Show me the fruit

[martian]

Now that I have dealt with the sidetrack of silliness, let's get back to the subject of the thread.
What does your teaching produce in the heart of a man. After all it is with the heart that we believe. So what does the heart learn from your doctrine that enables him to grow in God or progross along the path Jesus followed.

[terraricca]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 24 2010,16:12)

Now that I have dealt with the sidetrack of silliness, let's get back to the subject of the thread. What does your teaching produce in the heart of a man. After all it is with the heart that we believe. So what does the heart learn from your doctrine that enables him to grow in God or progross along the path Jesus followed.

martian

anyone who think that he is the one God uses to convert people is a fool.

we can watering the plant ,plant a seeds, but we can never make it grow.

so if we can not make it grow we also cannot produce fruit from it,

this means that unless you are ignited by God in your hearth you are dead as to the truth of God.

this does not mean that you can not do things to allow God to ignite your hearth,we all can but we all do not look for it for some reason or another.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 24 2010,09:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,11:57) Quote (martian @ Sep. 21 2010,02:25) As far as us not understanding every reason why God does a thing, that is true. However, God is just and fair as you have pointed out. He would not send an example and command us to follow in like manner then give that example knowledge or experiences (not available to us) that impact the way he did things. That would not be fair or just. Hi Martian, But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian.  Just like it used to be my flawed, sinful man's opinion that God didn't treat Uzzah with fairness and justness.  I have since come to realize that what might seem unfair or unjust to us is absolutely the MOST fair and just way it could have been done.  Why?  Because that's the way our God did it. We can't presume to question God's justness by comparing it to what we might think is fair, right?  If you could keep yourself from totally denying the fact that Jesus could have pre-existed, just because it doesn't line up with YOUR view of what is fair – just for a moment – you might be able to read all the scriptures that make it clear he DID pre-exist without your self-inflicted blindness getting in the way. mike You say- But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian. Reply- Since you have stayed in hiding about your methods used to come to your conclusions, everything you have ever posted is just the opinion of a flawed sinful man. (A dishonest one too)

Hi Martian,

You said:

Quote

Since you have stayed in hiding about your methods used to come to your conclusions, everything you have ever posted is just the opinion of a flawed sinful man. (A dishonest one too)

Did you even read my post that's quoted above?  Of course I have a flawed, sinful, mere human mind…..just like you.  So what to do?  Believe our sinful minds, or believe scripture?

You have called me “dishonest” many times since we started discussing Jesus' preexistence.  Can you produce a post in which I was “dishonest” with you?  Making false claims like these not only shows the kind of person you are, but also proves it is you who is “dishonest” by lying about another.  Oh, and it is also the kind of behavior that gets you those pretty little “blocks” up by your name.

Now, about the fluff you posted about Phil 2, none of what you say changes the fact that Jesus was in one form, then emptied himself, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.  And verse 8 only confirms it by saying, in effect, “And after he WAS made as a man, he humbled himself even futher…….”

Are you blinded by the god of this world, Martian?  Can't you see that it doesn't matter if you ran all the words together as one REALLY LONG statement that Paul made?  The words STILL say he was existing in the form of God, and after emptying himself was made in the likeness of a human being.  And after becoming a human being, he humbled himself as far as death on a stake.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 24 2010,09:12)

Now that I have dealt with the sidetrack of silliness, let's get back to the subject of the thread. What does your teaching produce in the heart of a man. After all it is with the heart that we believe. So what does the heart learn from your doctrine that enables him to grow in God or progross along the path Jesus followed.

This is why I called your thread “silly” before. Jesus pre-existing bears the same exact fruit of Jesus not pre-existing.

We are to follow his teachings and examples. We can do that exactly the same whether or not he pre-existed.

