Testing the Trinity

[Proclaimer]

The Spirit is the Spirit OF God
Yeshua is the son OF God.
So is the Father, the Father of God?

No he is God. He is not OF anyone. Even Paul stated this when he said, “for us there is one God the Father”. Today’s confession goes more like this: “for us there is one God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit”. So what is going on?

God had challenged my belief on the Trinity many years ago, as I blindly believed and excepted this doctrine as a pillar of my faith and assumed that it was the foundation of Christianity. But like most Christians, I had never really check it out. I knew at the time that God wants us to know what we believe in and to test all things and also to watch our doctrine closely.

When I started to look into the Trinity Doctrine I found many scriptures that really challenged my belief so I set out to understand the truth. When I brought the subject up with other Christians including many people who were older in the faith, there seemed to be this “do not question attitude” and in the end I decided rather than make waves, I would just leave it and except that the Trinity Doctrine was correct even though I felt that I was being untrue to the conviction in my heart. My problem was the fear of man. Many years later God made me face my belief in the Trinity again and he kept putting certain scriptures in front of me. In the end I decided that I would not run away from this anymore and I did a full on study where God divinely lead me to a new scripture, about one each day and each scripture in succession built a picture that really helped me to understand what he was conveying to me. First of all I would like to say that I have a clear understanding of the Trinity Doctrine and am very familiar with the scriptures that people use to support this doctrine.

Anyway what I discovered was quite interesting and I will condense what I have been shown below.

1. The Trinity Doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism. They are rooted in Babylon, prominent in Egypt, still exist in India, and is the foundation of Roman Catholicism.
2. The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine for Christianity started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
3. The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of. He was also head of the Pagan religions.
4. During and after the Holy Roman Empire, creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through. Mary was exalted to Mother of God (a title that goes back to Babylon) and worship of the saints was also sanctioned.
5. The organized church we see today was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today’s churches/denominations. These denominations are not to be confused with the Body of Christ spoken of in the scripture. Most denominations are still rooted in a Trinitarian creed of some kind. So their foundation is the Trinity which came from Babylon.
6. The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies which Jesus said his church did not need, and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known by the descriptive term, ‘The Dark Ages’.
7. Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
8. As a result of the Reformation, many new denominations started up, but they too held onto some of the creeds including the Trinity Doctrine.
9. Babylon means confusion and the foundation of most denominations is the Trinity Doctrine which is confusing to all, even proponents of the doctrine. We are told to come out Babylon the Mystery religion lest we partake in her sins and iniquity. Who is Babylon? She is the mother of all harlots and the kings of the Earth have committed adultery with her. She is the religious system that was rooted in Babylon and she has made the whole world drunk on her wine.

From a historical point of view it seems strange to me that one of the pillars of Christianity didn’t come into existence or wasn’t recognized until 300 years after the death of Christ. On this point alone, I think its strange that we are encouraged not to question this doctrine and worse still, the the circumstances in which this doctrine came about should lead any clear thinking person to be at least suspicious.

In addition to that, the fruit of this doctrine appears to be bad. We know that one lie leads to another and history shows us that making Jesus God, opened the door for Mary to become the mother of God. Further, if Mary is the Mother of God, then that opens the door to the worship of other humans or saints.

In Revelation 17 we read about the ‘Mother of Harlots’ or the Great Prostitute who sits on many waters. Many people have speculated on her identity. Some say it is New York or the USA, others say it is Rome. If you are not familiar with this section of scripture, then it would pay to read it now before reading on.

