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Pierre,
You wrote:
Quote men logic
I assume you fail to properly define the logic of man since you are misusing the terms. The logic of man is logic that depends on the principles of this world. It is also contradictory to the nature of God. Since God is not irrational it follows that any irrational idea does not come from God and thus is merely the invention of the corrupt or the ignorant. I have pointed out that the tenet of Preexistence like the tenet of Trinitarianism is irrational and thus dependant on the principles of this world.
You wrote:
Quote Scriptures are very clear on the preexistence of the son of God (the Word) …
Really , and it is just as clear to some that Jesus teaches cannibalism as after all he taught his students that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. That is the error of those who chose to follow the letter of scripture instead of the spirit. You make that same error when interpreting Colossians 1 and other scriptures to support your irrational tenet of preexistence.
You wrote:
Quote …but this understanding is not given by men but by the spirit of God, and only to those who are in line with his spirit, not the others
I have already pointed out why the tenet of preexistence is not based on the Spirit of God but is instead of the doctrine of those that go by the letter of scripture.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2010,21:04) Pierre, You wrote:
Quote men logic
I assume you fail to properly define the logic of man since you are misusing the terms. The logic of man is logic that depends on the principles of this world. It is also contradictory to the nature of God. Since God is not irrational it follows that any irrational idea does not come from God and thus is merely the invention of the corrupt or the ignorant. I have pointed out that the tenet of Preexistence like the tenet of Trinitarianism is irrational and thus dependant on the principles of this world.
You wrote:
Quote Scriptures are very clear on the preexistence of the son of God (the Word) …
Really , and it is just as clear to some that Jesus teaches cannibalism as after all he taught his students that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. That is the error of those who chose to follow the letter of scripture instead of the spirit. You make that same error when interpreting Colossians 1 and other scriptures to support your irrational tenet of preexistence.
You wrote:
Quote …but this understanding is not given by men but by the spirit of God, and only to those who are in line with his spirit, not the others
I have already pointed out why the tenet of preexistence is not based on the Spirit of God but is instead of the doctrine of those that go by the letter of scripture.
kerwinlogic of men is valid on the concept that men would know all the facts .
what he hardly know,
so the logic of God is true because God knows all things and also control them,
but God is spirit and he has given us the way to benefit of is wisdom but most of men as rejected is wisdom,and so fail to come to the true understanding of his will.like you doPierre
Pierre,
You wrote:
Quote if Christ was not the son of God before men creation, this would mean that he is a mere man, NO MAN CAN SAVE ANY OTHER MAN WITH HIS LIVE ,HE ONLY CAN SAVE HIS OWN;
Jesus saves us by his life, death, resurrection, and ascension. He saves us by his life because he was tempted just as we are but without sinning. He saves us by his death because this world and its god was found corrupt and so condemned. He saves us by his resurrection because the grave has no hold on those who choose to live by the spirit. He saves us by his ascension because he sat down on the right hand of God and became the mediator of the new covenant. Only a mere man could to all this as the savior of mankind must be like his brothers for his life with its trials and troubles to represent them before God.
You wrote:
Quote IF CHRIST WAS NOT PREEXISTING THERE WAS NO NEED FOR GOD TO INTERVENE IN HIS BIRTH.THE PROCREATION AND THE BLESSING WOULD HAVE BEEN SUFFICIENT.
I would not conclude that as God does as he chooses but it is always righteous and Jesus’ miraculous conceptions as well as other events such as the star of Bethlehem were a sign attesting that Jesus was the prophesied Anointed One.
Pierre,
You seem to fail to understand my point which is that the word of God does not contradict itself. If your understanding of the Word is contradictory then it is your understanding that is irrational not God’s. In fact by saying that God’s Word is irrational, and you do by believing an irrational tenet, you are accusing God of being unstable at best.
You would be wise to seek true understanding that does not accuse God of mental instability or any other weakness.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2010,00:36) Pierre, You wrote:
Quote if Christ was not the son of God before men creation, this would mean that he is a mere man, NO MAN CAN SAVE ANY OTHER MAN WITH HIS LIVE ,HE ONLY CAN SAVE HIS OWN;
Jesus saves us by his life, death, resurrection, and ascension. He saves us by his life because he was tempted just as we are but without sinning. He saves us by his death because this world and its god was found corrupt and so condemned. He saves us by his resurrection because the grave has no hold on those who choose to live by the spirit. He saves us by his ascension because he sat down on the right hand of God and became the mediator of the new covenant. Only a mere man could to all this as the savior of mankind must be like his brothers for his life with its trials and troubles to represent them before God.
