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@Miia & others
Adding the “a” (as the JW “New World Translation” does) and turning the subject (The only true God and His spoken word) into a second smaller god seems wrong somehow. Since when is someones spoken word a separate being? Just as the Spirit.
An error is made on both sides of the argument.
- JWs say: ‘a god’
- Trinitarians basically say ‘the God’.
In other words, JWS see the Word as another god next to the main God and Trinitarians see the Word as God himself.
There are problems with both interpretations and both have to add in ‘THE’ or ‘A’ (in their understanding) which is not actually in the original text.
The JW argument implies that there are multiple gods which we actually do read about. e.g., “Although there are so-called gods, for us there is One God…” & “ye are god, ye are all sons of the Most High God”. So I cannot completely write off their view. But it is still assumes that it is talking about one other god that is with the main God, and doesn’t take into account the qualitative use of god/theos/elohim which we see legitimately used in other passages.
The Trinitarian argument is even more flawed because reading the text as if it is talking about the one true God, then Jesus is God to the exclusion of the Father. When you say that Obama is THE president, then that means that no one else is. It would have to say “and the Father and the Word were God” to include both as God. The Trinitarian view is further flawed in that John 1:1 does not mention at all their 3rd member of their Trinity. So in the beginning was a Binity is all they can argue with their logic which is flawed anyway.
The Trinity has been drummed into Catholics for centuries as it is the foundation of their faith. They persecuted and killed those who denied their foundation over the centuries. Is it any surprise that today in the world, most who call themselves ‘Christian’ believe this doctrine without question. The doctrine has over a thousand years of establishment and enforcement.
What our view is should be as follows:
For the wise and those who seek however, we should test all things and not accept things without checking the whole counsel of scripture. John said that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one and Jesus said that the wide path (mainstream) leads to destruction. Do not be surprised at the level of deception that is possible in this world. There are many lies but one truth. That truth is obtainable by anyone if they search for it. It is extremely valuable and trading truth for doctrines of demons or men is tantamount to being ripped off.miia
The Quran does in fact say that God has no son and their is no trinity, regarding God not having a son or any sons at all be they angels or otherwise is because the idea never was meant to be literal because if it is literal then the Catholics are correct when they say that “Mary is the Mother of God” and is the reason she is called the “Queen of Heaven” if she is the queen of heaven who would be the king? It couldn’t be her child so it would be God and there were people and still may be people who believed that God,Jesus and Mary were a trinity:
Now most non-Catholics may say it is a misunderstanding on my part but it’s not at all because they believe:
Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin… so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.”
Now the point is not whether this represents the trinity the way all trinitarians outside the Catholic church believe it is the point that saying 3 is an inherently wrong and misleading thing to say or believe.
To say God and 3 is to weaken or dilute God and it is the same as to say he has a literal son as though he needed progeny to continue life so the Quran cleanses the language:
Surah 4:171 O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and
- His word
which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
To be called a son is the greatest honor but this is not literal, you must understand that in Jewish culture it would not in any way be taken literally but gentiles really have a difficult time with these things they were really quite foolish and paganistic:
Deuteronomy 32:21
They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.Romans 10:19
But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”There you have it do you not know how Jews see most Christians as foolish, you don’t think they completely understand that Jesus is not God and there is no TRINITY but oh well the Jews have been unfaithful to God and not being strict monotheist so God is making them angry on purpose because the gentiles are receiving what they rejected even though most of them have no idea of what they are even worshiping. The Quran was sent down to say okay they rejected the messiah and you guys are making them feel good about it but now we will confirm that you have really rejected the Messiah and WE KNOW WHAT WE WORSHIP and the JEWS KNOW what we worship so now there is no excuse
Ed,
Just because God’s word accomplishes what he wants it to,
it does NOT make his word his son; did you somehow think it does?It is a Jewish way of looking at things. After all some of them call God’s wisdom his daughter. Johns often write to Jew as that is who is indicated by his method. Matthew also writes to Jews but there ways are different, though no less complex than the one John writes to.
I am not sure John calls God’s word God’s Son but it could be done.
The thought that comes to me is this…Jesus gave sight to those who were blind from birth; He healed incurable diseases, made the lame and crippled whole again, brought the dead back to life; liberated souls from the torment of demonic possession; exercised power over the elements and forces of nature; He defeated Death and all of man’s spiritual enemies, then ascended back to the Father… yet the one thing He could never change was those religious people who thought they understood the Scriptures, who had made themselves authorities on what the Scriptures meant… those who had created doctrines based on their own interpretation of Scripture – these were the people who had become hardened in their own conceit, rejecting the voice and work of the Spirit, because the living truth didn’t align with their own misguided understanding..
..it was the wise and the knowledgeable that missed out, while the poor and the childlike received the kingdom of heaven..so also you cannot see who Jesus is, because of the dead teachings you hold onto – you miss the simple truth because you assume the truth is some kind of correct doctrine – instead of a living revelation.. so you make the Scriptures dead because you dissect the letter but ignore the Spirit.