Lets imagine for a minute that it is Rome as Rome is after all known to this day as the city of 7 hills. Now Constantine the Roman Emperor who dictated to the church so called truth becomes the original model of the person we call the Pope today. The Pope sits on a throne with supreme authority to dictate so called truth to the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church admits by it’s very name that it’s roots are in Rome and many of the traditions she adheres to come from Pagan traditions and festivals and were re-branded as Christian back in the days of Emperor Constantine. In one sense we can see that these creeds led to the worship of idols and men and changed the truth of God to a lie. But in order for these man-made creeds and lies to be administered and managed, there needed to exist some kind of organization of man to manage the politics of enforcing such creeds. The organizations are of course the organized churches of which the Catholic church is perhaps the mother which would make the smaller denominations the harlots or daughters of the harlot. The term ‘Mother of Harlots’ of course leads us to wonder who the daughters or offspring are. We also read that the kings of the earth have committed adultery with this harlot and we all know that many world leaders befriend the organized church so they can leverage her influence for their own political agendas and to gain votes. There will however come a time when God will call his children out of her because he will judge her quickly.

Babel, Babylon, Egypt, and Rome all have one thing in common. Their motives were to become great and make a name themselves. They also built structures as a way of showing their greatness and prowess. But the spirit of Babylon, Egypt, and Rome also enslave the children of God and also hated them to the point of death. In Rev 17 we read that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and is guilty of all the martyrs. History also records the dreadful killings of Christians by Rome and the enslavement of Israel by Egypt, but how many people are aware that the Catholic Church is also responsible for burning to death millions of people including Christians. They were killed as ‘heretics’ for things like reading scripture, translating scripture, or daring to obey the scriptures instead of their traditions.

Many denominations today still operate under this spirit of control including the persecution of those who question doctrines like the Trinity. Try questioning this doctrine in any denomination that is built on this creed, and watch the horror on people’s faces and the warnings that will proceed thereafter.

We know from scripture that the curse of Babel was division. The Babylonians built a tower in their name and God divided their language to weaken them, lest they succeed in all kinds of wickedness. But this spirit also exists in the organised churches. Each Denomination has its own creed, its own leaders and own customs or tradition, and they are all about making a name for themselves. They build towers in their name and in times past the steeples on these structure were the tallest structures in their communities. Now can you see that denominations are really just the divided languages of Christianity, just the same as divisions caused by multiple natural languages resulting from Babel. And the reason for this division is not what many think, it is so they cannot together succeed at works of iniquity and while in this divisive state, they cannot accomplish anything their hearts desire. True unity is extremely important and something that God will bring about and is already doing. But unity in the love and truth of God is paramount, not unity in making a name for themselves. People are misguided when they think that it would be a good thing if all the denominations united under one banner. What is better it people uniting in the truth because of their love of God and all things that are of him.

You might ask, God uses denominations to spread his gospel does he not. The quick answer to this is God uses men to do his work. If these men are part of a denomination or not, God uses the man, not the building and not the system. If you look into this you will likely find that the system actually hinders men in being led the the Spirit of God and the system itself takes up much resources to run, when instead such resources could help the poor and needy.

Many are being used by God for his purposes and this has been true since the birth of the Church. In times of great ignorance, it appears that God does compromise for our benefit. He works with what he can and we often limit God, but God is constantly trying to give us access to his limitless resources. In this age of denominations, it is hard to accept that there really is only one church built on the foundation of Christ and the Apostles. The only divisions are actually geographical divisions. The 7 churches in Revelation for example aren’t 7 separate churches, but 7 cities in which the Church resides. For example, in the Book of Revelation where it says: “to the Church in Laodecia”, it is saying to the Body of Christ in that particular city. We need to open our eyes in order to see the real Church. When you can really see the Body of Christ, you will never again say, I am going to church, because you will realize that we are the Church regardless of your location. This explains why we also read in 1 Corinthians 16:19: “The churches of Asia send greetings to you. Aquila and Prisca greet you warmly in the Lord, with the church that meets in their house.”. So this simply means the part of the Church that meets in that house. It was not a denomination like we see today.

