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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,21:27) Quote (martian @ Sep. 08 2010,02:06) I never said Jesus did not have knowledge that we do not have. I said he could not have knowledge not available to us. Big difference.
It's not a difference at all. All of Jesus' knowledge came from God in one way or another, right?Whether Jesus existed in heaven and saw things first hand or God just “popped” the images of what heaven was like and what was to come doesn't really matter, does it?
If God wanted to “Zerox” Jesus' exact knowledge and “pop”it into your brain, He could. So ALL knowledge is available to ALL who God wills to share it with……WHETHER JESUS PRE-EXISTED OR NOT.
So what's the big deal? You would rather ignore scripture and stick with your own WISHES on a subject that all comes down to a moot point in the end anyway?
mike
hi mikeMt 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Mt 11:26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasurePierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,14:27) Quote (martian @ Sep. 08 2010,02:06) I never said Jesus did not have knowledge that we do not have. I said he could not have knowledge not available to us. Big difference.
It's not a difference at all. All of Jesus' knowledge came from God in one way or another, right?Whether Jesus existed in heaven and saw things first hand or God just “popped” the images of what heaven was like and what was to come doesn't really matter, does it?
If God wanted to “Zerox” Jesus' exact knowledge and “pop”it into your brain, He could. So ALL knowledge is available to ALL who God wills to share it with……WHETHER JESUS PRE-EXISTED OR NOT.
So what's the big deal? You would rather ignore scripture and stick with your own WISHES on a subject that all comes down to a moot point in the end anyway?
mike
This is the only answer on this subject I will answer. I would appreciate it is you would stop hijacking my threads for your nonsense. This thread is about fruit. A subject you obviously ignore.Any one with any common sense will know that first hand knowledge is going to be superior then something told to us (even by God) If I tell you that the stove is hot you might believe it but if you touch it the meaning becomes very painfully clear. I dare say the latter lesson would cause you to make stronger decisions about touching the stove then just being told. (You must not have kids to not realize this)
In a pre-existence there will be no denying what God tells you or shows you. We, in the natural realm, have a much more difficult time hearing clearly from God. For Christ to be an exact example that we can follow he must have had to battle through the same difficulties that we do to hear correctly from God. He learned obedience and was perfected by what he suffered.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,14:20) Quote (martian @ Sep. 08 2010,02:06) Phil 2? I will not debate on the subject of scripture since you refuse to agree to any honest principles for interpretation. Are at the very least hide in a dark corner with the way you come to conclusions and say it is none of my business. There is no fruit in that. Just as their is no fruit in your conclusions
I didn't think so. In fact, I bet you peeked and saw that we are to a point of “no wiggle room”, so you decided to stay in hiding. That's okay, I'll bring it to you. This is the last post in the Phil 2 thread:Hey Gene! barley! Martian! Shimmer! Marty! Where are all of you guys? Isn't someone going to attempt to answer this point?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,15:42) Simply when He raised Lazarus from the dead He could have allowed People to think He did it, instead of GOD the Father.
Okay Gene,Let's say the raising of Lazarus IS the point in Jesus' life when he could have been “in the nature of God”.
After God raised Lazarus through Jesus and people thought of Jesus as having “the form of God”, in what sense was Jesus then “MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING”?
Do you see it Gene? If he WAS a HUMAN BEING ALREADY, how is it that he “WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING”?
Please actually answer my question Gene. It basically asks how Jesus can be made into a human when he already was one?
It is a DIRECT question. Either give me a DIRECT answer, or admit that you can't.
mike
Stop hijacking the thread.Quote (martian @ Sep. 10 2010,01:59) For Christ to be an exact example that we can follow he must have had to battle through the same difficulties that we do to hear correctly from God.
Could you tell me one more time why it is that Christ has to be “an EXACT example” for us to follow him?mike
Quote (martian @ Sep. 10 2010,02:01) Stop hijacking the thread.
Fair enough Martian. I'll accept YOUR defeat graciously.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2010,13:12) Quote (martian @ Sep. 10 2010,02:01) Stop hijacking the thread.
Fair enough Martian. I'll accept YOUR defeat graciously.mike
Do you really think that highly of yourself?