You and Gene have it backwards Martian. You think the scriptures imply that Jesus was exactly like us. In fact, they teach that we can someday be exactly like him.

mike

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2010,10:47)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 24 2010,09:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,11:57) Quote (martian @ Sep. 21 2010,02:25) As far as us not understanding every reason why God does a thing, that is true. However, God is just and fair as you have pointed out. He would not send an example and command us to follow in like manner then give that example knowledge or experiences (not available to us) that impact the way he did things. That would not be fair or just. Hi Martian, But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian.  Just like it used to be my flawed, sinful man's opinion that God didn't treat Uzzah with fairness and justness.  I have since come to realize that what might seem unfair or unjust to us is absolutely the MOST fair and just way it could have been done.  Why?  Because that's the way our God did it. We can't presume to question God's justness by comparing it to what we might think is fair, right?  If you could keep yourself from totally denying the fact that Jesus could have pre-existed, just because it doesn't line up with YOUR view of what is fair – just for a moment – you might be able to read all the scriptures that make it clear he DID pre-exist without your self-inflicted blindness getting in the way. mike You say- But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian. Reply- Since you have stayed in hiding about your methods used to come to your conclusions, everything you have ever posted is just the opinion of a flawed sinful man. (A dishonest one too) Hi Martian, You said: Quote Since you have stayed in hiding about your methods used to come to your conclusions, everything you have ever posted is just the opinion of a flawed sinful man. (A dishonest one too) Did you even read my post that's quoted above?  Of course I have a flawed, sinful, mere human mind…..just like you.  So what to do?  Believe our sinful minds, or believe scripture? You have called me “dishonest” many times since we started discussing Jesus' preexistence.  Can you produce a post in which I was “dishonest” with you?  Making false claims like these not only shows the kind of person you are, but also proves it is you who is “dishonest” by lying about another.  Oh, and it is also the kind of behavior that gets you those pretty little “blocks” up by your name. Now, about the fluff you posted about Phil 2, none of what you say changes the fact that Jesus was in one form, then emptied himself, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.  And verse 8 only confirms it by saying, in effect, “And after he WAS made as a man, he humbled himself even futher…….” Are you blinded by the god of this world, Martian?  Can't you see that it doesn't matter if you ran all the words together as one REALLY LONG statement that Paul made?  The words STILL say he was existing in the form of God, and after emptying himself was made in the likeness of a human being.  And after becoming a human being, he humbled himself as far as death on a stake. mike

You continually ignore the context. This process is dishonest. It says have the same attitude in us as Christ had. In your interpretation thee is no attitude to follow. How can we ever have the attitude that he had when his is based on emptying ourselves of being some supernatural “spirit-being” and becoming a man. There is no attitude that we can follow. Does God publish nonsense that we cannot possible do? At the least you have proved that your doctrine bears no positive fruit. It clouds the issues and produces confusion. (along with ignoring scripture)

As I have stated before one of the primary meaning of image in Genesis is ‘FORM”. Therefore it is simple saying Jesus was like Adam before the fall. He had full dominion and authority as a son of God. He never gave up that position as Adam did through sin. He could have ruled by force and been in the right to do so, however he laid down/empties himself of his position as King and becomes a servant. So appearing like any other man and made (coming into existence) in the likeness of other men, he went the farther step (not done by Adam or any other man) of being obedient unto death on a cross.