Most denominations today have a Statement of Faith as their foundation and these are usually based on creeds formed centuries ago. Often Christians are invited or required to take out membership and that often requires an acceptance of a particular Statement of Faith. This sort of thing is common, yet it is unscriptural and deceives people into thinking that the denomination is the Church and once they have membership they belong to the Church. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Anyone can agree to a Statement of Faith or a Creed, even a mass murderer could do that. True believers believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Son of God, and the Messiah. The true Church is made up of God’s children and He dwells in them via his Spirit. Denominations on the other hand can contain true believers, but they can also contain non-believers, criminals, and unrepentant sinners. All true believers should use scripture and the Word of God as our Statement of Faith and we should realize that there is only One Church called the Body of Christ. The head of the true Church is Jesus Christ himself, not a Pope, Archbishop, or a president. We would do well to keep away from the words, wisdom and traditions of men.

Now the Trinity Doctrine says that God is made up of three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the only true God is the Father. The son is just that, he is the Son of God, not God himself.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The above scripture is not to be taken lightly. Do not pass over it until you have grasped it. After all, it is eternal life and isn’t that the point of having faith in God?

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Clearly, the God and Father of all is the Father and not Jesus. Jesus is the Lord according to the above scripture.

Instead of using the Trinity to describe the God and his relationship with his Son. how about use Jesus own words. Are not his words better than some creed that came from man? John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This scripture shows the same 3 levels that we see in the scripture below. Note: The word head means authority, head or source.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The scriptures show us that we believers are united in doctrine by believing the following:

• God exists and rewards those that seek him.
• We must repent of our sins and turn to God and serve him.
• Jesus is the only way to God and we should be baptized into his name.
• Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
• Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead to the highest position (throne), that he may present us to God, holy and sanctified.
• Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Church.
• The Spirit of God leads us and teaches us all things.
• That Jesus will return to earth and all the earthly kingdoms will fall. The Kingdom of God will come to earth.

I can have true unity of purpose with anyone that believes these points. The Trinity should never be pushed or taught as a doctrine, but today it is taught not only as a doctrine, but a foundational doctrine. However the Trinity Doctrine as a foundation is actually another foundation. Another foundation is not the same as the true foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now Matthew 16:13-18 has a key for us.
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus commends Peter when he declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Now Peter never said that Jesus was God at that opportune moment, but I am sure that many Christians given the same question today would say that he is God, yet that answer is different to the one Peter was commended for. Jesus actually built his Church on this truth, so it is obvious from this alone that the Trinity Doctrine is not the foundation of Jesus Church.

Now it is easy to show scriptures that show the Father to be God and there also appear to be a few scriptures that say that Jesus is God (Elohim, Theos). Most of the time Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Even the Devil and demons called him the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 & Matthew 4:3-6

But a lot of people also ignore the fact that we humans are also called Gods. John 10:34 uses the word “theos” to describe Man.
Psalms 82:6 uses the word “Elohim” to describe Man.

The word God is also used for Idols and Satan.
Exodus 20:23 uses the word “elohim” to describe Idols.
2 Corinthians 4:4 uses the word “theos” of this world to describe Satan.

But it must be made clear that ‘Elohim’ and ‘Theos’ are not names of God, they are titles in the same way Master is a title. When we see the word God, it is important to read the adjectives to see what kind of God is being referred to. E.g. the Most High God (the Father) is different to the God of this age (Satan).

Now there are many gods as I have pointed out, but the Father is the Most High God. See 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 which says
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Also remember that Jesus calls us brethren/brothers. But to the Father we are his children or offspring.

Now Psalm 2:7 says
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

So the name of the Most High God is (YHWH) which is referred to by scholars as Yahweh. So Yahweh (God) is the Father of Jesus. So it is clear that Jesus is not Yahweh. He is Yahweh’s Son. Now Jesus in Hebrew is Yashua and he is never referred to as Yahweh. Yashua means “Yahweh saves” or “Yahweh is salvation”. So God’s name is in his son’s name. (Yah)

Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Just like Trinitarians today, the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but Jesus defended this accusation with the following words in John 10:34-36
34 “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

So the Jews accused Jesus of saying he was God and instead of agreeing and saying something like “Yes I am God” Jesus defended himself with the statement “You are Gods (theos) and then he stresses that he was claiming to be the Son of God.” Many Christians still make the same mistake today. Read John 10:27-36 to read the above words of Jesus in context. In that context, Jesus even said to the Jews that the Father was greater than himself.