You wrote:
Quote IF CHRIST WAS NOT PREEXISTING THERE WAS NO NEED FOR GOD TO INTERVENE IN HIS BIRTH.THE PROCREATION AND THE BLESSING WOULD HAVE BEEN SUFFICIENT.
I would not conclude that as God does as he chooses but it is always righteous and Jesus’ miraculous conceptions as well as other events such as the star of Bethlehem were a sign attesting that Jesus was the prophesied Anointed One.
kerwinyou are skating on thin ice
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2010,01:42) Pierre, You seem to fail to understand my point which is that the word of God does not contradict itself. If your understanding of the Word is contradictory then it is your understanding that is irrational not God’s. In fact by saying that God’s Word is irrational, and you do by believing an irrational tenet, you are accusing God of being unstable at best.
You would be wise to seek true understanding that does not accuse God of mental instability or any other weakness.
kerwinyou are blowing in the wind ,i have no reference to what you talking about
so please clarify it
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2010,10:41) Martian, You wrote:
Quote I am making fun of the stupidity of the Preexisters.
It does not sound like satire or mockery to me. It sounds like anger that has grown from a bitter root. Mockery would be to make fun of the fact that Preexisters believe the absurdity that Jesus was born before his ancestors. They must also believe that a person is an adult before they are conceived and that every event occurs in reverse.
Their arguments are no more rational than those of the Trinitarians because Satan has placed a powerful delusion on both sects. The duty of a Christian is to speak the truth in love and always persevere in hoping that God will free those who have ears but cannot hear from their self delusion.
These forums are one place to attempt to accomplish that goal. Whether your effort is fruitful is up to God and not you; so trust in God and trust in his Son that all things happen for God’s good purpose.
I am not really concerned about what you think I mean or how I sound.
In addition forums are a waste of time. Entertainment is the best that can be accomplished. I am sorry that you have yet to learn that.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 22 2010,17:48) I have said it many times, that whether “through” or “by” the fact is that Jesus created and had participation in the creation of this universe.
Hi D-Linquent
2 Kings 19:15 NIV
And Hezekiah prayed to the LORD : “O LORD, God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.2 Chronicles 2:12 NIV
And Hiram added: “Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel, who made heaven and earth!Isaiah 37:16 NIV
“O LORD Almighty, God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.Acts 14:15 NIV
“Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them.Acts 4:24, 30 NIV
24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
There are many more scriptures like these Dennison. But this last one spells it out very clearly. First, they pray to “GOD”. Luke wrote Acts, so can you show me any indication that Luke thought Jesus was “God” or “a part of God”? No, so when Luke says that Peter and John prayed to “God”, that means they prayed to the Father Jehovah. And they credited ONLY the Father Jehovah with creation. And the fact that they didn't include Jesus as “a part of God” is made clear by the way they closed the prayer in verse 30. They prayed TO GOD………..THROUGH the name of HIS SERVANT, JESUS CHRIST.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (martian @ Oct. 24 2010,02:03) I am not really concerned about what you think I mean or how I sound.
In addition forums are a waste of time. Entertainment is the best that can be accomplished. I am sorry that you have yet to learn that.
Hi Kerwin,I was wondering how the shoe fits now that it is on the other foot? Do you think it is also the “wicked things” that YOU say that “inadvertently cause Martian to be hateful”?
And I was wondering how YOU would feel if right now I and some others started pointing the “blame finger” at YOU, as if you had done something wrong to incur Martian's wrath………..just like you and Shimmer did to me? 
peace and love,
mikeBump for Kerwin:
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2010,12:57) I believe you have reached the conclusion that Colossians 1:18 is speaking of the new creation and Colossians 1:15 is speaking of the old.
Hi Kerwin,Does this scripture relate to the “new” or “old” creation?
Hebrews 1:2 NIV
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.How about this one?
John 1:3 NIV
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.peace and love,
mikePierre,
It seems I made an error in assuming you know scripture. To support my point about Jesus’ life saving us I point to Hebrews which states:
Hebrews 4:15(NIV) reads:
Quote For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
This is a necessary point of faith and in order to believe it we must also believe Jesus had no advantage over any other human being that each and every one of us can also obtain. His advantages are his faith and the Holy Spirit both of which are obtainable to any human being. To truly believe this you must also believe Jesus is a human being just like every other human being.