Your own knowledge deceives you…casting twisted shadows over Scripture you attempt to create god in your own image, turning the Bible into Babble – if you would take the Scriptures simply as they stand (without any preconceived thoughts on the trinity)… the co-unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is perfectly clear and easy to understand… but it seems that your head is jammed up with dogma, and you are unable now to separate these historic doctrines from the pure inspiration of God’s word…
Jesus existed with God before the world began – He existed in the FORM of God – just as later on earth He existed in the FORM of man…you people see Jesus in human form and acknowledge His humanity, but you do not see Him in the form of God – therefore you deny His deity…(and all of the Scriptures that refer to it).
DavidL
Please consider the fact that I am willing to accept being wrong if it can be shown, can you do the same? Let’s both vow to be honest and examine these things openly, being prepared to accept what we find, okay?
I can completely understand why you would imagine miracles a justification for calling Jesus God and even though I see those miracles as God working through Jesus, I can see how you would come to your conclusion so accepting that I would like for you to then tell me what to do with these scriptures:
2 Kings 4:31-35English Standard Version (ESV)
31 Gehazi went on ahead and laid the staff on the face of the child, but there was no sound or sign of life. Therefore he returned to meet him and told him, “The child has not awakened.”
32 When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed. 33 So he went in and shut the door behind the two of them and prayed to the Lord. 34 Then he went up and lay on the child, putting his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands. And as he stretched himself upon him, the flesh of the child became warm. 35 Then he got up again and walked once back and forth in the house, and went up and stretched himself upon him. The child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
1 Kings 17:19-22King James Version (KJV)
19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
20 And he cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again.
22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
These remind me of Jesus:
John 11:42-44King James Version (KJV)
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
OR how about this
I’m sure you already recall the miracle of Jesus turning water in to wine and that reminds me of this:
Elijah has 8 miracles listed
1. Shut up the heavens causing a drought 1 Kings 17:14
2. Multiplied flour and oil for a widow 1 Kings 17:14-16
3. Raised the widow’s son from the dead 1 Kings 17:22-23
4. Defeated the prophets of Baal with fire from heaven 1 Kings 18:25-38
5. Brought rain to end the drought 1 Kings 18:41-45
6. Destroyed 50 soldiers with fire and lightening 2 Kings 1:9-10
7. Destroyed another 50 soldiers with fire and lightening 2 Kings 1:11-12
8. Parted the waters of the Jordan River 2 Kings 2:8Elisha has 16 miracles in the Bible
1. Parted the waters of the Jordan River 2 Kings 2:14
2. Purified water 2 Kings 2:19-22
3. Sent bears to ravage his attackers 2 Kings 2:23-24
4. Caused a flood to save Israel and to foil the Moabites 2 Kings 3:14-25
5. Made a miraculous flow of oil for a widow 2 Kings 4:2-7
6. Gave fertility to the woman of Shunem 2 Kings 4:8-17
7. Raised a child from the dead 2 Kings 4:32-37
8. Purified poisoned soup 2 Kings 4:38-41
9. Multiplied loaves to feed a large crowd 2 Kings 4:42-44
10. Healed Naaman of leprosy 2 Kings 5:1-19
11. Gehazi cursed with leprosy 2 Kings 5:20-27
12. Made an iron axe head float 2 Kings 6:1-7
13. Struck the Aramaeans blind 2 Kings 6:18
14. Prophesied the end of the Aramaean siege 2 Kings 7:1-20
15. Prophesied the death of Ben-Hadad and the rise of Hazael 2 Kings 8:7-15
16. Prophesied Israel would defeat Aram 2 Kings 13:14-19So should I now believe that these 2 men are also God?
Here is also something very important:
2 kings 2:9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?” “Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
2 Kings 2 15The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, “The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha.” And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him.
This reminds me of:
John 20: 21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit”.
Now according to what we have here I have to ask you…I have shown you these 3 men of God all doing similar Miracles are all of them God? why would one of them not be God according to your reasoning of why Jesus is God?
In fact in the case of Elisha so much spirit was in him that this happened: 2 Kings 13:21 Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.
WOW!!!! now that is raising someone from the dead even after they are dead and Elijah ascended up into heaven just like when Jesus ascended into heaven
Acts 1:9-12New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
So DavidL these are my reasons for considering Jesus a Man of God in the Highest caliber and Honor but if I saw him as God please tell me why I wouldn’t feel the same about these other prophets?
Hi davidl,
..Jesus of Nazareth was anointed by the HOLY SPIRIT AND POWER and went about doing good..”acts 10
But you say this anointing was quite unnecessary?
NickHassan..
But you say this anointing was quite unnecessary?
or…maybe your logic is letting you down again.?!