At least there is one thing for sure. If I ever backslide, I will have your example of biblical interpretation and honesty with scripture to live down to.
Thanks for the bad example.Quote (martian @ Sep. 11 2010,01:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2010,13:12) Quote (martian @ Sep. 10 2010,02:01) Stop hijacking the thread.
Fair enough Martian. I'll accept YOUR defeat graciously.mike
Do you really think that highly of yourself?
At least there is one thing for sure. If I ever backslide, I will have your example of biblical interpretation and honesty with scripture to live down to.
Thanks for the bad example.
Hi Martian,What do you mean?
Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,10:39) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 07 2010,08:11) Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,13:53) Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,00:19) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45) Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20) George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?
Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.Georg
You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”
The truth you say you have is the pre-0existence of Jesus. I want to know how that” truth” gives you hope?
How does it make Christ more of an example for us?
How does it show us a clear pattern that we can follow?
The pre-existence of Jesus does nothing to me, other than that it is a fact.“”” You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”””
You even quoted what I said; so why do you want to spin this into something else?
Why would you say, the pre-existence of Jesus gives me hope?
How can his pre-existence make Jesus a better example?
How can his pre-existence show you a clearer pattern to follow?
What does his pre-existence have to do with any of this? Nothing that I can see.Georg
I understand that you do not see it. That is the problem. If you believe that Jesus had any advantage over the rest of humanity due to his pre-existence then you have partially negated his being an example for us.
What hope can I gain from a creature doing anything if that creature is not like me?
I have hope in overcoming because I have an example that is just like me that overcame. If Christ is different then me I cannot use him as an exact example. It creates doubt in what I can follow him in and what I cannot.
How can I follow Christ and walk the paths that he walked if his path is determined by his pre-existence?
Your doctrine moves Christ away from us just like the Trinity does.
Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his Pre-existence. Do you agree?
If so, Then you must know that knowledge is what we base our decisions on. So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us. How can we follow that? How can we duplicate that?
Yes, Jesus knew who he was, God's son, and he knew were he came from, heaven. He was a spirit being “in” heaven, but not while he was on earth. If you call that an advantage, than yes it was, but, do you think any one else could have accomplished, what he accomplished, not sinned? had he sinned, he could not have died for ours.
He was “all” man,Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (flesh)
We are to imitate him, but God knows that we will not accomplish what Jesus did; that is why he died for us, his pre-existence has nothing to do with that.
What path are you trying to follow? you can never “BE” Christ, what is it that Jesus ask us to do?Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
That's all you have to do, I think you will find, that's hard enough.
“””Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his pre-existence. Do you agree?”””
YES
“””So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us.”””
I disagree,
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
God is not asking the impossible from us, so relax.
Georg
You contradict yourself.
“He was “all” man,” but yet you say he had knowledge we do not posses and never could from so called pre-existence. That is a contradiction.
His overcoming is supposed to be an example to us and yet you say he had some advantage in knowledge that would have influenced his ability to overcome. How do we follow that example.
You doctrine is just silly and non-sense. It defeats Christ as our example.
So if you had lived in heaven before being born on Earth and you had memories of that time, you would not be effected by that? That would not influence your decisions? Come on, show a little bit of reason here.I am not sure what you are trying to prove with Heb 2 but maybe try the context —
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
(NOTICE IT SAY IN ALL THINGS. IT DOES NOT SAY IN ALL THINGS EXCEPT PRE-EXISTENCE KNOWLEDGE)
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body.
God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being.
The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure.
How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new.Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
Why do you try to read something into scripture that is not there? Do you not ask God for his Holy Spirit to give you power to
overcome sin? on your own you will never succeed.
That is what we are to do, Jesus never sinned, even though he was tempted in all things, that “IS” how we are to imitate Jesus, but God knows we will fail many times, read this.1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light (truth), as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
God knows we are sinners, and we “will” sin.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins (ask for forgiveness), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we think, because Jesus died for our sins, and therefore don't have to ask for forgiveness, we fool our-self.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Are you trying the impossible, or just looking for an excuse not to try at all?
Georg
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 11 2010,10:23) 1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. God knows we are sinners, and we “will” sin.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins (ask for forgiveness), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we think, because Jesus died for our sins, and therefore don't have to ask for forgiveness, we fool our-self.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Are you trying the impossible, or just looking for an excuse not to try at all?