Jesus saved us by his death because according to Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death and since Jesus did not commit the crime he did not deserve the penalty for the crime even though he received it. It is because of this injustice Satan now stands condemned, John 16:11. The present world also stands condemned by his sacrifice, 1 Corinthians 11:32, just as the pre-Flood world was condemned by Noah’s faith, Hebrews 11:7.
Jesus saved us by his resurrection because death could not hold on to him, Acts 2:24, as God would not let his Holy One see decay, Acts 2:27. Paul also echoes these words by stating he was resurrected from the dead and declared to be the Son of God through the Spirit of Righteousness, Romans 1:4. Those that are adopted and declared as sons of God by and through the Spirit of righteousness will also be resurrected from the dead for the grave cannot hold them.
He saves us by his ascension as he sat down on the right hand of God, Mark 16:10, as King of everything in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18, where he mediates the New Covenant, Hebrews 9:15 and 12:24.
I see no thin ice but I do see what God states.
Mike Boll,
Thank you for the bump as sadly I forgot you post.
John 1: 3 is speaking of the Word of God which may also be the Spirit of God. Genesis tells God spoke his word and creation came to be. In addition the Spirit of God was said to hover over the waters.
Hebrews could either be a mistranslation or speaking of the New Creation. I am speaking from memory and would have to look at both the context and Greek lexicon to see how I came to each conclusion.
Mike Boll,
I see Martian as yet being a slave to sin and so am not surprised when he sins. If you play with a dangerous animal and get injured why blame the animal. On the other hand I am pleasantly surprised when he acts according to the will of God.
Our goal is to be freed from sin by faith in Jesus. May you, I and Martian all obtain that goal and the sooner the better.
Quote (martian @ Oct. 23 2010,20:03) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2010,10:41) Martian, You wrote:
Quote I am making fun of the stupidity of the Preexisters.
It does not sound like satire or mockery to me. It sounds like anger that has grown from a bitter root. Mockery would be to make fun of the fact that Preexisters believe the absurdity that Jesus was born before his ancestors. They must also believe that a person is an adult before they are conceived and that every event occurs in reverse.
Their arguments are no more rational than those of the Trinitarians because Satan has placed a powerful delusion on both sects. The duty of a Christian is to speak the truth in love and always persevere in hoping that God will free those who have ears but cannot hear from their self delusion.
These forums are one place to attempt to accomplish that goal. Whether your effort is fruitful is up to God and not you; so trust in God and trust in his Son that all things happen for God’s good purpose.
I am not really concerned about what you think I mean or how I sound.
In addition forums are a waste of time. Entertainment is the best that can be accomplished. I am sorry that you have yet to learn that.
Actually your right.
It is a waste of time of its only for entertainment or any other reason than getting closer to God.
or even for the sake of debate.
I know the forum as help me in many ways to know scripture very well and look into studies that i have never considered nor have been discussed in my daily life.But i think discussing the fundamentals of life it self, which is the Word of God, without getting closer to God, nor getting closer to loving one another in “agreement” is a compelete waste of time.
I think only sticking to what we believe is a limitation to the truth of God.
I also strongly believe that we must deny ourselves and deny this dependancy on knowledge, and seek the spirit of Truth himself.
I Believe there is ONE God, And the answer to all our questions and differences can be solved if each one of us “agreed” to go to the source of all things and Ask him.
Why confide in what we “think”
Or what we have learned, but rather confide in God who can answer all our questions and put to rest all our differences.I think this forum can either Break you, or Build you.
Break you spiritualy, or help you grow ScripturallyI bet you if we were all face to face, it would be a different story. IMO
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2010,00:46) Pierre, It seems I made an error in assuming you know scripture. To support my point about Jesus’ life saving us I point to Hebrews which states:
Hebrews 4:15(NIV) reads:
Quote For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
This is a necessary point of faith and in order to believe it we must also believe Jesus had no advantage over any other human being that each and every one of us can also obtain. His advantages are his faith and the Holy Spirit both of which are obtainable to any human being. To truly believe this you must also believe Jesus is a human being just like every other human being.
Jesus saved us by his death because according to Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death and since Jesus did not commit the crime he did not deserve the penalty for the crime even though he received it. It is because of this injustice Satan now stands condemned, John 16:11. The present world also stands condemned by his sacrifice, 1 Corinthians 11:32, just as the pre-Flood world was condemned by Noah’s faith, Hebrews 11:7.
