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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 18 2010,14:03) Hi Gene, I don't think that's what Paul was saying at all, but that's a moot point. I would like to discuss with you and Kerwin exactly what message Paul was trying to convey…………but after we agree on the words he himself wrote.
Can you agree that your understanding has Paul writing that someone who already was a human being was made in the likeness of a human being?
peace and love,
mike
Mike ……….that is not a mute Point at all it is the whole point Paul was driving at, of course you would say it is a mute point because you do not want to deal with it. You say you want to hone on one or two words that can be taken many way as i have already shown you, That is a wrong approach to this, we have to put all thing into context of what is being said , But you continue to try to ignore that. Anyone can pull a word and applying it to what ever theology they want to, as you are doing . It is Like straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. IMOpeace and love…………………………….gene
Mike ………….Have you ever hear the term you can;t see the forest because of the trees, that is what preexistences do they find a word somewhere and draw complete doctrines out from it , and miss the complete context of what was being said even if it contradicts many scriptures we already have regarding that subject. It is like a person who is (IN) the prison and can't see outside of it , or a person who can stand outside an see the whole Prison it self. You have to let GO of all those false teachings in order to see clearly . We are told to “come out of her my people that you recieve not of her (false Church) Plagues”. People have no idea of the amount of False teaching that have been taught to them and the Preexistence of Jesus is only one of Hundreds of false teachings. But the worst of all them is the teaching that separate Jesus fro our Identity because it destory not only the work of Jesus as a Man as an example for mankind , but all the work of GOD in Mankind. IMO
peace and love………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 18 2010,19:02) I see you came up with a base I had not thought of. If I understand your interpretation correctly Jesus first had the nature of God and then afterward was made in human likeness. I on the other hand see that Jesus has the righteous nature of God at the same time he was made into human likeness.
Hi Kerwin,You have correctly identified how I read and understand it. I see your point and have to ask what it was he “emptied himself” of when he “was made in the likeness of a human being”. And I also thought that you thought Jesus recieved his “righteous nature of God” at the Jordan. How could he AFTER THAT be “made in the likeness of a human being”?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 19 2010,03:05) Mike ……….that is not a mute Point at all it is the whole point Paul was driving at, of course you would say it is a mute point because you do not want to deal with it. You say you want to hone on one or two words that can be taken many way as i have already shown you,
Hi Gene,I think Paul was saying that we should be willing to leave any cushy postition we have and give all we have to help our brothers…….even to the point of dying for them. We should follow the example of Jesus who had the best position anyone could hope for at the right hand of God, but left that position willingly and in effect “gave up everything he had” to serve and help others………even to the point of dying a very humiliating and painful death for us.
Okay? Now like I said, what you or I THINK Paul was saying is not the main focus here. The main focus is to understand the exact words he did say, and THEN form our understanding AROUND THEM…………. not the other way around.
So, show me once more – for I seemed to have missed it – how someone who was a human being could then be “made in the likeness of a human being”. If you can't gain an understanding of exactly what Paul wrote, then what good is your “OPINION” on what he was trying to convey?
Let's gain a COMPLETE understanding of the words that were written first……..THEN form our OPINIONS, okay?
peace and love,
mikeMartian
this is from your first quote;;On several threads I have asked for both Trinitarians an Pre-existers to show me good fruit from their doctrine. None has showed real fruit.
This is what I am looking for —
How does your doctrine change my heart? (not my mind)
How does your doctrine make Christ a more viable example for me?
How does your doctrine show the path I am to follow?
How does your doctrine protect the character of God?
How does your doctrine give me hope?
How does your doctrine change my character to be like Christ?These are the kinds of things I am looking for. If you can show me more positive results to these questions, then my doctrine, then I will switch and be an advocate for your doctrine.
Back to topby reading this again and again a question came to my mind,why do you ask us men for those answers this is between you and your God whoever he may be
it is our God by scriptures who give us the answers but only if we put is words in our hearths,and practice them day after day.
Pierre
Mike Boll,
Jesus had a righteous nature at the moment in his life when he could have committed a sin but through faith resisted the devil. I do not know when that moment was but I suspicion he was still in his mother’s womb. I know this to be true because he never sinned.
I believe “emptied” is a synonym for “humbled”.
I believe he was made in human likeness in his mother’s womb.