Georg
Good stuff Georg.Quote (martian @ Sep. 10 2010,01:59) Any one with any common sense will know that first hand knowledge is going to be superior then something told to us (even by God)
So were John's visions in Rev “first hand knowledge”? He SAW with his own eyes what was to come. Didn't that give John an advantage over the rest of us? He experienced knowledge first hand that we can only read about in his account of it.How now can we ever try to follow any of John's teachings since he wasn't EXACTLY LIKE US because he had knowledge we don't?
mike
MIke……..John was (exactly) like us and any other Human being as well as Jesus also. GOD can give anyone He so choses anything He desires to. that Does not make that person any better then anyone else nor makes Him any different then we are. Can't you see how screwed up your thinking is becoming? Now your reasoning that John was really not like us, Man you are out there with this MYSTERY RELIGION ideology. How many more you have to tell us about that are not “really” like we are, perhaps you are not a human being either and maybe you preexisted on some Planet somewhere in the universe right?. Tell us about it Mike if you can recall anything. I am just jabbing at you i know , but come on Mike using John is a poor at best attempt to justify you false teaching of the preexistence of Jesus right brother?
peace and love………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 13 2010,10:19) MIke……..John was (exactly) like us and any other Human being as well as Jesus also. GOD can give anyone He so choses anything He desires to. that Does not make that person any better then anyone else nor makes Him any different then we are. Can't you see how screwed up your thinking is becoming? Now your reasoning that John was really not like us, Man you are out there with this MYSTERY RELIGION ideology. How many more you have to tell us about that are not “really” like we are, perhaps you are not a human being either and maybe you preexisted on some Planet somewhere in the universe right?. Tell us about it Mike if you can recall anything. I am just jabbing at you i know , but come on Mike using John is a poor at best attempt to justify you false teaching of the preexistence of Jesus right brother? peace and love………………………………gene
Hi Gene,Maybe you misread my post. You and Martian's main ambition here seems to be to make Jesus be exactly as we are – and with no knowledge other than that which is also available to us – whether that's what scripture teaches or not.
I merely pointed out that John, like Jesus, also had knowledge not available to us on a first hand basis, so does that mean we can't follow his teachings either?
I don't even know anything about the stuff you were spouting…..it sure wasn't implied in my post.
mike
Quote (martian @ Sep. 13 2010,10:39) What's the Fruit.
Hi Martian,I think you need to reformulate your ideas 'rules for interpretation'; if you don't know this!
Jesus = fruit
John 12:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat (Jesus=74)
fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die(by crucifixion),
it bringeth forth much “fruit”(74). What's the fruit you ask?Christ = Glory
Col:1:27: To whom God would make known what is the
riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
which is “Christ”(77) in you, the hope of “glory”(77): (John 14:23)Quote (martian @ Sep. 09 2010,02:53) Boy, you really have some whacko ideas.
Your ideas are entertaining but I have heard them all before
from other sources. They are as whacko now as they were then.John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him,
If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father
will love him, and “we” will come unto him, and make our bode with him.
(Click Here)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2010,14:30) Quote (martian @ Sep. 10 2010,01:59) Any one with any common sense will know that first hand knowledge is going to be superior then something told to us (even by God)
So were John's visions in Rev “first hand knowledge”? He SAW with his own eyes what was to come. Didn't that give John an advantage over the rest of us? He experienced knowledge first hand that we can only read about in his account of it.How now can we ever try to follow any of John's teachings since he wasn't EXACTLY LIKE US because he had knowledge we don't?
mike
Mike, John understood about as much from his “vision”, as did Daniel. Even though they were given to see what would happen, “faaaar” into the future, they had no clue as to what it all meant; I don't call that an advantage, I call that a privilege.Georg
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2010,13:25) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 13 2010,10:19) MIke……..John was (exactly) like us and any other Human being as well as Jesus also. GOD can give anyone He so choses anything He desires to. that Does not make that person any better then anyone else nor makes Him any different then we are. Can't you see how screwed up your thinking is becoming? Now your reasoning that John was really not like us, Man you are out there with this MYSTERY RELIGION ideology. How many more you have to tell us about that are not “really” like we are, perhaps you are not a human being either and maybe you preexisted on some Planet somewhere in the universe right?. Tell us about it Mike if you can recall anything. I am just jabbing at you i know , but come on Mike using John is a poor at best attempt to justify you false teaching of the preexistence of Jesus right brother? peace and love………………………………gene
Hi Gene,Maybe you misread my post. You and Martian's main ambition here seems to be to make Jesus be exactly as we are – and with no knowledge other than that which is also available to us – whether that's what scripture teaches or not.
