Show me the fruit

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,13:57)

Hi Martian,

I'll give you the same challenge I gave Gene earlier today.

Tell me ONE single action you took today in behalf of furthering Jesus' teachings that you would not have been able to do if Jesus pre-existed.

Can you still follow Jesus' teaching to give to the poor if Jesus pre-existed?

Can you still preach the good news about God's Kingdom like Jesus did if Jesus pre-existed?

Your thread is about fruit. Show me ONE SINGLE GOOD FRUIT that you have ever produced that couldn't have been produced by you if Jesus pre-existed.

mike

Today I took hope that I could overcome problems in my life because I have the example of a human being just like me that did overcome the world. I can look at the scriptures that call him human and need not augment it in any way. there is not mystery to attempt to understand. there are no unanswered questions to ponder.
There is no questions that from his conception to his death he had no advantage over us in his attempt to walk with God and undergo the process of perfection. this gives me hope. this gives me a perfect example with no strings attached to muddy the water.
I know that I can be resurrected like Christ was because he is just like me.

If I believe the preexistence I must contend with just how much his preexistence (and the knowledge he brought from that prior life) effected his ability to overcome. I must question how much of his experiances effected his decision making and how I cannot have those same positive influences. Common sense would dictate that any info he had not available to us would effect the manner in which he made decisions. It would effect the criteria on which he makes decisions.
With the preexistence I must conjure up some formula to decypher in what ways Christ was human and in what ways he was some super being. Just like the Trinitarians. I am left with mystery and uncertainty. Not a good basis for unshakable faith.
Was Christ resurrection impacted in any way by his preexistence? How do you know?
Was Christ ability to resist temptation impacted by his preexistence? How do you know?
Your theory has introduced a large element of mystery in the simple gospel and raised questions about many of Christ accomplished. Hard to base unshakable faith on that.
This whole theory forces doubt on the perfection of Christ as our example. No one can say how much his so-called preexistence could have effected his performance in the plan of God. No one can even say what knowledge he brought from his preexistence into this life. No one can say when and how this super-knowledge was supposed to be imparted to him. It is all left to speculation and guesswork. It is hard to have unshakable faith based on speculation and guesswork.

September 27, 2010 at 2:54 pm#217857

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,13:50)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,03:28)

If a person does a dishonest thing is he dishonest? I have proven many times that your interpretation processes are dishonest.

PROVEN? How? Do you think I look up the words and then post DIFFERENT definitions than the one's the experts give? Wouldn't you be able to just as easily look up those same words youself?

I haven't done anything “dishonest” concerning this debate Martian. Could it be that you are honestly coming to YOUR interpretation which just happens to disagree with the interpretation that I arrived at just as honestly as you?

I can't help it that your interpretation goes against clearly written scriptures Martian. That speaks about your ability to logically understand what is written…….not about my honesty.

mike

On several occasions you have said that the manner/process in which you come to your conclusions is none of my business. In other words we are supposed to accept your opinion without question or proof. This is not only arrogant but does not lead to an honest discussion of the subject.
I have several times introduced evidence from many individual experts in the field and you will not even give them due consideration. In fact you have shown only disdain for any expert that does not agree with your theories and have made fun of them, calling them mere sinful men. You do this while at the same time spouting off about your English translation (made by mere sinful men) with no thought if the original languages or cultures indicate something else.
On several occasions I have posted principles that are universally excepted by the scientific community that deals with ancient languages and cultures. You have shown complete disdain for any scientific process of interpretation and relied on english translations and your opinion. Again that is not a fair or honest approach to Biblical interpretation.
I have several times shown clearly that an understanding of the culture in which the bible is written in paramount to understanding the intent of verse and you have shown contempt for the subject. You do this in contradiction to every known reputable language specialist's process. This is not honest.
And finally you have not been reasonable in the manner in which you see the effect a preexistence of Christ would have on his decisions and the manner in which he walked with God. You refuse to even consider that for one person to be a complete and unquestionable example for another (in how to complete the process of the plan of God) they must from conception forward be the same without any separate individual influence. (knowledge not available to both)
You have (to my knowledge) never expressed the reason why God would choose to morphe a “spirit being” into the position that a human could do.
You have never defined from scripture context what is meant by spirit being?
You have ignored parallel scriptures, context both immediate and overall, and cultural influence time and again. This is not an honest approach to Bible interpretation.

September 27, 2010 at 3:24 pm#217864

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,14:02)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,01:33)

BTW A big part of the reason I get tiles is because one of the moderators is a pre-exister.

All 3 of us moderators are “pre-existers” Martian. And none of us are trinitarians, yet you don't see WJ getting blocks.

And just so you know, I have never personally reported any of your posts or given you a block.

And you are just plain MEAN to me!

mike

Why should WJ get blocks. The same false ideas and concepts are the bull work of the preexistence theories and the Trinity. Both depend heavily on Christ being in some manner different then normal humanity. Trinitarians cannot denounce that Christ preexisted in some form because that would negate the theory of the trinity. The fact that I believe that scripture denounces it puts me at odds with both you and the trinitarians.
You and the trinitarians are kind of like China and the former Soviet Union. They can talk about their differences but when push comes to shove they are both communist states and have much in common.
As I said it is not a wonder that I get tiles with pre-existers as moderators.