So who is Jesus. The following Statements are from the scriptures, and should be the words that we trust in in order to understand who Jesus really is.

• God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
  See Hebrews 1:1-6
• The Son is the exact brightness of God’s glory.
  See Hebrews 1:1-6
• He is the image of the invisible God.
  See Colossians 1:12-16
• God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
  See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
• He is seated at the right hand of God.
  See Colossians 3:1-3
• He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
  See Hebrews 1:1-6
• He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
  See Hebrews 1:1-6
• God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”.
  See Hebrews 1:1-6
• He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
  See Revelation 1:4-6
• Jesus has first place in everything.
  See Colossians 1:18
• Jesus is head over the Church.
  See Ephesians 1:22
• He is Gods firstborn.
  See Hebrews 1:1-6
• Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
  See Revelation 3:14
• Jesus is begotten, not created.
  See John 1:3

The last scripture above, shows us that Jesus was not created. Many other scriptures show us that Jesus is begotten (born). See John 1:18 & John 3:18

Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. Yes we too are the Sons of God, but we were begotten from God through his Word (Christ). All creation was made this way. But Jesus was begotten directly from God and he is the exact image of God. And we (the church) are the image of Christ. Again I point out the importance of 1Corinthians 11:3 and Colossians 2:8-10 which says,
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Here we can see clearly that Christ is the fullness of God and we the Church are the fullness of Christ. So consider this, if we use this scripture to say that Jesus is God, then in all fairness we have to conclude that we are Christ. This is of course a misinterpretation of scripture. The truth is that Jesus has the divine nature and God also wants us to share that nature too. So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us.

To be divine and to be the Divine is two different things. One identifies a nature and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his sons who are part of his family. Christ has divine nature as the Son is like his Father. But did you know hat we can also partake of the divine nature and still not be God? And if you understand that, then it must be that if Jesus has divine nature, then that also does not make him God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Moving on, Matthew 24:36 shows us clearly that the Son doesn’t know everything, yet God is all knowing.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. My confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord and I believe that all will confess this one day. And I also believe that God is Spirit and Invisible and that he resides inside and outside of his creation. See 2 Chronicles 2:6. Similar to physical light, it is invisible except that it reveals all things. Now when light strikes a prism it reflects all the colours and this is like Christ. He reveals and reflects God who is light. Jesus reveals the Invisible Spirit who dwells in him. Jesus has a body and the glory of God is visible to us in Christ. There is no other way for us to se God or to know God or to fellowship with God. Jesus is the only Mediator between Man and God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Jesus is the Image of God and he is seated on the Fathers throne above creation and Jesus seats us on his throne.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. Jesus calls his Father, God and he says that his God is also our God. See John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” & Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Also in John 8:28 we read the following:
Jesus said “I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me”

Now 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows us clearly that Jesus is not God.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When the Most High God is being referred to, it is always talking about the Father.

John 3:16 says
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To sum up: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 embodies what I am saying.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The Trinity makes and idol out of God. Its no different to making a graven image from your hands as it is to make God into a diagram in your mind. It is the nature of Man to do so. The Trinity and Nicene Creed is the founding document to the man made organized religion that has suppressed and kept in fear many of Gods people. Upon that creed many heresies followed. If its origin is man then its fruit will be death, control and fear and history has revealed the fruit of this doctrine. God is a person and the Trinity Doctrine says that God is a class/family. We know that there are many gods, so the word ‘god’ can be used in the sense of class, but there is only one God the person otherwise there would be more than 1 God. I and many others including the Jews believe that God is a person, not an organization. Perhaps God is calling us out of Egypt and her gods. This is where the Trinity Doctrine came from and the Egyptians already worshipped a Trinity before the gospel reached them. All they did was replace the names. But the concept remains the same. A Christian appearance but a pagan heart. Two more scriptures before I finish.