There is an attitude we can do because it is not based on Christ having any advantage over us in being or knowledge. My interpretation gives hope because it shows that a normal man can walk in obedience to the will of God. If it is possible for the man Jesus to do it then it is possible for us to do it too.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2010,10:47)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 24 2010,09:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,11:57) Quote (martian @ Sep. 21 2010,02:25) As far as us not understanding every reason why God does a thing, that is true. However, God is just and fair as you have pointed out. He would not send an example and command us to follow in like manner then give that example knowledge or experiences (not available to us) that impact the way he did things. That would not be fair or just. Hi Martian, But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian.  Just like it used to be my flawed, sinful man's opinion that God didn't treat Uzzah with fairness and justness.  I have since come to realize that what might seem unfair or unjust to us is absolutely the MOST fair and just way it could have been done.  Why?  Because that's the way our God did it. We can't presume to question God's justness by comparing it to what we might think is fair, right?  If you could keep yourself from totally denying the fact that Jesus could have pre-existed, just because it doesn't line up with YOUR view of what is fair – just for a moment – you might be able to read all the scriptures that make it clear he DID pre-exist without your self-inflicted blindness getting in the way. mike You say- But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian. Reply- Since you have stayed in hiding about your methods used to come to your conclusions, everything you have ever posted is just the opinion of a flawed sinful man. (A dishonest one too) Hi Martian, You said: Quote Since you have stayed in hiding about your methods used to come to your conclusions, everything you have ever posted is just the opinion of a flawed sinful man. (A dishonest one too) Did you even read my post that's quoted above?  Of course I have a flawed, sinful, mere human mind…..just like you.  So what to do?  Believe our sinful minds, or believe scripture? You have called me “dishonest” many times since we started discussing Jesus' preexistence.  Can you produce a post in which I was “dishonest” with you?  Making false claims like these not only shows the kind of person you are, but also proves it is you who is “dishonest” by lying about another.  Oh, and it is also the kind of behavior that gets you those pretty little “blocks” up by your name. Now, about the fluff you posted about Phil 2, none of what you say changes the fact that Jesus was in one form, then emptied himself, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.  And verse 8 only confirms it by saying, in effect, “And after he WAS made as a man, he humbled himself even futher…….” Are you blinded by the god of this world, Martian?  Can't you see that it doesn't matter if you ran all the words together as one REALLY LONG statement that Paul made?  The words STILL say he was existing in the form of God, and after emptying himself was made in the likeness of a human being.  And after becoming a human being, he humbled himself as far as death on a stake. mike

Reply-
You are right. I should not make it personal. I should not say that YOU are dishonest. However your process of interpretation is very dishonest with scripture.
BTW A big part of the reason I get tiles is because one of the moderators is a pre-exister.

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………….The point you seem to miss is that thinking Jesus is (NOT) Exactly like were are is against GODS Work (IN) HUMANITY. GOD was not dealing with a preexisting beings , but with a 100% Pure Human being who Had (NO) advantage over us except GOD was With HIM and GODS Work was performed (IN) Him to perfect HIM and Turn him into His Son and raise him form the dead and give him eternal life. This Process performed by GOD in the MAN Jesus is (EXACTLY THE SAME AS HE CAN PERFORM IN US). You Trinitarians and Preexistence change that picture of what GOD the FATHER does (IN) Humanity to what GOD does to preexisting Beings who in truth are not (exactly) like we are. You separate Jesus from our Identity and not only that but you are denying GODS work in Humanity.

Tell us this Mike why does scripture say “HE SHALL (future tense) BE A SON UNTO ME AND I SHALL (future) BE A FATHER TO HIM”. ALL FUTURE TENSE WORDING , this in itself destroys you false doctrine of preexistences. Why would GOD say Shall or Will if he already was his son, And Why does it say (THIS DAY) i have begotten you, when according to your false teaching of preexistences he all ready was a son of GOD. You view completely distorts the the truth of God working in a ordinary human being perfecting him and saving him and giving him eternal life, according to you he already had all that , so according to you view GOD was running a scam and playing a trick on us by using a already eternal existing being disguised as a Human being.