Finally – I may have been too animated in some cases and not been as kind as I could have in the discussion but I believe the same could be said of you. The fact that I call your process of interpretation dishonest is the fruit of forum debates. If we all agreed on the same process of interpretation we would all come to the same conclusions or there would be no proofs at all, everything would just be opinion. In fact as I have posted on many occasions, until two debators agree on a process/principles under which the bible will be interpreted everything said will just be opinion. I have posted my principles many times and have asked for others to do the same. I have offered to discuss any and all of mine to make compromises. Is that being mean?
You have constantly trolled the forum trying to bait me into debate with you, when I have clearly stated that I saw no good fruit in it.
You have hijacked threads to trying to continue a debate I left and then judged my motives for leaving the debate calling me a coward and so on. You can do this, who is going to give a moderator a tile?
I have attempted to back out of a debate that has shown no good fruit but led to heated arguments contrary to the principles of unity of the Spirit. You on the other hand have tried on several occasions to drag me back into the debate. Your preoccupation with proving your doctrine has led you to deminish Christ as our example and judge the motives of others. Ignore clear principles of interpretation and led you to attempt to bait people into continual debate. Now you tell me which is being mean and which is showing the fruits of the spirit.

September 27, 2010 at 3:39 pm#217865

Participant

martian…………Amen brother. Trinitarians AND PREEXISTENCES (ARE) ONE AND THE SAME, the both are (SEPARATIST) pushing Jesus away from our identity with him. Their dogmas contain the Spirit (intellect) of the Antichrists.

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

September 28, 2010 at 5:03 am#217940

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 27 2010,17:34)

Mike! If Martian is still being Mean to you, maybe he needs another tile….. it also shows his bad fruit……Peace Irene

Thanks for your support and kindness Irene.

peace and love,
mike

September 28, 2010 at 5:08 am#217941

Blocked

Quote (martian @ Sep. 28 2010,00:35)

None of them illiminate the theory that elephants can fly either. Does that mean they can?

Only if mixed in among the scriptures that don't eliminate the possibility that elephants could fly, there were several that clearly said they could!

mike

September 28, 2010 at 5:14 am#217942

Blocked

Quote (martian @ Sep. 28 2010,01:10)

No, no, no Martian. This is all about YOU. I want to know some ACT of kindness you performed for someone else today that you couldn't have done if Jesus pre-existed.

mike

September 28, 2010 at 5:34 am#217945

Blocked

Martian:

Quote

On several occasions you have said that the manner/process in which you come to your conclusions is none of my business.

I said it ONCE, and reaffirmed it ONCE. Let me change it. It is not important to the discussion HOW I came to my understanding. If I understand a certain scripture one way, and you have some “expert Hebrew cultural” information that sheds new light on that scripture…….then by all means, bring it up. So…….what Hebrew cultural rule makes it okay for someone who is already a human being to be made into a human being?

Martian:

Quote

In other words we are supposed to accept your opinion without question or proof.

I'm just showing you scriptures man. Whether you choose to let your wishes take precedent over the actual words of God is up to you.

Martian:

Quote

I have several times introduced evidence from many individual experts in the field and you will not even give them due consideration.

And would you like to read a bunch of info from my “experts” that are all over the web? I could fill your reading card for years with all the “experts” who agree with me that Jesus pre-existed. Let me know when you find an “expert” who can explain to me how someone who already is a human being can be made into one, okay?

Martian:

Quote

And finally you have not been reasonable in the manner in which you see the effect a preexistence of Christ would have on his decisions and the manner in which he walked with God.

Poppycock Martian. Unlike you, I don't decide which scriptures I will believe and which ones I will ignore based on my personal wishes.

You should leave your personal feelings about it at the door, and read the scriptures from an unbiased point of view.

mike

September 28, 2010 at 6:32 pm#217980

Participant

Mike,
I did not read your posts and have no intention of doing so. Honest Bible discussion is a loss with you. I have nothing more to say to you. In fact since all of the moderators are cultists on this site, I may leave altogether.
Have your kingdom. It will be short enough.

September 29, 2010 at 1:47 am#218019

Baker

Participant

Quote (martian @ Sep. 29 2010,05:32)

Mike this deserves another tile if He does not leave. If he does good riddance……… no loss….. cults? boy oh boy, to think that staying Home from any organized religion is a cult….how wrong can one get….Peace Irene

September 29, 2010 at 2:46 am#218025

Blocked

On the contrary Irene, Martian's post deserves a pat on the back, not a tile.

By his failure to respond to solid points, he has by default admitted that he can't.

He will not ever be able to explain how someone who already was a human being can be made into one, and so his ONLY defense is to run and hide from the question.

He will NEVER be able to tell us about some “ACT OF KINDNESS” that he perfomed that he wouldn't have been able to perform if Jesus pre-existed, and so he will run and hide.