Your own knowledge deceives you…casting twisted shadows over Scripture you attempt to create god in your own image, turning the Bible into Babble
Yet we teach as Jesus did that the only true God is his Father and we teach in accordance with Paul who said, “for us there is one God the Father”. And you teach the Trinity which is not written. There is no reference to 3 persons being around eternally anywhere in scripture. Instead there is God and then his son.
We cannot agree with you DavidL, unless you teach something that is from scripture. Then we will listen. The Trinity Doctrine you teach came 3 centuries or so later, well after the deception and falling away that Paul warned would happen after he passed away.
This doctrine came in a dark time and led to more dark times. If we are children of the light we will only accept the light.
Hi davidl,
So please reveal the meaning of this verse for us.
Acts 10.38
Show us that logic makes it mean something different from what it says.
Bodhitharta…
I can completely understand why you would imagine miracles a justification for calling Jesus God..
Sorry – I never said that, nor was I implying that…
If you had read my post through you would have seen that my point was this, although Jesus had power to do all these things, yet the one thing He could never do was change religious people who thought they understood the Scriptures, people who had made themselves authorities on God’s Word… and created teachings based on their own interpretation of Scripture – these people had become hardened in their own conceit, rejecting the voice and work of the Spirit, because the living truth didn’t align with their own misguided conclusions. Jesus called these teachers, ‘blind guides’… and this is what I see on this site – teachings based on logic and natural reasoning, that are presented as truth – when really they are completely uninspired and false.
Jesus existed with God before the world began – He existed in the FORM of God – just as later on earth He existed in the FORM of man…you people see Jesus in human form and acknowledge His humanity, but you do not see Him in the form of God – therefore you deny His deity…(and of course, all of the Scriptures that refer to it).
I sure don’t have all the answers but one thing I do know is that you guys are sadly lost concerning the reality of Jesus.. and ironically, debates only seem to cement people further into their own doctrinal delusions…
Well Nick, what can I say – it’s the trinity in one verse…Father, Son, Holy Spirit..!
(no logic needed on my part)
t8 –
we teach as Jesus did that the only true God is his Father..
Nice try – you teach what the JW’s teach…and deny the true deity of Jesus Christ..
..you say John 1:1 has been worded wrongly by the Bible translators yet, for all your criticism, you cannot say how this verse should be worded.
DavidL, you are not paying attention. I have told you on multiple occasions on how it is worded. Please take note so you don’t have to accuse me again. And no excuses later on after reading this, unless you want to venture toward bearing false witness.
It is worded in the exact same manner when Jesus said: “ye are theos/gods”. When Jesus said this, there was no definite article just as you see in John 1:1. When Jesus said, “ye are theos/gods” he was quoting a verse that said: “Ye are elohim, ye are all sons of the Most High God”. He was not saying that the Pharisees are God as you think John 1:1 is saying. Then take note that Jesus never agreed that he called himself God, rather he corrected them by saying this in John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
And remember that the verse that Jesus quoted says: “ye are all sons of the Most High God”.
Do you see that DavidL? We are on the side of Jesus in this debate as we say he is the son of God, and you are on the side of the Pharisees who said he was claiming to be God.
See it now?
Hi davidl ,
Surely you have not fallen into the trap of accepting the additions 1 jn5.7?
God backs Himself [2Cor 13.1f]so find the same thing written elsewhere … and do work on Acts 10.38
Hi davidl,
How can you know the Father and the Son if you prefer to worship an odd manmade trinity god?
Hi davidl,
Jesus said he was going to ascend to his Father and our Father to his God and our God Jn 20
Was he going back to some sort of trinity he was part of??
🙂
Yes, if he is going to God who is also our God, then those that belong to God will go to the Father as Jesus did. In fact Jesus said it himself. “No man comes to the Father except by me”. Jesus is the prototype son, and we are sons. We will be like him and have a body like his too. He calls us brethren, but God is not our brother. He is the Father. “For us there is one God the Father”. This is fundamental to the true faith. Amen.
The Trinity has been drummed into Catholics for centuries as it is the foundation of their faith. They persecuted and killed those who denied their foundation over the centuries
t8,
And it is still obvious today. They may not persecute and kill as they used to, but they still try in other ways.
Surah 4:171 O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and
Bd,
Then why does scripture say that Jesus was the only begotten son of God, and he is certainly more than a messenger, wouldn’t you agree? He is definitely more than anyone else who lived. Islam puts Jesus too low.
Trinity, on the other hand misunderstands who Jesus was, imo. I remember once requesting a Bible which had God’s name in it from the local christian bookstore. They ordered it for me, but I was disappointing to see not the name of GOD (YHWH) but instead it still had LORD in the OT and in the NT it had Yeshua. It seemed they were confused as to who I meant by “God”. Fortunately, I went into a second hand shop and found an old (Catholic) bible which had the name Yahweh all through the OT and that was after praying. And they charged me nothing, they said they don’t sell bibles, whereas the one from the Christian bookstore was quite expensive. Still, I don’t judge Trinitarians though they may judge us. Muslims though, friend, need Jesus.
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