- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2013,11:17) Mike, Paul starts talking like a Jew and I doubt anyone is interested in understanding such talk.
Well let's just throw the entire Bible out then. Because, in case you didn't realize it, it was written by Jews.
Mike….. We are not adding anything Jesus said many times God was “IN” Him , now in our understanding if God and his Word are one and the Same, and God who is Spirit was truly “IN” Jesus, (as He said He was), then that is how the word who is God, came to be “IN” Flesh.
You can not give us one example of a actual Word “really” being Flesh , becasue words are expressions from the Spirit and the Spirit of God was “IN” the Flesh man Jesus, that is exactly why Jesus said the words he Spoke was not his words, the the words of the Father which was “IN” Him.
Simple to anyone who understands the truth of God.We don't need to make a metaphysical, false IMAGE of Jesus to fit our understanding, as those who preach a LIE about Jesus do. WE have “ONE” GOD, and “ONE” MEDIATOR between that GOD and man and it is the “man” Jesus who is the Christ.
peace and love………………………………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,04:53) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2013,11:17) Mike, Paul starts talking like a Jew and I doubt anyone is interested in understanding such talk.
Well let's just throw the entire Bible out then. Because, in case you didn't realize it, it was written by Jews.
Mike,What can I say, there seem to be some that think that if it is Jewish then it is wrong as Jews don't believe that Jesus is Christ.
Mike,
Here is a Jewish tenet
Genesis 1:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This is the first use of create in Scripture and it speaks of the first instance of a physical creation.
Genesis 1:21
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
This is the second instance and it speaks of the first instance where creatures called living nephesh(souls) are created.
Genesis 1:27
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
This is the third instance but it is the first instance mention of a spiritual creation.
It is easy enough to see where they are coming from and this teaching is clearly based on Scripture but I don't see it at all in the Christian conversation of today and it seem of little import to even the Jews of this time.
Looking at it you have an order to the first occurrence to the three types of creation, 1st the physical, next the soulish, third the spiritual.
Genesis 2:7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
I see the physical is the first to occur in that man was formed out of the dust of the ground.
I see the soulish is the next to occur in that man became a living soul.
I don't see the spiritual from this verse but we do in Genesis 1:27 where it comes after the soulish.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,04:10) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 06 2013,23:12) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 06 2013,23:14) Wakeup, I have done two walkthroughs of my reasoning and expect you to use reason and do the same. I also expect you to address them with using a well reasoned argument.
Kerwin>Use logic,The *Word was spirit* made flesh.
How can the Reward be a *lesser body* than previously,
when He was spirit?Was that his reward for being faithful to his God?
wakeup.
Wakeup,Where is it written that a body that is made alive by the Spirit is inferior to any other body?
Also the Word is spirit are words Jesus uttered after the Word was made flesh in him. What he is teaching us is that he utters Spiritual things because he is a Spirituals man. They are understood Spiritually.
1 Corinthians 2:13-14
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
His reward for being faithful to God was that he was appointed as Lord of all things in heaven and on earth.
Philippians 2:9-11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I did use logic in both my walkthroughs and you have only denied that reasoning by choosing not to address them with sound and valid reason supported by Scripture.
Kerwin.Can you define soul for us?
wakeup.
Wakeup,
I can tell you some about it but I do not know everything.
1) Man first becomes a living soul when the breath combines with the flesh.
2) A man dies when his soul departs his body.
3) A soul does not die when it is separated from its body.
4) A soul descends to the Grave while the body resides at its burial place.
5) The souls in the Grave are shadows of the persons they were.
6) The body is cloths for the soul.
7) The soul either loves darkness or hungers and thirsts for righteousness.
8) A soul is only destroyed in the Lake of Fire.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,04:52) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2013,11:10) ….the Word is spirit are words Jesus uttered after the Word was made flesh in him.
Still adding that word “IN” into John 1:14, huh?I wonder what doctrine you guys would come up with if you were prohibited from adding your own words into the scriptures. Perhaps the truth?
Mike,That argument is irrational as John 1:14 does not tell how the word was made flesh.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2013,05:10) Mike….. We are not adding anything Jesus said many times God was “IN” Him , now in our understanding if God and his Word are one and the Same, and God who is Spirit was truly “IN” Jesus, (as He said He was), then that is how the word who is God, came to be “IN” Flesh. You can not give us one example of a actual Word “really” being Flesh , becasue words are expressions from the Spirit and the Spirit of God was “IN” the Flesh man Jesus, that is exactly why Jesus said the words he Spoke was not his words, the the words of the Father which was “IN” Him.
Simple to anyone who understands the truth of God.We don't need to make a metaphysical, false IMAGE of Jesus to fit our understanding, as those who preach a LIE about Jesus do. WE have “ONE” GOD, and “ONE” MEDIATOR between that GOD and man and it is the “man” Jesus who is the Christ.
peace and love………………………………………………….gene
Gene,Well thought out words.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,14:22) Wakeup, I can tell you some about it but I do not know everything.
