that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equally God…
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You say, – The Trinity Doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism. They are rooted in Babylon, prominent in Egypt, still exist in India, and is the foundation of Roman Catholicism..
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So…Where did you get this information from…? Because, if you look to Scripture you find the Trinity in many places –
*John 14:26
*John 16:13-15
*1 Cor. 12:4-6
Just a few I come across without even looking…!DavidL. No one is denying that there is one God the Father, one Lord Jesus Christ, and one Spirit.
But that is not the Trinity Doctrine. As I have said before and judging by this post, you are out of your depth and you should graciously concede this.And the last scripture you quote actually is a proof verse for there being one God the Father. It says, God, Jesus, Spirit.
Where as you say that God is all three, thus, this would make five according to your view.
God Trinity + Jesus + Spirit. Not to mention that there would be two Jesus’s and two spirits.
Back to the drawing board. These scriptures acknowledge that the Father is the true God and that he has a son. And we know that God has a spirit.
No Trinity here.You accuse the Roman Catholic church of Paganism and false doctrine, yet in so doing you are now forging YOUR OWN paganistic belief…!
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The Catholics created Purgatory – a non-Biblical place between heaven and hell (neither here nor there)…but now, in attacking the Trinity and the deity of Christ as some false doctrine of Rome, you yourself are inventing another religious fallacy that is equally as false… in theological terms you have created for Christ a realm where He is neither fully God nor fully man…!!
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John declares that the Word was with God and the Word was God…
In the verses I shared (which of course don’t fit your new theology) we see how the Son and the Spirit are likewise with God and at the same time are God…
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It is very plain for the un-indoctrinated to see, but sadly, like the Pharisees of old, your mind is now shrouded in extra-Biblical concepts (that you actually think are Biblical..!!) and so you become locked into the very same delusion you accuse others of..!!!DavidL, the Trinity is the Catholic faith.
And I am simply agreeing with Jesus when he said: “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.
Here is the faith that you espouse. It is the Catholic Faith. You are under her influence:
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
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The truth is: Shama’ Yisrael Yahweh Elohim is ONE.there is NO TRINITY.
This was introduced in the middle ages (dark ages) by Romans hence Roman Catholic Church and it was borrowed from pagan worshipers, the heathen. Know your history!! The information is available in our history books. It is not a secret anymore. Our creator is one although He has many attributes. Yahweh Elohim is ONE-ECHAD!!Shama’ Yisrael Yahweh Elohim is ONE – (Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.)
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The first name for God given in the Bible is Elohim. It is a plural noun used with singular verbs. According to Genesis 1:1, the Creator of the Universe, Elohim, exists as a plural being.
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Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness …”
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ECHAD. (ONE) A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute “one” but a compound “one.”For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two “shall become one (echad) flesh.” In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.
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John strikingly reveals the plurality of our one GOD when he declares – “IN THE BEGINNING…was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was…GOD.”@ DavidL
We understand why you believe the Trinity, but it is obscure and contradicts half the New Testament. Any hypothesis you come up with has to embrace all scripture, not just a few.
We know that God created all things through his Word and the Word was with him, and the Word is Jesus who is the image of God. Thus do you think it possible that God might say, “let us create God in our image”. I mean you seem to give the impression that God is a pie chart when he created all things. But we know that the Word was with God, (next to him as he is now). Thus when God created all things through the Word, then God is the Father and Jesus is the Word. I count two here, thus “let us” makes perfect sense.
But your view contradicts for example that there is one true God the Father and takes away from the identity and position of Jesus by folding him into God himself.BTW, elohim is used of angels too and even an earthquake. In the case of the latter, is it a plural of earthquakes?
@ DavidL
echad means both unity and one in number. So if there is a choice, then let scripture point you to which is correct.
Jesus said, “eternal life is this, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.
Thus according to Jesus, God is one and is composed of the Father who is one. There you have it. Jesus clears this up for you and you will listen if you are one of his sheep.
Further, when echad means one in unity it tells you what is in unity, i.e., the man and the woman for example. But the Lord thy God is one God is not telling you that there are multiple members that are one God is it. And if the one true God is the Father, then you either accept this important truth or you reject it. Also the word Mono is used of God elsewhere. e.g., 1 Timothy 1:17
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God”.Your argument is that the Trinity is not found in Scripture, but rather you would say, it contradicts Scripture…a conclusion you have reached, NOT from meditating on the Word and allowing the Spirit to enlighten your understanding, but by logical conclusions and theological deductions…
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If you allow Scripture to interpret Scripture and follow the guidance of the Spirit, you find that, as the Apostle John declares, the very first verse of the Bible reveals the Father and Son together as GOD – this of course messes with your theology…but that’s because your theology is ‘logic’ based – not Spirit based..!DavidL, you make statements, but they do not match scripture. And you never explain why this is. I cannot take you at your word. Show me scripture and show me how the scriptures we quote are not saying what they say. Then I will consider that. But statements like this are meaningless. The Bereans checked out what Paul said using scripture and Paul commended them for that. I am doing the same for you, and your conclusions do not match scripture.
GOD IS THREE – (JEWISHNESS AND THE TRINITY By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum)
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Going through the Hebrew Scriptures we find that three, and only three, distinct personalities are ever considered divine.
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1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.
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2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where he is found he is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH himself. For instance in Genesis 16:7 he is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH himself. In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of YHVH, but God himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given. (2)
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A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God’s own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God’s own name is in this angel shows his divine status.
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3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to simply as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 63:10,14. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because he has all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.
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So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.
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