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Istari,
Quote Trinitarians define God as three in one. Three entities in one being. But each is INDEPENDENT? Each has a separate 'Status' and has separate attributes!!
How ridiculous…!If each IS GOD then each has ALL the attributes of GOD.
that actually makes senseQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 18 2011,22:36) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 16 2011,02:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2011,00:43) Hi D, So you disagree with Tertullian's common sense understanding that He who makes is one, and he through whom the thing is made is another?
It is for this point that I brought up Tertullian in the first place, and you've not commented on this part of his writing.
Hi Mike,
Im telling you that Tertullians a deluded.
I can see that from your own deluded mind, someone who makes a perfectly common-sense statement like the one Tertullian made must be "deluded".
Let those words ring in your head for a while, D. Maybe they'll clear out the cobwebs.
HE WHO MAKES IS ONE, AND HE THROUGH WHOM THE THING IS MADE IS ANOTHER.
Now add those common-sense words to the prayer in Acts 4. In that prayer, you'll notice that Jesus is listed as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO the God who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them. And by being listed as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO that One, he is simultaneously listed as one OF the "EVERYTHING in them" that was created BY that One.
Mike,You know I dont get you?
You do understand that Tertullians is the founder of the Trinity doctrine rigjavascript:emoticon('')ht?
?I don't believe in the Trinity Mike, and Neither do you.
So how is it that you would cite and claim some how this Man, (who you would call "deluded" for believeing the Trintiy) actually has " perfectly common sense"I would't even consider him as a source for anything. Yes he makes nice examples for what I believe in, but other than that He is deluded.
And you would agree because you dont believe in the Trinity so what of it?
You can ADD to what ever you want To scripture mike Lol, and embrace Tertullian while your at it!
You sure are one Adulterer of Doctrine??
Fighting the Trinitarians and in bed with Tertullian hahahahaha 
Still can't argue the absolute logic of Tertullian's statement, huh? Is there a rule that we must agree with EVERYTHING Albert Einstein ever said in order to recognize the brilliance in ONE THING he said?
I quote MANY extremely logical and scriptural things from NETNotes also………which was written by 25 Trinitarians. Just because they drop the ball on certain things doesn't mean they are always wrong on everything they say.
The question is, can YOU say ANYTHING AT ALL to refute the brilliant logic of Tertullian's statement? If not, then accept the simple TRUTH of THAT statement, and don't try to make this about OTHER THINGS that Tertullian may or may not have believed.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2011,07:26) Still can't argue the absolute logic of Tertullian's statement, huh? Is there a rule that we must agree with EVERYTHING Albert Einstein ever said in order to recognize the brilliance in ONE THING he said?
I quote MANY extremely logical and scriptural things from NETNotes also………which was written by 25 Trinitarians. Just because they drop the ball on certain things doesn't mean they are always wrong on everything they say.
The question is, can YOU say ANYTHING AT ALL to refute the brilliant logic of Tertullian's statement? If not, then accept the simple TRUTH of THAT statement, and don't try to make this about OTHER THINGS that Tertullian may or may not have believed.
peace,
mike
Actually your logic is flawed because its out of context.I could refute it and will.
But here is your problem is that your using evidence from people who disagree with you, which doesnt help your cause. Its Contradicting.
It doesn't make sense.
In other words Tertuallian was providing that point because he believes in a Triuine God whom consists of Three seperate persons. so of course he would say something like that to prove these seperate beings coexist as one God. In other words your cutting his quote in half and just believe in part of it. It doesn't prove anything becaues in the end of the day the guy would disagree with you. Its a statement not evidence.
And since i dont believe in the Trinity quoting Tertullain doesnt do anything to me, but maybe it hinders WJ……..?
But its not a biblical proof, and its Trituallian, why would you take it as a absolute proof? Its his personal opinion based on scripture, what proof is that?
Anyways I already stated that his ideas contradict eachother, and Doesnt make any sense.
Quote > He states the Son is the "portion" of the whole.
and than he goes further to contradict himself, by stating there is another.Its either or.. Its
Either there are compeletly two different pies altogether, one that is Gigantic and beyond this universe, and another pie that i sent to you that is smaller.Or
That out of this Gigantic pie, a "portion" is sent to you to consume, but out of the same pie. So the Porition is from the same substance and the same taste, flavor, and nutrietion that you would receive from the whole gigantic pie.
but eatin the gigantic one would kill you, but eating that one portion is enough.
Tertuilian is trying to present a "godhead" of three beings, thats why he is contradicting himself in his statments.
We have been taught that he proceeds forth from God, and in that procession he is generated [ begotten], so that he is the Son of God, and is called "God" from unity of substance with God. For God, too, is Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass, the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun–there is no division of substance, but merely an extension. Thus Christ is spirit of the Spirit, and god of the God, as light of Light is kindled.