Mike don't be decieved trinitarians and Preexistences are both the same, except one believes Jesus is a GOD while the other believes Jesus is a kind of supper being or demigod. But be assured they both Have there origins in the false Gnostic teaching of the GREEKS and ROMANS. They both are Antichrists and they both deny GODS Work in Humanity, they both SEPARATE JESUS FROM OUR EXACT IDENTITY, and all your word games does not change that. You obscure GODS work in his human creation, Jesus was 100% Human nothing more and nothing Less. He is our example of how to have a relationship with GOD because He is EXACTLY in EVERY WAY ONE OF US HUMANS.

peace and love…………………………………..gene

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2010,10:51)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 24 2010,09:12) Now that I have dealt with the sidetrack of silliness, let's get back to the subject of the thread. What does your teaching produce in the heart of a man. After all it is with the heart that we believe. So what does the heart learn from your doctrine that enables him to grow in God or progross along the path Jesus followed. This is why I called your thread “silly” before.  Jesus pre-existing bears the same exact fruit of Jesus not pre-existing. We are to follow his teachings and examples.  We can do that exactly the same whether or not he pre-existed. You and Gene have it backwards Martian.  You think the scriptures imply that Jesus was exactly like us.  In fact, they teach that we can someday be exactly like him. mike

Actually I do not use implication. My conclusions come from very clear unquestioned scripture. 95 times in scripture Christ is called “son of man” As you stated man in these cases is always anthropos and can only mean human being. Christ cannot be human and be preexistent. You can say he is but it is like saying something that is white is also black. It is a nonsensical statement.
A preexistent Christ does not bear the same fruit as a non-preexistent Christ. A non-preexistent Christ shows by example the process that we are to follow to become like him and fulfill the plan of God for us. A preexistent Christ shows a process that is marked by decisions based on knowledge that is not available to us and therefore cannot be duplicated by us.
Your doctrine produces doubt on the criteria and information that Christ had to base his decisions upon. It is those decisions that produced his character and enabled him to work with God throughout the perfecting process.
My doctrine leaves no doubt. It is simple. Christ had no more information from which to base his decisions then we have available to us. therefore we can follow the same path based on the same criteria. We can have complete hope and assurance that it is possible because we saw our brother do it with no more info then we can have.

And finally you say this—-
You and Gene have it backwards Martian. You think the scriptures imply that Jesus was exactly like us. In fact, they teach that we can someday be exactly like him.

Response –
I do not have to imply that Christ is like us. Scripture clearly calls him Anthropos just like us. He is not called an augmented anthropos with a built in knowledge from a prior life in heaven. Even though it is your wish that it say so.
You say you believe that we can someday be like him? Does that mean that at some point in our earthly lives God will reveal to us that we all preexisted and give us knowledge from that time that will influence our decision making and perfecting process?
The only way we can truly be like him is to go through the same process of perfecting that he went through. To do this we must make decisions, which lead to character, based on the same information and knowledge as Christ did.
Now if there is any silliness being posted it is coming from you. The same silliness we have to endure from the Trinitarians that say Jesus is man but is also different then man. The augment Christ just like you do. You make him non-human.
Now I have answered your post clearly and have nothing more to say on the subject. Thank you for proving my point that your doctrine does not produce the same good fruit as mine. Thank you for showing the contradictions within your own doctrine.

[GeneBalthrop]

martian………..Amen Brother. They preach a different Christ, one who is not like us and who is of different origins then us. They are beyond a doubt Antichrists and preach the doctrines of Antichrist. Their teachings separates our Identity with Christ Jesus the MAN who is OUR BROTHER. Not only that but they destory the works of GOD in Human kind by separating Jesus from our likeness.

peace and love to you brother……………………………………..gene

[martian]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 25 2010,03:01)

martian………..Amen Brother. They preach a different Christ, one who is not like us and who is of different origins then us. They are beyond a doubt Antichrists and preach the doctrines of Antichrist. Their teachings separates our Identity with Christ Jesus the MAN who is OUR BROTHER. Not only that but they destory the works of GOD in Human kind by separating Jesus from our likeness. peace and love to you brother……………………………………..gene