Mike………..Jesus took on the nature of a man servant, not even just a Man but a MAN SERVANT, even though he had the NATURE of GOD (IN) HIM he never emptied that out of Himself the Holy Spirit he recieved at the Jordan , He simply HUMBLED himself not regarding this nature in a way that would rob GOD of Glory by trying to be an equal of God, no but took on a humble human servant role and served all of mankind his brothers and sisters all of us , and Paul's Point was we need to have this same attitude in us also as Jesus had. That was the ONLY POINT Paul was driving at and nothing else. Trying to change focuses on some word that came be taken many ways of what he was saying is misleading and obscures the scriptures, it clouds up the main issue. Paul was not addressing Jesus' PRE-EARTH EXISTENCE AT ALL, the context should tell you that. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2010,19:47) Mike Boll, Jesus had a righteous nature at the moment in his life when he could have committed a sin but through faith resisted the devil. I do not know when that moment was but I suspicion he was still in his mother’s womb.
Hi Kerwin,If Jesus had his “righteous nature” as a fetus, then he could not have been said to have “emptied” himself of anything before being “made in the likeness of a human being”, right? He never “emptied himself” of his “righteous nature”, so what else could he have had as a fetus to “empty himself” of?
And if he was in the “form of God” as an adult human being – as Gene and Martian suggest – then he couldn't have been said to have been “made in the likeness of a human being”. And the question would still remain about what exactly he “emptied himself” of, since we know it wasn't his “righteous nature”.
Kerwin:
Quote I believe “emptied” is a synonym for “humbled”.
I agree to a point, and the NIV translates it as “made himself nothing”. But a different Greek word that actually means “humble” is used in 2:8.Kerwin:
Quote I believe he was made in human likeness in his mother’s womb.
Great. But what could he have “emptied himself of”, or who could he have “humbled himself before” while still in his mother's womb?peace and love,
mikeHi Gene,
Phil 2 NIV
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!5. We should have the same attitude as Jesus
6. Who, existing as a powerful spirit being at the right hand of God, knew better than to forget he was NOT God Himself, but a servant of his God.
7. So instead of “pitching a fit”, he obeyed his God's will to perform a service for Him. Instead of saying, “What?!? I'm the second greatest being in existence and you want ME to go to earth and die?!?”, he gladly humbled himself before his God, who then made him in the human likeness required to fulfill his God's will.
8. And even after the excruciatingly low blow of being made into one of the lessor creatures God created THROUGH him, he further humbled himself to the point of allowing these puny humans to actually beat him, spit on him, humiliate him, and KILL him! I mean, one angel wiped out 185,000 Assyrian men in one night! Can you imagine how humiliating it was for Jesus to have to succomb to the will of mere mortal men?
But because he followed his God's commands happily and without fail, God has now exalted him to an even higher position and given him the right to be “King of kings and Lord of lords”. Before Jesus' great act of selflessness, the angels only bowed to their God, but they will now bow to Jesus too.
Okay Gene, that's how I understand the words used. And contrary to what you assert, it is far from just “one word” in “one scripture” that leads me to this conclusion. There are many more words in many more scriptures that confirm my understanding. But if you can't logically make the actual words Paul used in Phil 2 fit into your doctrine, then it seems to me to be a good starting point. Because they fit BEAUTIFULLY into my understanding.
Now, unless you want me to just keep cutting and pasting this same explanation to each of your posts, I suggest you stop doing that. I've heard enough of WHY you believe, WHAT you believe and HOW you believe about pre-existence. Isn't it about time we actually delve into the words of scripture to see what the truth is?
peace and love,
mikeMike Boll,
Jesus being righteous as God is righteous could have chosen to become full of himself because of that fact and so fall from grace. Instead he took on an attitude of humility and decided to become a servant of all. He persevered in doing this despite all Satan threw at him even to dying on the cross. God saw his deeds were pure and so both resurrected him and appointed him King over heaven and earth.
Hi Kerwin,
I feel like you are “dancing around” the issue here. Your last post didn't answer my last post.
What did the fetus Jesus have that he “emptied himself” of? Who did the fetus Jesus “humble himself” before?
Because the emptying/humbling took place before he was “made in the likeness of a human being”.
And why those particular words anyway, Kerwin? Why would't Paul just say “And then he was born”?
mike
Yeah Kerwin. Why pretend that all those scriptures do not mean what they say?
Why pretend that all these scriptures mean the opposite of what they say?
Why pretend that the context is wrong?I don't see the point in all that pretending.