Proverbs 8:22-30 Talks about someone who was brought forth by God, yet existed before creation and witnessed God creating the Cosmos.
Matthew 3:17 says “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” So WHO is Jesus? He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Word of God, the Image of God and the Wisdom of God. He is of God and shares his nature, but he is not that God in identity. The true God is his Father and our Father.

For a more in depth look at this subject, see the writing The Trinity Doctrine.

[Luke2]

Okay, I am wrestling with my own thoughts on Jesus. I have no doubt that He is my Lord and my God to whom I owe my very existence. His pre-existence before His conception in Mary’s womb is not something I have any doubts about. He is the Word spoken by God that brought about creation and upholds it still. There is so much to God that is beyond my understanding that I don’t waste energy attempting to understand it. The things that I can wrap my mind around boggles me enough without getting frustrated trying to understand the unexplainable.

But I do search out the things I can understand and seek to learn more all the time. One thing (among many) that you and I can agree on is that Jesus the man was exactly that – A man, a mere human being. A helpless infant who went hungry until someone fed him, who needed his diapers changed until he was toilet trained, who had to crawl until he learned to walk.

A little boy who heard about the circumstances of his birth, second hand, from Mary and Joseph. A boy who learned about the Messiah from hearing adult conversations, A young student who learned about himself as he learned the scriptures and learned to hide them in his heart. A boy who began to realize that the Messiah wasn’t coming as the great and glorious conquering King but as the suffering servant.

I was reviewing the list of desired character traits of the Godly man. At the bottom of the list is this phrase: Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

I believe the mystery is the very real humanity of Jesus. A solid, three dimensional, down to earth humanity of Jesus. Jesus, in the flesh. I keep exalting Him because He is worthy of all honor and glory and praise. But in exalting Him I often, too often tend to overlook his humanity.

His incarnation was not a shadow play. not a Potemkin village or a false front to fool an audience until the play is complete. When He became a man, he became a man for all of eternity. I had understood that He became flesh and dwelt among us and that during that time He had emptied Himself of His Godhood and became totally like us, yet without sin, (both in His birth and in the life He lived.) I had assumed that after His resurrection and ascent into glory; that He took up estate as God once again.

I wrote something for myself as a meditation on Jesus. I would appreciate insight and comments.

Jesus was in all ways a human being. This is the mystery of Godliness.

He had no more power than any of us but He learned total dependance on His Father for every word that He spoke and every action that He took. He exercised no power of His own, but relied on the Holy Spirit.

This youngster, before He was born, was already written of in the volume of the book!

By His study of the book, He came to learn about Himself, and He learned things that He must have quailed at and yet he grew in Spirit and stature and Godliness. I imagine that it was both frightening and overwhelming for this boy as He came to understand that the Messiah must first come, not as a triumphant and glorious King which almost everyone around Him was expecting.

He probably learned about the strange circumstances surrounding His birth, at his mother’s knee, and began to get understanding of the implications. He also probably learned about the coming King when hearing the adults talk together. What boy wouldn’t have his imagination captured by the idea of the great and glorious conqueror. (I know that as a boy I often imagined that I could swing through the trees like Tarzan, or be a mighty super hero like Clark Kent, or be knight of the round table, my imagination let me play many heroic roles, but I didn’t have anything in reality to support my imaginary roles.