And he will never be able to tell us who the “Word” – who was made flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten son – was if it wasn't Jesus. So he will run and hide.

So even if he leaves HN and surrounds himself with nothing but non-preexisters, those three little “bugs” we've put in his ear will always be nagging at him. Who knows, maybe he'll someday rethink his doctine.

peace and love,
mike

September 30, 2010 at 2:18 am#218165

Participant

MIke………..No where does it say Jesus who already was a Human being was made into a human being, that is you forcing of the text to support you dogmas. John Said whosoever Says Jesus came not in the FLESH is a Antichrist and this is the SPIRIT (INTELLECT) of the Antichrist. What Spirit is that?, a Spirit (intellect) the separates us from our Exact identity with Jesus as a Human Being and preexistences as well as Trinitarians are both doing that.

peace and love…………………………….gene

September 30, 2010 at 2:25 am#218166

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 30 2010,13:18)

MIke………..No where does it say Jesus who already was a Human being was made into a human being,

That's what I've been trying to tell you for a long time now Gene.

It DOESN'T say that anywhere. What it DOES say is that Jesus was in the form of God (as a NON-human being) and THEN was made into a human being.

mike

September 30, 2010 at 2:50 am#218175

Participant

Mike ……..Your mixing up NATURE with FORM, the Nature of GOD is in anyone who has GOD Spirit (IN) them. All Who have (ARE) EXISTING With the NATURE of GOD (IN) them and They are Sons of GOD NOW. I could say the same about Paul or John or Peter or any Saint they all were and are existing with the Nature of GOD. How doe that supposed to separate Jesus from Us.

Please show where any scripture says Jesus as a Non Human Being was in the FORM or Nature of GOD. Shopw specific scriptures to back yopu up not some text you can force to try to mean that. When it is not even the context of what Pau was talking about in the first place. Paul was not talking about any preexistence of Jesus other then His earth existence. That was the preexistence Paul was talking about it was Jesus' earthly existence not before that time as you assume.

peace and love……………….gene

September 30, 2010 at 5:41 am#218194

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 30 2010,13:50)

peace and love……………….gene

Hi Gene,

Are you saying that Jesus stripped himself
of the form of God when he became a servant?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 1, 2010 at 1:59 am#218302

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 30 2010,13:50)

All Who have (ARE) EXISTING With the NATURE of GOD (IN) them and They are Sons of GOD NOW. I could say the same about Paul or John or Peter or any Saint they all were and are existing with the Nature of GOD. How doe that supposed to separate Jesus from Us.

Hi Gene,

Could you have said that Paul or John or Peter or any “saint” who now exists with the nature of God in them could EMPTY THEMSELVES AND BE MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING?

And I'm still waiting for one act of kindness you've ever performed or one teaching of Jesus that you've ever followed in your entire lifetime that couldn't have been done if Jesus pre-existed.

peace and love,
mike

October 1, 2010 at 1:56 pm#218337

Participant

Mike…………Jesus did not strip himself of the Spirit of GOD or the Nature of GOD that should be obvious to all, He came into existence Just as we did and nothing more and He recieved the Holy Spirit at the Jordan River and there became a Son of GOD. He though being or (existing) with the Nature of GOD took on the nature of a Servant and did not try rob glory from God or try to be equal with GOD just because he had that Nature in him but took on the nature of a man and became humble to God as a Servant even to the point of death. Now you and the rest can twist that up as much as you want to but the context of what Paul was saying backs that up completely. It is only you and other preexistences who are grabbing straws out of every where you can to force your false teachings of Christs Preexistence , like i said Trinitarians and Preexistences are both one and the same, rather you admit it or not, it doesn't change the truth.

peace and love………………………………gene

October 2, 2010 at 1:52 am#218366

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 30 2010,16:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 30 2010,13:50)

peace and love……………….gene

Hi Gene,

Are you saying that Jesus stripped himself
of the form of God when he became a servant?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Gene,

You have not answered my question?

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 5, 2010 at 3:15 am#218751

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2010,00:56)

He came into existence Just as we did and nothing more and He recieved the Holy Spirit at the Jordan River and there became a Son of GOD. He though being or (existing) with the Nature of GOD took on the nature of a Servant and did not try rob glory from God or try to be equal with GOD just because he had that Nature in him but took on the nature of a man

Hi Gene,

First of all, it doesn't say Jesus “took on the nature of a man” like you assert.

It says “and WAS MADE in the likeness of a human being”.

You said:

Quote

Now you and the rest can twist that up as much as you want to but the context of what Paul was saying backs that up completely. It is only you and other preexistences who are grabbing straws out of every where you can to force your false teachings of Christs Preexistence

But I am not the one “twisting”, “grabbing straws” or “forcing scripture” Gene……..you are. I have showed you what the scripture CLEARLY says, and despite MANY tedious replies from you, not once have you tried to explain how someone who already is a human being can be made in the likeness of a human being.

Nor have you attempted to tell us who “the Word” who became flesh was. Who else but Jesus became flesh, dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten Son?

peace and love,
mike

October 7, 2010 at 12:36 pm#219027