The only problem with Tertuillian statements that He focuses on two seperate persons. But he make good points, if only his conclusive thoughts were a tad different.
So just because you say i didnt refute it, doesnt make it so, I did refute it.
lol
your a jokeNO D, you didn't refute it, nor CAN you.
You are still rambling on about the other beliefs of the man who said this brilliant statement. You act as if since you're not a Trinitarian, no Trinitarian has EVER said ANYTHING that you agree with or that is scriptural truth. How lame, illogical, and childish.
He who makes is one, while he through whom the thing is made is another.
Absolute simplicity and logic at it's best!
So, who really cares if his very next statement was "Jesus is a unicorn"? We have the right to disagree with the nonsensical part of his words while adhering to the sensible ones, right? But just to make MY point abundantly clear:
Okay, Tertullian DID think that the Father and Son were different members of the same Godhead. Even so, he is STILL saying that only ONE of those members of the Godhead created, while things were created THROUGH the other member of the Godhead. See? He is STILL making MY point for me that ONE created, while the other was created THROUGH.
Now, lose the nonsensical part that the Son OF God is a member of the God he is the Son OF, (which would make Jesus the Son of himself), and you can see that Tertullian has made an excellent point.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2011,07:55) NO D, you didn't refute it, nor CAN you. You are still rambling on about the other beliefs of the man who said this brilliant statement. You act as if since you're not a Trinitarian, no Trinitarian has EVER said ANYTHING that you agree with or that is scriptural truth. How lame, illogical, and childish.
He who makes is one, while he through whom the thing is made is another.
Absolute simplicity and logic at it's best!
So, who really cares if his very next statement was "Jesus is a unicorn"? We have the right to disagree with the nonsensical part of his words while adhering to the sensible ones, right? But just to make MY point abundantly clear:
Okay, Tertullian DID think that the Father and Son were different members of the same Godhead. Even so, he is STILL saying that only ONE of those members of the Godhead created, while things were created THROUGH the other member of the Godhead. See? He is STILL making MY point for me that ONE created, while the other was created THROUGH.
Now, lose the nonsensical part that the Son OF God is a member of the God he is the Son OF, (which would make Jesus the Son of himself), and you can see that Tertullian has made an excellent point.
Lol Mike… oh gosh you humor me with your pathetic attempts…Lol im rambling on?
? says the man who keeps on mentioning Tertullian. Quote You act as if since you're not a Trinitarian, no Trinitarian has EVER said ANYTHING that you agree with or that is scriptural truth. How lame, illogical, and childish.
Thats Not what i Meant nor stated. What im saying is "what of it" or "so what" Tertullian made a opinion about his Trinity. I dont believe in that so what proof is that for me, when To me Tertullian doesnt matter?
In other words Tertullians words of opinion have no weight or value to me, espeaciauly when you very well know he was speaking of the Godhead.Lol you know what insanity is Mike? Doing the same thing again and again and hoping for a change.
Or just keep on repeating to yourself the insane notion that The one True God makes another just to create everythign else? lol what a lazy God of yours.so just keep on repeating your religious farse.. lol it wont come true.
Lol why would you use evidence that some guy used to try to prove that Jesus was a unicorn to prove that He was a Raccoon?
Doesnt make sense mike.. just sayinnnnn He was using that point to prove something else that is contrary to what you believe.Why?
Because the only reason you want to use this evidence is because you and Tertullian both agree that God and Jesus are seperate persons, yet Tertulian believes that tehy are both God while you dont. You see???Lol and you must understsand that these statements come from the same Guy who states thats the quote i stated in blue in my last post, and that Jesus is the sunray of the Sun and what not. Dont you see that the guy believes that Jesus is God yet trying to define them in seperate persons, and all in the same time contradicting his beliefs??
I already gave you my explaination and refutation.
lol so oooo you got more jokes for me or what?
It matters not who said it or what their religious beliefs were. The fact of the matter is that the statement itself cannot POSSIBLY be refuted because it is pure simple FACT.
He who makes is one while he through whom the thing is made is another.
Are you ready to discuss how Acts 4 also clearly teaches that Jesus is NOT our Creator?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2011,09:01) It matters not who said it or what their religious beliefs were. The fact of the matter is that the statement itself cannot POSSIBLY be refuted because it is pure simple FACT. He who makes is one while he through whom the thing is made is another.
Are you ready to discuss how Acts 4 also clearly teaches that Jesus is NOT our Creator?
lol Mike, how is it a FACT?
Is it a FACT because Tertullian said it?Lol, how is this a FACT?
So God Made one, and than made another who made ALL THINGS, including himself???
Yet all life is sustained by the Son???