I wasn’t a descendant of David. My birth wasn’t announced by angels. No Magi bearing gifts came to pay their respects. My parents weren’t told to go to Egypt to protect me. I didn’t have a mad king slaughter all the boys two years and younger in the village of my birth.. No heavenly agent appeared to tell my parents the coast was clear and bring me back to Israel. My cousin and I may have born some months apart but there was no supernatural element involved. Nothing in the circumstances of my life gave me cause to believe I might be a longed for and often prophesied Savior of my people.) But Jesus actually had reason to believe that He was that great King. I can imagine Him coming to the realization that He was not come as the conquering King but as the Suffering Servant. A scorned man, rejected by His own, betrayed and abandoned, cruelly beaten and then hung upon a tree. I imagine that the boy must have needed comforting and counseling often.

And Who alone could provide that encouragement?

The Father must have shown Jesus things to come, as a result of His suffering and shame, but only if He set His face like iron and moved forward to endure the Cross.

What a marvelous glory must He have shown Jesus to encourage Him to look beyond the horrible suffering and rejection to a incredible situation. One which enabled Him to actually scorn the suffering set before Him in order to obtain the reward. A reward that would free all of Gods creation from the curse of sin and death.

By His obedience even to the point of enduring the cross, He won a victory for the entire human race and wrested creation out of the hands of Satan. He obtained a ministry more excellent than the earthly priesthood. A better covenant with better promises. Promises that He has been both charged with keeping and empowered to bring about.

While He is continually mediating before the throne for all of his people, He is also preparing a place for us and He is readying to return to earth, in the flesh, with the victory of a fully restored and new creation.

A creation that is no longer groaning for the restoration of mankind, but rejoicing as the human race is not only restored but actually elevated even higher than the original estate we had been created for under Adam.

This is the mystery but there is more.

He could have easily have replaced this fallen creation with something else, but God, of His own free will, out of love for a creation, elected to divest Himself of His Godness and become a mere human being like James Smith or Jane Doe or Jose Imanez. He became Jesus, just another guy and a not very impressive looking guy at that., who had no more supernatural power than was available to anyone else. This homely little man won salvation for the entire human race. (All who choose to accept it.) And salvation for the creation that was brought low by man’s fall. By winning through to the victory Jesus won the crown and received His reward. He is installed at the right hand of the Father, His name is exalted above all names. He has earned, for humanity’s sake, a priesthood that is more efficacious than the one established by Moses.

He is still a man, still a human being, depending on the Father and the Holy Spirit and not his own power! Exalted and glorified and honored and praised. Yet He still elects to be as we are so that He might continue to be our great high priest. One who understands because He has been tempted in all ways just as we are and knows our weakness because He is weak. .

At what point will He take up His Godhood and the estate He held before His incarnation? Never? Or only after He has brought us with Him to an unimaginable elevation? Is He currently fully human and fully God; no longer reliant on the Father and the Holy Spirit but able to act in His own power. Is the power of the name of Jesus empowered by the Father or by the Son or the Holy Spirit?

I think Jesus is still reliant on the power of the Holy Spirit and depending on the Father for counsel and comfort. I think that He still has work to do and is doing it as the man Christ Jesus. Glorified, yes, But glorified just as we will be glorified for His names sake. He has yet to bring all things under His dominion and present them to the Father. He will do these things and He will do them as a man. No wonder Satan thinks he has a chance of winning. He doesn’t have much respect for human beings. (and with justification, considering our record.) But He is no match for the man Christ Jesus, who defeated him on the cross and will complete the task in due time.

Jesus has much yet to do, He will complete His work as a human being not as God. As He completes His work and moves forward and upward He will bring us with Him. He chose to become Human for our sake and He will always be human. And yet we will be there, when He takes His throne and all of heaven worships Him and sings
Holy, Holy, Holy…Lord God Almighty.

[hoofsofbronze]

For anyone interested in a thoroughly researched and in-depth Scriptural rebuttal of the Trinity doctrine I highly recommend the book: “Theology Simplified” by Lonzo Pribble.

May God the Father challenge and correct the understanding of more of the saints to come to better know the One true God and His Son Jesus Christ.