I merely pointed out that John, like Jesus, also had knowledge not available to us on a first hand basis, so does that mean we can't follow his teachings either?
I don't even know anything about the stuff you were spouting…..it sure wasn't implied in my post.
mike
Are we ask to follow John in the same way we are asked to follow Jesus? Are we ask to overcome as john did or as Jesus did? Are we promised to be raised from the Dead as John was or as Jesus was?
This analogy has no more merit then the monkey analogy.
Even Paul says follow me as I follow Jesus. It always comes back to following Jesus in the end. Not John, not Paul and certainly not a bunch of monkeys.
Who says that the truths John taught were not available to others. That is a huge assumption on your part.
Secondly this is not about following just teachings. This is about actually becoming like Christ. Becoming like him in character, motives and intentions. and about him being the perfect example of how to be a perfected human with the fuilness of the character of God. John is not our example in that way.
I would suggest you stop trolling for reactions and do some honest research.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2010,14:30) Quote (martian @ Sep. 10 2010,01:59) Any one with any common sense will know that first hand knowledge is going to be superior then something told to us (even by God)
So were John's visions in Rev “first hand knowledge”? He SAW with his own eyes what was to come. Didn't that give John an advantage over the rest of us? He experienced knowledge first hand that we can only read about in his account of it.How now can we ever try to follow any of John's teachings since he wasn't EXACTLY LIKE US because he had knowledge we don't?
mike
Are we asked to follow Jesus or John. Are we ask to become like Christ or John. We are talking about becoming like Christ in character and relationship with His father. We are talking about overcoming like Christ not John.
You are not thinking critically. Your analogies have no merit.Quote (Baker @ Sep. 11 2010,10:23) Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,10:39) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 07 2010,08:11) Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,13:53) Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,00:19) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45) Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20) George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?
Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.Georg
You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”
The truth you say you have is the pre-0existence of Jesus. I want to know how that” truth” gives you hope?
How does it make Christ more of an example for us?
How does it show us a clear pattern that we can follow?
The pre-existence of Jesus does nothing to me, other than that it is a fact.“”” You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”””
You even quoted what I said; so why do you want to spin this into something else?
Why would you say, the pre-existence of Jesus gives me hope?
How can his pre-existence make Jesus a better example?
How can his pre-existence show you a clearer pattern to follow?
What does his pre-existence have to do with any of this? Nothing that I can see.Georg
I understand that you do not see it. That is the problem. If you believe that Jesus had any advantage over the rest of humanity due to his pre-existence then you have partially negated his being an example for us.
What hope can I gain from a creature doing anything if that creature is not like me?
I have hope in overcoming because I have an example that is just like me that overcame. If Christ is different then me I cannot use him as an exact example. It creates doubt in what I can follow him in and what I cannot.
How can I follow Christ and walk the paths that he walked if his path is determined by his pre-existence?
Your doctrine moves Christ away from us just like the Trinity does.
Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his Pre-existence. Do you agree?
If so, Then you must know that knowledge is what we base our decisions on. So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us. How can we follow that? How can we duplicate that?
Yes, Jesus knew who he was, God's son, and he knew were he came from, heaven. He was a spirit being “in” heaven, but not while he was on earth. If you call that an advantage, than yes it was, but, do you think any one else could have accomplished, what he accomplished, not sinned? had he sinned, he could not have died for ours.
He was “all” man,Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (flesh)
We are to imitate him, but God knows that we will not accomplish what Jesus did; that is why he died for us, his pre-existence has nothing to do with that.
What path are you trying to follow? you can never “BE” Christ, what is it that Jesus ask us to do?Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
That's all you have to do, I think you will find, that's hard enough.