Its easily refuted because the possession of All is given to the Son, for he is the Logos of God.
just becaus you "think" its unrefutable doesnt make it so.
more of your crazy lala land schemes
Are you ready to talk about Collasians and Hebrews where it spefically states that Jesus created all things???
and not only created, but all life is sustained by Jesus.And this is something that Paul and whoever wrote hebrews stated directly, VS something that Luke just repeated within his investigation for Theophilus.
What has more warrent? what paul said with his own hand or what Luke quoted from another?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2011,06:44) Quote (Ed J @ June 19 2011,11:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2011,03:45) Hi Pierre, That doesn't just go for Mary, the cross, and the Saints, etc, but for Jesus himself. God said that no one has seen His form, so don't worship ANYTHING with a form, whether it be celestial bodies or the form of a human.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,Do you know where that can be found?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,Didn't I just read where you said you could help US to find where certain scriptures are?
(Just kidding, only my little sister can tell you where every scripture is all the time! )You can find it in Deut 4, starting with verse 15.
Hi Mike,Very Good! …and yes, I did know where that verse was.
But I guess you figured that out by the wording of my question.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2011,01:36) Are you ready to talk about Collasians and Hebrews where it spefically states that Jesus created all things???
Sure. You go first. List ONE scripture that you think says Jesus created anything at all.After we verify whether or not that scripture really DOES say what you claim it does, it'll be my turn to talk about Acts 4.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2011,14:36) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2011,01:36) Are you ready to talk about Collasians and Hebrews where it spefically states that Jesus created all things???
Sure. You go first. List ONE scripture that you think says Jesus created anything at all.After we verify whether or not that scripture really DOES say what you claim it does, it'll be my turn to talk about Acts 4.
Mike apparently has comprehension problems. The Father whom Mike says is his God said that the Son laid the foundations of the earth and that the heavens are the work of "YOUR HANDS."KJ
No, He didn't. That verse is Paul speaking ABOUT the Father, and not Jesus.
And even if it wasn't, "laying foundations of the earth" is not "CREATING THE HEAVENS, THE EARTH, AND EVERYTHING IN THEM", is it?
We already know that Jesus was the master craftsman at his God's side in the beginning, right?
This is all laughable…
Do you both know that when you are feverishly involved in a discussion there are many points lost in translation: nothing to do with the film although there is this bit:
Quote Bob and Charlotte suffer both confusion and hilarity due to the cultural and language differences between themselves and the Japanese. As the relationship between Bob and Charlotte deepens, they come to the realization that their visits to Japan, and one another, must soon end. Or must they?
Who wants to be 'Bob' and who therefore is 'Charlotte'? I suggest Mike be 'Bob' as 'Bob is old, way past his Prime' and 'Charlotte' is 'young, still searching out the meaning of life'.Ok, just a little yoke (link)… Excuse the intrusion but two points appear to jump to mind here that should be taken into consideration:
1) Mike says (Said in the 'Begotten' Thread) that Jesus was not CREATED but is the direct SON OF GOD – but in this Thread he says that Jesus was PART OF THAT WHICH WAS CREATED… well, which was it?
2) If the emanation of God, in the being of the Son, makes the Son ALSO GOD, then EVERYTHING IS GOD because EVERYTHING emanates FROM GOD!
Can anyone yet understand that 'God' is HE who IS THE OWNER OF ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY.
Jesus cannot be 'God' because he does NOT OWN ALL P&A but is GIVEN it to HOLD for a period of time… This ONLY AFTER HE HAS BEEN MADE 'King' in HIS FATHER's Kingdom.This is admirably demonstrated by analogy with Pharoah and Joseph:
PHAROAH is ABSOLUTE RULER in EGYPT – He is 'God of EGYPT'.
Pharoah hands POWER AND AUTHORITY over to JOSEPH.Note that Scriptures does not miss a trick but goes on to state:
'EXCEPTING MY THRONE, EVERYTHING I HAVE IS YOURS TO COMMAND so that a man may not lift a foot, nor place a foot in MY KINGDOM without YOUR SAY SO'Why the mention of the Throne (The SEAT OF ABSOLUTE POWER)?
Joseph does not possess the THRONE of Pharoah – He is NEVER made PHAROAH – but he IS Ruler IN PHAROAH's kingdom.
How does that P&A manifest itself?
How is the SPIRIT of that P&A manifest itself BODILY?
In the FORM of the KING's SEAL/Signet Ring.
Whatever is SEALED with that Ring is AS GOOD AS THE FROM PHAROAH HIMSELF.
However, Joseph does not possess the Seal forever but only until a purpose is fulfilled and he HANDS that SEAL back to it's owner, PHAROAH!Scriptures Is not written for amusement but for teaching!
This analogy teaches that JESUS is never 'GOD ALMIGHTY' because he never occupies the THRONE OF GOD – but he is the HOLDER (Not OWNER) of the HOLY SPIRIT by which he may empower who he
he will (To lift a foot, or place a foot!)And just like Joseph, he eventually HANDS that P&A BACK TO IT's OWNER…
Can anyone understand this?