[laneyboy]

Just as me and my son have the same last name and share the same genetics, so does God the Father and Jesus Christ, the Son!!!

[Admin]

This is the difference between identity and nature. It is even written that we can participate in divine nature. But having or participating in divine nature doesn’t make you God as being a spirit doesn’t make you God. In identity, there is one God, the Father. This is written too.

[gentleness]

I hear this so often, “there is just one God and that is the Father.” What they fail to realize is that Jehovah is not just God but also Lord and there is just one Lord and that is the Son,.

Deut 10:17
“For Jehovah your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

The NT makes it clear who the Lord of lords is:
Rev 17:14
“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

There is just one Jehovah and Jehovah just happens to be both God AND Lord…Father and Son.

[Admin]

The LORD in the Old Testament is not the same word as lord (kurios) in the New Testament. LORD in the Old Testament is the word used in the place of YHWH.

[gentleness]

See this verse in the OT:

Deut 10:17″For the LORD (YHVH Strongs 3068) your God is the God of gods and the Lord (Strongs #136) of lords (Strong’s #113), the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

In that verse there are three different Hebrew words for the three different words translated as LORD, Lord, and lord.

I hope that helps 🙂

[Admin]

Jesus said he was the light of the world and later he said we were the light of the world. Clearly we are not Jesus. But when people start to play around with titles, they can wrongly ascribe things to the wrong identity.

The Devil for example is called the God of this age and many say that the Devil is not a god and thus say that the God of this age is YHWH.

Context is everything. Jesus Father is God and Jesus is his son. Most false teachers try to infringe on this truth in one way or another.

Rather than trying to draw a truth indirectly from one verse in one book and another from another book, why not just accept a direct verse like the following that needs no inference whatsoever.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

No special interpretations or alignment of titles needed. You just read it and believe it or read it and reject it.

[gentleness]

When people play around with titles or words, certainly they can get all twisted up and far from truth. However when the Bible confirms that there is a God and a Lord who are for us and combines the two persons throughout the NT as two who act together in creation and salvation and then reign eternally with dominion over all creation, you are not just talking about a title in common. Why throw out the ‘smoking gun?’

An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest. I choose to cease to be mistaken.

[Admin]

I gave you a clear and simple verse either here or in another page and you chose to ignore it. So it was you who actually threw out the smoking gun. Obviously your view on these titles contradicts Jesus own words when he said in John 17:3:
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

Your interpretation relies on joining up dots or verses from one testament with another and yet the verse I have given you relies on no additional construct or method. When you read it you either believe Jesus or you don’t. It is that simple. You clearly do not believe what Jesus said in this case.

You may have noticed by now that I have started a new topic in the Hot Seat forum for this. It is here if you haven’t seen it yet.

Hot Seat topic

[Bible Geezer]

I am seriously reconsidering my views on the trinity doctrine(again). I was raised as a Roman Catholic, but even as a child in school I would press my RE teacher to explain the trinity, only to be told “you will understand it when you die”. Not a very satisfying answer for a young enquiring mind, I guess she didn’t understand it either.

Later in life I began a study with Jehovah’s Witnesses and was happy with their refutation of the trinity, and although I never actually became a JW; some of their teaching remains with me to this day, despite having confessed Jesus as Lord almost 20 years ago.

The churches I have attended since becoming born-again wer and still are trinitarian. If I were to make an all out statement rejecting the trinity doctrine, I am sure I would either be disfellowshipped, or at very least, viewed with great suspicion and never be entrusted with any role within the church again.

I also have problems with the paganism still evident at such times as Easter and Christmas. I have tentatively tried to point out God’s displeasure with these thing, but they fall on deaf ears.

Looks like Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus christ will have to do the job directly; when men try to do so they are branded as heretics or cultists.

Every blessing

[Proclaimer]

Hi BG.