“””Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his pre-existence. Do you agree?”””
YES
“””So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us.”””
I disagree,
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
God is not asking the impossible from us, so relax.
Georg
You contradict yourself.
“He was “all” man,” but yet you say he had knowledge we do not posses and never could from so called pre-existence. That is a contradiction.
His overcoming is supposed to be an example to us and yet you say he had some advantage in knowledge that would have influenced his ability to overcome. How do we follow that example.
You doctrine is just silly and non-sense. It defeats Christ as our example.
So if you had lived in heaven before being born on Earth and you had memories of that time, you would not be effected by that? That would not influence your decisions? Come on, show a little bit of reason here.I am not sure what you are trying to prove with Heb 2 but maybe try the context —
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
(NOTICE IT SAY IN ALL THINGS. IT DOES NOT SAY IN ALL THINGS EXCEPT PRE-EXISTENCE KNOWLEDGE)
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body.
God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being.
The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure.
How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new.Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than
a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:Why do you try to read something into scripture that is not there? Do you not ask God for his Holy Spirit to give you power to overcome sin? on your own you will never succeed.
That is what we are to do, Jesus never sinned, even though he was tempted in all things, that “IS” how we are to imitate Jesus, but God knows we will fail many times, read this.1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light (truth), as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
God knows we are sinners, and we “will” sin.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins (ask for forgiveness), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we think, because Jesus died for our sins, and therefore don't have to ask for forgiveness, we fool our-self.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Are you trying the impossible, or just looking for an excuse not to try at all?
Georg
You say-
It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body.
God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being.
The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure.Reply-
First none of you have yet defined (scripturally) what you mean by Spirit Being. That term does not exist in scripture. If you are going to use the scripture that Christ became a life giving spirit literally, then you must say that Christ literally became moving air or a wind. Making the term “spirit” an animated being is the same thing the Trinitarians do to make the spirit the third person of the trinity.
Secondly the scripture certainly indicates we can have the full measure of the Spirit.
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.You say-
How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new.Reply —
First you use as proof an assumption that Christ WAS a Spirit Being before his birth to Mary.
Second –
Was Christ resurrected to be born to Mary?
Did Christ die before being born to Mary?
Is there any way for one person to become like another that has been resurrected? No, we are ask to walk on this Earth in the same manner he walked on this Earth. Making decisions like him which must be made based on the same criteria/knowledge as he had.
We cannot walk like him on the Earth if his walk is based on knowledge or criteria that we cannot acquire.Quote (martian @ Sep. 14 2010,03:33) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 11 2010,10:23) Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,10:39) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 07 2010,08:11) Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,13:53) Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,00:19) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45) Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20) George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?
Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.Georg
You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”
The truth you say you have is the pre-0existence of Jesus. I want to know how that” truth” gives you hope?
How does it make Christ more of an example for us?
How does it show us a clear pattern that we can follow?
The pre-existence of Jesus does nothing to me, other than that it is a fact.“”” You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”””
You even quoted what I said; so why do you want to spin this into something else?
Why would you say, the pre-existence of Jesus gives me hope?
How can his pre-existence make Jesus a better example?
How can his pre-existence show you a clearer pattern to follow?
What does his pre-existence have to do with any of this? Nothing that I can see.Georg
I understand that you do not see it. That is the problem. If you believe that Jesus had any advantage over the rest of humanity due to his pre-existence then you have partially negated his being an example for us.
What hope can I gain from a creature doing anything if that creature is not like me?
I have hope in overcoming because I have an example that is just like me that overcame. If Christ is different then me I cannot use him as an exact example. It creates doubt in what I can follow him in and what I cannot.
How can I follow Christ and walk the paths that he walked if his path is determined by his pre-existence?
Your doctrine moves Christ away from us just like the Trinity does.
Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his Pre-existence. Do you agree?
If so, Then you must know that knowledge is what we base our decisions on. So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us. How can we follow that? How can we duplicate that?
Yes, Jesus knew who he was, God's son, and he knew were he came from, heaven. He was a spirit being “in” heaven, but not while he was on earth. If you call that an advantage, than yes it was, but, do you think any one else could have accomplished, what he accomplished, not sinned? had he sinned, he could not have died for ours.