I will not go as far as to say they are antichrist but their doctrine certainly works against Christ and could be called that.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2010,10:47)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 24 2010,09:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,11:57) Quote (martian @ Sep. 21 2010,02:25) As far as us not understanding every reason why God does a thing, that is true. However, God is just and fair as you have pointed out. He would not send an example and command us to follow in like manner then give that example knowledge or experiences (not available to us) that impact the way he did things. That would not be fair or just. Hi Martian, But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian.  Just like it used to be my flawed, sinful man's opinion that God didn't treat Uzzah with fairness and justness.  I have since come to realize that what might seem unfair or unjust to us is absolutely the MOST fair and just way it could have been done.  Why?  Because that's the way our God did it. We can't presume to question God's justness by comparing it to what we might think is fair, right?  If you could keep yourself from totally denying the fact that Jesus could have pre-existed, just because it doesn't line up with YOUR view of what is fair – just for a moment – you might be able to read all the scriptures that make it clear he DID pre-exist without your self-inflicted blindness getting in the way. mike You say- But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian. Reply- Since you have stayed in hiding about your methods used to come to your conclusions, everything you have ever posted is just the opinion of a flawed sinful man. (A dishonest one too) Hi Martian, You said: Quote Since you have stayed in hiding about your methods used to come to your conclusions, everything you have ever posted is just the opinion of a flawed sinful man. (A dishonest one too) Did you even read my post that's quoted above?  Of course I have a flawed, sinful, mere human mind…..just like you.  So what to do?  Believe our sinful minds, or believe scripture? You have called me “dishonest” many times since we started discussing Jesus' preexistence.  Can you produce a post in which I was “dishonest” with you?  Making false claims like these not only shows the kind of person you are, but also proves it is you who is “dishonest” by lying about another.  Oh, and it is also the kind of behavior that gets you those pretty little “blocks” up by your name. Now, about the fluff you posted about Phil 2, none of what you say changes the fact that Jesus was in one form, then emptied himself, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.  And verse 8 only confirms it by saying, in effect, “And after he WAS made as a man, he humbled himself even futher…….” Are you blinded by the god of this world, Martian?  Can't you see that it doesn't matter if you ran all the words together as one REALLY LONG statement that Paul made?  The words STILL say he was existing in the form of God, and after emptying himself was made in the likeness of a human being.  And after becoming a human being, he humbled himself as far as death on a stake. mike

You say-
You have called me “dishonest” many times since we started discussing Jesus' preexistence. Can you produce a post in which I was “dishonest” with you? Making false claims like these not only shows the kind of person you are, but also proves it is you who is “dishonest” by lying about another.

Reply-
If a person does a dishonest thing is he dishonest? I have proven many times that your interpretation processes are dishonest. Instead of you repenting of such actions and learning to interpret honestly you make excuses and hide your process. This action of hiding your interpretation process in itself implies something secret and dishonest. Why else do you hide how you come to your conclusions? Who is the dishonest one, the one who shows his process of interpretation and proves his points through research and seeks the evidence produced by experts in the field or one that purposely hides his processes in secret and then insists his conclusions are correct? As I have said many times an honest researcher needs not hide his work or process. Every post that you have done that I have read includes and is a product of these dishonest practices. I could not care less if you are dishonest with me personally. I do, however, care when you misrepresent the character of God by teaching that he would give us an example that we cannot possibly follow.
You use no principles by which to secure clear correct understandings of scripture and tell others it is none of our business how you come to your conclusions. How can you possibly believe this constitutes an honest approach to Bible discussion?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,03:28)

If a person does a dishonest thing is he dishonest? I have proven many times that your interpretation processes are dishonest.

PROVEN?  How?  Do you think I look up the words and then post DIFFERENT definitions than the one's the experts give?  Wouldn't you be able to just as easily look up those same words youself?

I haven't done anything “dishonest” concerning this debate Martian.  Could it be that you are honestly coming to YOUR interpretation which just happens to disagree with the interpretation that I arrived at just as honestly as you?