Oh, and another point:
Scriptures does NOT say, nor is there ANY attributation given to Jesus being 'Wisdom, the master craftsman, at God's side'.
This is often mis-used by those claiming Jesus 'Created the Heavens (plural) and the Earth' (The Universe, the VISIBLE, MATERIAL PHYSICAL WORLD), and backed up by a seemingly spurious verse stating that 'HE CREATED ALL THINGS AND BY HIM AND THROUGH HIM ALL THINGS ARE SUSTAINED'
Well, is it not ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that these things are at ODDS with each other?
In one place 'All things are CREATED THROUGH HIM (Jesus)'!
In another, they are created 'BY HIM' and are 'SUSTAINED BY HIM'!How can this be: Jesus was a mortal MAN for 33 years while on Earth.
Did a Mortal Man sustain the Universe yet needed to Pray to his God for the Power of the Holy Spirit because he 'COULD DO NOTHING BY HIMSELF'.And then he was DEAD for 3 days… Did the world end? (Well, a Chapter closed, anyway)
Who was 'Sustaining all things' while Jesus was DEAD? or indeed for the 33 years while Jesus was a mortal flesh and blood human being?Clearly, if it HAS TO BE, the 'Creating all things and Sustaining all things' can only be attributed to Jesus AFTER he was RISEN FROM THE DEAD and SEATED at the Right-Hand of his Father and God and handed (Does God have a literal 'Hand') Power and Authority so that ALL (?? Excepting the Throne) NEW THINGS are, indeed, CREATED AND SUSTAINED BY HIM – NOW – the NOW ETERNAL SON (For he could not have been ETERNAL if he was PREVIOUSLY DEAD!! 'But is NOW ALIVE FOR EVERMORE (or is it 'forever more'!)
David was 'made' (Ha ha, brought up in rank order, BEGOTTEN) 'SON of the King' when SAUL places him at his right-hand… Know your Jewish traditions to understand the significance of these things. Was David Saul's offspring? Or even: Offspring of the King?
How DOES a CRAFTSMAN become or demonstrate his CRAFTSMANSHIP without CREATING ANYTHING?
Mike claims vagariously that Jesus DID NOT CREATE ANYTHING – yet calls Jesus 'The Master Craftsman'?
Yet, states that 'All other things were created THROUGH HIM'
Yet states 'Nothing was created BY HIM'
Yet states 'All things were created by him and for him'
Yet states 'All things are created by him and sustained by him'
What gives, Mike? Do you just change you belief according to which argument you are in?
Quote (Istari @ July 11 2011,02:57) How DOES a CRAFTSMAN become or demonstrate his CRAFTSMANSHIP without CREATING ANYTHING? Mike claims vagariously that Jesus DID NOT CREATE ANYTHING – yet calls Jesus 'The Master Craftsman'?
Yet, states that 'All other things were created THROUGH HIM'
Yet states 'Nothing was created BY HIM'
Yet states 'All things were created by him and for him'
Yet states 'All things are created by him and sustained by him'
What gives, Mike? Do you just change you belief according to which argument you are in?
astariQuote Well, is it not ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that these things are at ODDS with each other? it is not because you do not understand the truth in scriptures that scriptures becomes not clear it does to the ones who look for truth but not for there own truth
Pierre
Oh dear oh dear … Terraricca just seems to have it in for Istari.
He just seems to follow Istari around and waits for him to post – then plops a big one in his way…
The Man does not even have anything to say except "You wrong – end of…! Anything you say is wrong – end of.. You don't know what you saying ..end of …"
Quote (Istari @ July 11 2011,09:32) Oh dear oh dear … Terraricca just seems to have it in for Istari. He just seems to follow Istari around and waits for him to post – then plops a big one in his way…
The Man does not even have anything to say except "You wrong – end of…! Anything you say is wrong – end of.. You don't know what you saying ..end of …"
istariQuote This is all laughable Quote (Istari @ July 10 2011,02:24) 1) Mike says (Said in the 'Begotten' Thread) that Jesus was not CREATED but is the direct SON OF GOD – but in this Thread he says that Jesus was PART OF THAT WHICH WAS CREATED… well, which was it?
What? Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, meaning he is the first thing God ever created.When have I ever said Jesus was not a part of the creation of his God?
Istari, do you have something short and to the point to add to this discussion? If not, then pipe down. You talk too much, dude.
Quote (Istari @ July 10 2011,09:32) Oh dear oh dear … Terraricca just seems to have it in for Istari. He just seems to follow Istari around and waits for him to post – then plops a big one in his way…
You've just described exactly what you do to ME! Why are you in this thread in the first place Wizard? Because you saw a reply from me?
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