He was “all” man,Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (flesh)
We are to imitate him, but God knows that we will not accomplish what Jesus did; that is why he died for us, his pre-existence has nothing to do with that.
What path are you trying to follow? you can never “BE” Christ, what is it that Jesus ask us to do?Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
That's all you have to do, I think you will find, that's hard enough.
“””Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his pre-existence. Do you agree?”””
YES
“””So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us.”””
I disagree,
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
God is not asking the impossible from us, so relax.
Georg
You contradict yourself.
“He was “all” man,” but yet you say he had knowledge we do not posses and never could from so called pre-existence. That is a contradiction.
His overcoming is supposed to be an example to us and yet you say he had some advantage in knowledge that would have influenced his ability to overcome. How do we follow that example.
You doctrine is just silly and non-sense. It defeats Christ as our example.
So if you had lived in heaven before being born on Earth and you had memories of that time, you would not be effected by that? That would not influence your decisions? Come on, show a little bit of reason here.I am not sure what you are trying to prove with Heb 2 but maybe try the context —
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
(NOTICE IT SAY IN ALL THINGS. IT DOES NOT SAY IN ALL THINGS EXCEPT PRE-EXISTENCE KNOWLEDGE)
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body.
God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being.
The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure.
How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new.Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my a
ppointed time will I wait, till my change come.Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
Why do you try to read something into scripture that is not there? Do you not ask God for his Holy Spirit to give you power to overcome sin? on your own you will never succeed.
That is what we are to do, Jesus never sinned, even though he was tempted in all things, that “IS” how we are to imitate Jesus, but God knows we will fail many times, read this.1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light (truth), as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
God knows we are sinners, and we “will” sin.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins (ask for forgiveness), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we think, because Jesus died for our sins, and therefore don't have to ask for forgiveness, we fool our-self.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Are you trying the impossible, or just looking for an excuse not to try at all?
Georg
You say-
It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body.
God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being.
The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure.Reply-
First none of you have yet defined (scripturally) what you mean by Spirit Being. That term does not exist in scripture. If you are going to use the scripture that Christ became a life giving spirit literally, then you must say that Christ literally became moving air or a wind. Making the term “spirit” an animated being is the same thing the Trinitarians do to make the spirit the third person of the trinity.
Secondly the scripture certainly indicates we can have the full measure of the Spirit.
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.You say-
How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new.Reply —
First you use as proof an assumption that Christ WAS a Spirit Being before his birth to Mary.
Second –
Was Christ resurrected to be born to Mary?
Did Christ die before being born to Mary?
Is there any way for one person to become like another that has been resurrected? No, we are ask to walk on this Earth in the same manner he walked on this Earth. Making decisions like him which must be made based on the same criteria/knowledge as he had.
We cannot walk like him on the Earth if his walk is based on knowledge or criteria that we cannot acquire.
You make as much sense as a dryer in the dessert.Georg
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 13 2010,17:39) Mike, John understood about as much from his “vision”, as did Daniel. Even though they were given to see what would happen, “faaaar” into the future, they had no clue as to what it all meant; I don't call that an advantage, I call that a privilege. Georg
Hey Georg,Martian is dead set on Jesus not having any advantage over us whatsoever, so the John revelation was to prove that others besides Jesus had advantages over us. Martian thinks if Jesus already knew from past association with the Father how things were going to go, then his “faith” would be more of a “knowing for fact” than a “faith”, so it would then be unfair to expect us to have as much faith as someone who had direct knowledge of what was to come.
I could have listed Paul's being blinded and spoken to directly by the risen Jesus instead. Did that give Paul an advantage over us? If so, can we still follow Paul's teachings?
I could have mentioned all the miracles the disciples witnessed with their own two eyes. We don't see those kind of “right before you very eyes” miracles today. Was it easier for the disciples to have faith in God because they saw Him work through them in an “instant gratification” way? If so, are we still allowed to follow what they taught?
The bottom line is that we are suppose to follow the teachings of scripture no matter who knew more or less than we do. We don't have to know everything “they” knew in order to follow scripture. Jesus doesn't have to be exactly like us in order for us to follow him.
peace and love,
mike
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