1) Man first becomes a living soul when the breath combines with the flesh.
2) A man dies when his soul departs his body.
3) A soul does not die when it is separated from its body.
4) A soul descends to the Grave while the body resides at its burial place.
5) The souls in the Grave are shadows of the persons they were.
6) The body is cloths for the soul.
7) The soul either loves darkness or hungers and thirsts for righteousness.
8) A soul is only destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
Fear not them that can kill the body but can not touch
the soul; rather fear him that can kill the body and the soul.The spirit of life is not the soul.
Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the ***Spirit of life from God*** entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
THE BREATH OF LIFE.Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
****and I saw the souls****
of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.We are living souls with the breath of life IN us.
It is the souls thaat will be judged.wakeup.
Wakeup,
Quote The spirit of life is not the soul. I don't think it is as I believe that is the spirit that returns to God, Ecclesiastes 12:7, at the time a man's soul departs from his body, Genesis 35:18, and descends to the Grave, Psalm 89:48.
Genesis 35:18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
Psalm 89:48
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death?
shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.Ecclesiastes 12:7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Quote We are living souls with the breath of life IN us.
It is the souls that will be judged.In Revelations 11:11 the life giving breath returned to their bodies and they once more became living souls and then ascended to the heavens.
Revelations 20:40 is only part of the story. An earlier part goes:
Revelation 6:9-11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Here you have the souls of certain dead that are under the altar. These bodiless souls are given white robes and hold a conversation with one they call lord. Given what is written in Revelations 11:11 and Genesis 2:7 it seems reasonable that they returned to their bodies when God reformed the later and the breath returned to them.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,20:21) Wakeup, Quote The spirit of life is not the soul. I don't think it is as I believe that is the spirit that returns to God, Ecclesiastes 12:7, at the time a man's soul departs from his body, Genesis 35:18, and descends to the Grave, Psalm 89:48.
Genesis 35:18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
Psalm 89:48
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death?
shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.Ecclesiastes 12:7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Quote We are living souls with the breath of life IN us.
It is the souls that will be judged.In Revelations 11:11 the life giving breath returned to their bodies and they once more became living souls and then ascended to the heavens.
Revelations 20:40 is only part of the story. An earlier part goes:
Revelation 6:9-11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Here you have the souls of certain dead that are under the altar. These bodiless souls are given white robes and hold a conversation with one they call lord. Given what is written in Revelations 11:11 and Genesis 2:7 it seems reasonable that they returned to their bodies when God reformed the later and the breath returned to them.
So what is your final analysis?wakeup.
Wakeup,
When breath meats flesh the flesh comes alive.
When breath meats flesh the soul is either first created or returns depending on what God's by his word declares.
When breath departs to return to God the soul also departs and is placed in the Grave by God as the body is placed in its burial ground.
The soul without the body is the essential person but deprived of certain attributes given to it by the body.My conclusion is that your soul is the heart of who you are.
Note: I am not clear on the attributed the soul has or those the body adds to the whole. Memory seems to be one the body adds in the OT but not in the NT.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2013,04:35) Wakeup, When breath meats flesh the flesh comes alive.
When breath meats flesh the soul is either first created or returns depending on what God's by his word declares.
When breath departs to return to God the soul also departs and is placed in the Grave by God as the body is placed in its burial ground.
The soul without the body is the essential person but deprived of certain attributes given to it by the body.My conclusion is that your soul is the heart of who you are.
Note: I am not clear on the attributed the soul has or those the body adds to the whole. Memory seems to be one the body adds in the OT but not in the NT.
Kerwin.The breath of life is what it says it is.
It comes from God and it goes back to God.
Animals have them too.
The soul is the essence of the persons life.
That; will be judged.
The soul is spirit,not flesh.wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2013,21:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,04:52)
Still adding that word “IN” into John 1:14, huh?
Mike,That argument is irrational as John 1:14 does not tell how the word was made flesh.
It's not even close to “irrational”, Kerwin.Does John 1:14 say the Word BECAME flesh? Or that the Word CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS ALREADY flesh?
John wrote the former. You guys ALTER the scripture so that it teaches the latter.
See if the following two mean the same thing, or if you can spot the difference:
1. The Holy Spirit BECAME flesh.
2. The Holy Spirit CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS ALREADY flesh.
There is a clear difference in those two statements, Kerwin. But for the sake of your unscriptural doctrine, you pretend like they both say the same exact thing.
You are wrong. And until you and Gene can offer an explanation of John 1:14 that DOESN'T rely on you ALTERING the text, your thoughts on the matter are of no importance to anyone seeking scriptural TRUTH…… because TRUTH will never be found by ALTERING and TWISTING the scriptures so that they align with our own pre-conceived notions.