Jesus saved us by his resurrection because death could not hold on to him, Acts 2:24, as God would not let his Holy One see decay, Acts 2:27. Paul also echoes these words by stating he was resurrected from the dead and declared to be the Son of God through the Spirit of Righteousness, Romans 1:4. Those that are adopted and declared as sons of God by and through the Spirit of righteousness will also be resurrected from the dead for the grave cannot hold them.
He saves us by his ascension as he sat down on the right hand of God, Mark 16:10, as King of everything in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18, where he mediates the New Covenant, Hebrews 9:15 and 12:24.
I see no thin ice but I do see what God states.
kerwinall your thinking is based upon this lie;This is a necessary point of faith and in order to believe it we must also believe Jesus had no advantage over any other human being that each and every one of us can also obtain.
Mt 8:29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
Mt 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”Mk 1:1 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Mk 3:11 Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”
YOU ARE NOT IN ACCORD WITH SCRIPTURES CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD BECAUSE HIS PREEXISTING CONDITION.
Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
THIS IS NOT HOW THE NORMAL HUMAN BEING HIS MADE.IS ITLk 22:70 They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?”
He replied, “You are right in saying I am.”
Jn 1:34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”
Jn 1:49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.”
Jn 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
Jn 11:27 “Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.”IF THE CHRIST CAME FROM THE WORLD OF HUMANS THEN WHY DOES IT SAY HE HAS TO COME INTO THE WORLD???
YOUR INTERPRETATIONS ARE OF JEWISH VIEWS ,
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2010,18:04) If you play with a dangerous animal and get injured why blame the animal.
I wasn't “injured” by the things Martian said to me. I was “injured” by those I didn't think to be “dangerous animals” joining in the attack.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2010,17:57) Mike Boll, John 1: 3 is speaking of the Word of God which may also be the Spirit of God.
Hi Kerwin,You are correct that John 1:3 speaks of the “Word of God”. And you need only read Rev 19:13 to clearly understand who that “Word of God” who “became flesh”, “dwelled among us”, and “had the glory of an only begotten son” is.
Kerwin:
Quote Hebrews could either be a mistranslation or speaking of the New Creation. I am speaking from memory and would have to look at both the context and Greek lexicon to see how I came to each conclusion.
A “mistranslation”? The “New Creation”? Didn't you noticed how I underlined the word “made” – as in PAST TENSE? It is writtin in the Greek “Aorist” tense, which is generally translated as past tense. Please look into it, as I am anxiously awaiting your findings.
peace and love,
mikeKerwin………The word of GOD was (IN) Jesus the FLESH BEING the WORD of or (FROM) GOD was NOT MADE FLESH,IT CAME TO BE (IN) THE FLESH (MAN) JESUS, Because it is SPIRIT, as Jesus said it was remember, The WORDS which he said were (NOT HIS), (ARE SPIRIT and LIFE) that is what those word He was telling US (WERE) AND (ARE). Jesus also said you can not (SEE) Spirit remember , why because SPIRIT is (intellect) of the (MIND) you can't see it , “LET THIS (MIND) BE IN YOU AS (IT) WAS ALSO IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD. John said no man has seen GOD at ANY TIME. JESUS DISCLOSED HIM TO US BECAUSE GOD WAS (IN) JESUS BY HIS SPIRIT, GOD THE FATHER INDWELT JESUS, REMEMBER “THE FATHER IS IN ME AND I AM IN HIM” and again the Farther (IN) ME (HE) DOES THE (WORKS). “THE SON OF (MAN) CAN DO (NOTHING) OF HIMSELF. We also can have the very same (MIND) In Us as Jesus had (IN) Him and when that happens the will be brought about the saying “GOD in all and Trough ALL”> IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Mike Boll,
You said:
Quote I wasn't “injured” by the things Martian said to me. I was “injured” by those I didn't think to be “dangerous animals” joining in the attack.
I do not know about anyone else but I choose to rebuke those I love when I see a perceived sin because I hope they will change their ways. I also realize that I am limited by being human and thus I make mistakes. I therefore either choose to allow my brother to defend himself and/or learn to suffer his perceived wrongdoing as judgment is God’s. My hope is that my neighbor watches himself and repents of those sins he truly makes. In this way I strive to make peace between my friends and God. In addition I strive to make peace between my friends.
edited to correct name of addressee.
Gene,
I agree with most of what you wrote but the Spirit is not intellect though it effects the mind and heart. The Spirit is God's Love as when you are filled with the God's love and so love like him you do not fulfill the desires if the sinful nature.
There are other aspects of the Spirit as it gives gifts to men as well as different levels of authority.
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