When I signed up to serve God, I did so with the attitude that I was a disciple of truth and not the master.What benefit is there to twist truth to serve your own bias, and then die and find that God wasn't too happy about that? It's not like you are getting paid money or some other temporal thing either. You in fact have nothing to gain, temporarily and you have loss eternally. What is the point in using the scriptures to suit yourself?
e.g., when the Jews said, “You are not yet 50 years old, and you have seen Abraham”. And Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”. You ignore the meaning of “I am” which is like “I think, therefore I am, (I exist)”. You also ignore the context. There are probably many more examples that can be pointed out.
Mike Boll,
They appear to get poetic in the Middle Eastern countries. It seems to be part of the area's culture; perhaps more so in ancient times. You see the same thing in other scriptures. Paul seemed to do that as well.
I do not agree with you that Jesus humbled himself before becoming a man as a comma separates items that occur at the same time, at least some of the time. Sill even in his mother's womb a child has the likeness of a human fairly early and according to scripture can be moved to action by the holy spirit at 6 month of gestation, Luke 1:41. Perhaps even earlier though I know of no scripture attesting to that.
Jesus humbled himself before God.
T8,
The reason Paul waxed poetic was that he was using Jesus’ actions to demonstrate to his readers what having the same attitude as Christ meant and that such an attitude will be rewarded by God. My interpretation agrees with his purpose. Does yours?
I have also said nothing that cannot be supported by other scriptures, including that humans are formed in their mother’s wombs.
As for:
You wrote:
Quote e.g., when the Jews said, “You are not yet 50 years old, and you have seen Abraham”. And Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”.
Scripture does not contradict itself and a descendant does not come before his ancestor. Abraham is Jesus’ ancestor and so your chosen interpretation is not supported by Jesus’ genealogy. Since that is true another interpretation must be correct.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2010,23:46) T8, The reason Paul waxed poetic was that he was using Jesus’ actions to demonstrate to his readers what having the same attitude as Christ meant and that such an attitude will be rewarded by God. My interpretation agrees with his purpose. Does yours?
I have also said nothing that cannot be supported by other scriptures, including that humans are formed in their mother’s wombs.
As for:
You wrote:
Quote e.g., when the Jews said, “You are not yet 50 years old, and you have seen Abraham”. And Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”.
Scripture does not contradict itself and a descendant does not come before his ancestor. Abraham is Jesus’ ancestor and so your chosen interpretation is not supported by Jesus’ genealogy. Since that is true another interpretation must be correct.
kerwinthis also is not true;Jn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
Jn 8:57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
Jn 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”i mean what Jesus say about Abraham being rejoiced and ad that “he saw it” how did he know that ??
Christ must have been there ,because it is not written anywere.
is that also a lie??
Pierre
all
there is much doubt about the word of God being what it is ,many here and every were have doubts how then can they believe what is written??
Pierre
Pierre,
Jesus spoke of Abraham seeing Jesus' day because Abraham believed God when God promised him.
Galatians 3:16(NIV) reads:
Quote The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.
also read:
Galatians 3:19(NIV):
Quote What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
The seed clearly came after the promise and the promise is clearly Jesus so he could not have come before Abraham.
One way scripture attests that Jesus is before Abraham is Jesus is the Messiah and thus Lord of Abraham. The coming of Jesus was also foreseen before Abraham was born.
Still, it is easier for me to conclude what the scripture does not mean, than what it does.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 21 2010,01:21) Pierre, Jesus spoke of Abraham seeing Jesus' day because Abraham believed God when God promised him.
Galatians 3:16(NIV) reads:
Quote The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.
also read:
Galatians 3:19(NIV):
Quote What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
The seed clearly came after the promise and the promise is clearly Jesus so he could not have come before Abraham.
One way scripture attests that Jesus is before Abraham is Jesus is the Messiah and thus Lord of Abraham. The coming of Jesus was also foreseen before Abraham was born.
Still, it is easier for me to conclude what the scripture does not mean, than what it does.
kerwinyou do not answer the question,you only believe what you want to believe??
Heb 9:26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
1Pe 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
Mt 13:35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
“I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”Mt 17:10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
Mt 17:25 “Yes, he does,” he repliedMk 4:28 All by itself the soil produces grain—first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head
1Co 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.if those scriptures are not worthy to be trusted i do not know what would
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 20 2010,17:01) all there is much doubt about the word of God being what it is ,many here and every were have doubts how then can they believe what is written??
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,Does that include you?
Or do you want your words 'only' to apply to all others?
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