I can't help it that your interpretation goes against clearly written scriptures Martian.  That speaks about your ability to logically understand what is written…….not about my honesty.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Hi Martian,

I'll give you the same challenge I gave Gene earlier today.  

Tell me ONE single action you took today in behalf of furthering Jesus' teachings that you would not have been able to do if Jesus pre-existed.

Can you still follow Jesus' teaching to give to the poor if Jesus pre-existed?

Can you still preach the good news about God's Kingdom like Jesus did if Jesus pre-existed?

Your thread is about fruit.  Show me ONE SINGLE GOOD FRUIT that you have ever produced that couldn't have been produced by you if Jesus pre-existed.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,01:29)

Therefore it is simple saying Jesus was like Adam before the fall.

Except then it says, “and he was made in the likeness of a human being”.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,01:33)

BTW A big part of the reason I get tiles is because one of the moderators is a pre-exister.

All 3 of us moderators are “pre-existers” Martian. And none of us are trinitarians, yet you don't see WJ getting blocks.

And just so you know, I have never personally reported any of your posts or given you a block.

And you are just plain MEAN to me!

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,02:03)

Actually I do not use implication. My conclusions come from very clear unquestioned scripture.

Well, you can't just use the scriptures you want to Martian. I've showed you a couple “very clear unquestioned scriptures” during this debate, but you don't want to include them in your “cannon”.

You mention the Son of Man scriptures. So what? Jesus IS the Son of Man. In fact, I am on board with every single scripture you guys post. It's just that NONE of them eliminate the possibility that Jesus pre-existed.

mike

[Baker]

mean no disrespect but your posts show a lack of education in any form of proper interpretation principles. I am sorry that you have not had the opportunity to learn such things.

Martian! This is what you said to Georg, you find that not an attack on Georg's character? Maybe your thinking is bogus to say the least, I find it an insult……. and a disrespect for Georg…….Any time you say something about someone about themselves that is not positive, makes it an insult…..and not necessary to say……..you are showing bad fruit……….Irene

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,14:02)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,01:33) BTW A big part of the reason I get tiles is because one of the moderators is a pre-exister. All 3 of us moderators are “pre-existers” Martian.  And none of us are trinitarians, yet you don't see WJ getting blocks.   And just so you know, I have never personally reported any of your posts or given you a block. And you are just plain MEAN to me! mike

Mike! If Martian is still being Mean to you, maybe he needs another tile….. it also shows his bad fruit……Peace Irene

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,14:11)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,02:03) Actually I do not use implication. My conclusions come from very clear unquestioned scripture. Well, you can't just use the scriptures you want to Martian.  I've showed you a couple “very clear unquestioned scriptures” during this debate, but you don't want to include them in your “cannon”. You mention the Son of Man scriptures.  So what?  Jesus IS the Son of Man.  In fact, I am on board with every single scripture you guys post.  It's just that NONE of them eliminate the possibility that Jesus pre-existed. mike

None of them illiminate the theory that elephants can fly either. Does that mean they can?

[martian]

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 27 2010,17:30)

mean no disrespect but your posts show a lack of education in any form of proper interpretation principles. I am sorry that you have not had the opportunity to learn such things. Martian!  This is what you said to Georg, you find that not an attack on Georg's character?  Maybe your thinking is bogus to say the least, I find it an insult……. and a disrespect for Georg…….Any time you say something about someone about themselves that is not positive, makes it an insult…..and not necessary to say……..you are showing bad fruit……….Irene

On another thread you mentioned that you knew how to read/write German. You indicated that I do not. should I take that as an insult?
I simply mentioned that you have not trained in principles of interpretation. Have you studied manuscripts and translations. Have you taken courses on hermeneutics? Have you studied Hebrew culture and language. Have you even learned how to use the reference works on these subjects?
Thee is no insult in saying someone is not educated on certain matters. I appreciate that you feel a need to defend your husband but I think you have misunderstood my post.

[Author]

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