Now, I didn't want to change the course of your thread, which is why I didn't bother responding to Gene's post. I only commented on your post because I thought it was noteworthy that, when summarizing your understanding of what the scriptures teach, your theories only work when you ALTER John 1:14, and ADD the word “IN” into it.
So basically, to give somebody else a summary of “The Scriptures According to Kerwin”, you must CHANGE some of those very scriptures, and force them to teach what you WANT them to teach.
Like I said in the other post, I wonder what doctrine you guys would come up with if you were prohibited from ALTERING or ADDING TO the scriptures. Obviously a different doctrine, since your current one relies on you ALTERING and ADDING TO the scriptures, right?
Mike,
it is irrational since the statement “the word was made flesh” is simply a statement that an event occurred and it does not answer the question of how it was done.
The word was made flesh by placing it in Jesus.
You choose to ignore the fact that God foretold a time when he would put his word in those that believe and write it on their minds.
Jesus was the first human after the fall that God chose to do it with and the means by which he chose to do it to the rest of those that believed.
Am I to understand that according to you God did not place his word in Jesus and write it on his mind?
If John 1:14 was talking about the first instance of God placing His word in someone's heart, then that's what John 1:14 would have said. And to say that, John would have written his words the way you guys ALTER THEM to be. He would have written, “The Word came to be IN a flesh person.”
But John was NOT talking about the “in those days” that God places His word in EVERYONE'S heart – because that day STILL hasn't come. Nor does it say that God will place His word in the heart of CERTAIN PEOPLE first, and then a few more, and then a few more, etc.
Instead, it says that one man will not have to ask his brother about the word of God, because they will all have His word written in their hearts. If that day has come, then why are we on this site, discussing the word of God with our brothers? Why don't we all already have that word written on our hearts?
This is simply a case of you forcing something that hasn't yet occurred into a verse it doesn't fit – in an effort to force John into teaching that the Word came to be IN someone who was flesh. Like trying to force a puzzle piece into the wrong spot – only because you WANT it to go there. But you WANTING it to go there will never change the fact that it doesn't belong there; and your puzzle will never be quite right, because you've forced pieces to go where they don't belong.
Now, your unscriptural claim is that “the word was made flesh by placing it in Jesus.”
But “the Word was made flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son“ does not support that teaching. God's word remains spirit and truth to this very day. His spoken words never “became flesh”. They can be spirit and truth INSIDE of a flesh being – but they don't actually BECOME FLESH themselves.
Now, if the Word started off as spirit, and then BECAME flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten – it either speaks of a literal word God spoke BECOMING the flesh and blood man Jesus Christ – or it speaks of a spirit BEING who is called “the Word” becoming a flesh BEING who was called God's only begotten Son.
And when we consider that Jesus was existing in the form of God, BUT emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being, it is a no-brainer. It is, of course, the latter scenario I listed.
Mike,
Quote If John 1:14 was talking about the first instance of God placing His word in someone's heart, then that's what John 1:14 would have said. So you are dictating what John should have written as he was led by the Holy Spirit?
I doubt you meant in to come out as it did but you are invested in what you see as an explicit message where the who, why, what, and how are all nicely packaged up and given to you and not as an implicit message that does not give you all those things, even though the later are quite common in language use.
He wrote what he wrote for whatever reasons applied at that time and it is up to us to allow the Spirit and not the letter to guide us to the truth.
Quote Now, your unscriptural claim is that “the word was made flesh by placing it in Jesus.” It seems you object to the how being my paraphrase even though it seems you do not want to go so far to deny that Jesus has the word placed in him and written on his mind. At this time you have to prove your by is supported by a stronger case than my by.
Quote But John was NOT talking about the “in those days” that God places His word in EVERYONE'S heart – because that day STILL hasn't come. Nor does it say that God will place His word in the heart of CERTAIN PEOPLE first, and then a few more, and then a few more, etc. The words “follow me”, Mark 8:34, and “author and finisher of our faith”, Hebrews 12:2, seem to disagree with you.
Quote Instead, it says that one man will not have to ask his brother about the word of God, because they will all have His word written in their hearts. If that day has come, then why are we on this site, discussing the word of God with our brothers? Why don't we all already have that word written on our hearts? I will let you answer that question yourself as it is about the works of the Spirit.
Here are a couple of passages to assist you.
Hebrews 8:7-13
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 10:11-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
I answered most if not all of your essential points here and I am posting on time I should be putting elsewhere so I am ending it here.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2013,19:26) Wakeup, Quote The soul is the essence of the persons life. What do you mean by these words?
Your soul is waht you have done
in your life.
Have you been a God fearing person
or have you not.
If Christ have been introduced into your life,
What have you done with it.
If not; than what sort of a life have you been living.
Have you been a good person, or a bad person.wakeup.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