Most denominations are based on the Doctrine of the Trinity. My view is to not belong to any denomination, but realise that we are the Body of Christ instead. The latter stance is how the body will be one and not divided, and the former will continue to discourage the world from believing that Jesus is from God.

John 17:20-21
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

So be encouraged. Your faith is not reliant on denominations but your faith in God and his son Jesus Christ.

Denominations are usually the result of a breakup of the Roman Catholic Church and the continual splitting away of new groups. This is similar to Babel where God divided men based on their building of a great tower in their own name. The result was division by language and like Babel, God has allowed the division of denominations for building in their own names to their own glory and with their own hands.

Like their mother, the daughters still hold the main tenet of their doctrine which is the Athanasian Creed:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith, except a man keep whole and integral, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. Now the Catholic Faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.

The voice we hear is “Come out of her my people”. For our faith is this:

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

and

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Amen.

[Andrew AD]

It was after listening to a debate on the trinity I decided to study it out.I was trinitarian myself but after hearing the debate which was with a modalist,I felt somehow that neither were correct.It was then,at the end of June that I found this article”Testing the Trinity”on the old website after doing a google search on how the trinity doctrine came about.I bookmarked it and read and reread it for an entire weekend and refer to it still.It really opened my eyes and I appreciate the spirit in which it was written.I’ve argued with JW’s a few times through the years who make some of the same points but always seemed to denigrate Christ.This article didn’t turn me off but brought conviction of the truth that was hard to deny.
After years of attending churches on and off but not reading the Bible,I now am in love with God,Jesus Christ,and His word once again.
Thanks for the courage and conviction to share the truth in love.

[Admin]

Hi Andrew.

It is great to get encouraging feedback like this.
🙂

[David]

There is not Trinity. I came to that conclusion after years of being troubled by my belief in something that I simply could not prove from scripture. Aside from all the verses that disprove the Trinity, and the absence of those that might, I saw one day something quite simple: The Father, the only begotten Son, who is also divine, and those who are IN the Son. That is the plan of God. That is inheritance. And it has the pattern of FAMILY. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? He is an uncle? The point is, there is no person called the Holy Spirit. That is why the spirit is always called, “the Spirit OF God,” and not, “the Spirit who IS God.” The Holy Spirit is the very spirit of the Father and Son — it is them in spirit — come to dwell in us. This alone explains all the verses. And it alone fits the plan of God.

[paranhaslett]

Would you consider it blasphemous if I forgave your sins?

Why?

If I cannot forgive your sins on Gods behalf why could Jesus?
Luke 5:17-26
Note that he does not explain how he could forgive sins just that he could.

What I am saying is unless Jesus is completely God as well as completely man his payment on the cross does not convey Gods forgiveness to us. Inquire of the Holy Spirit about the identity of Jesus so that when Jesus asks you about who you think he is you can provide your own answer (not Peters answer)

[paranhaslett]

I know this is difficult to comprehend but when the eternal transforms into the temporal it cannot cease to be. By this I mean that God is by nature at all points in time and space, if he was to become like us not only would he become human but have to restrict himself to our perception of time and space. Being eternal this is not completely possible thus according to our perception at a particular time and space Jesus (God the Son) can converse with God the Father and/or God the Holy Spirit. Thus from our view we see it as the Trinity despite it in fact being one eternal being.

[Admin]

Jesus was GIVEN authority to forgive sins. If God gave you the authority, then you could.

And Jesus does not need to be God and Man to provide a good enough payment for all our sins.

It is written that by one Man sin came into the world and similarly, by one man righteousness came.

The idea that God needs to die as a man is not a big enough price is a myth. Was Adam God or man? Did not one man make humanity fall? Is Satan more powerful than God. Satan can make all men fall through one man, and yet God needs to die to destroy the Devil’s work?

What you say are popular myths, but scripture has the answer to these questions.

[Admin]

Not difficult to comprehend what you say. It’s just not in scripture.

[Author]

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