Should members be tiled for avoidance?

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,19:40)

To All,
Its a debare fallacy to post a scripture and not give your interpretation of it. Why? you make ask,

Because your oppenent may use the same scripture posing that it means something else.
Therefore the debate is about interpretation and context.

Just posting scripture without any further emphasis of what you think it means is irresponsible.

you are right but some people do not care ,they would argue on plain words ,they have a spirit of confrontation and dispute in there mind.

so your words of wisdom are useless for some here,

Pierre

June 3, 2011 at 4:23 am#247739

kerwin

Participant

Quote (david @ June 02 2011,12:32)

Quote

There is NO scripture that states "God created alone through Jesus"

In fact if you wanted to be Scriptuarly Truthful you could have stated "God creates alone" and "all things were created though/by Jesus"

So your statement is just an example of your lame attempt to try to mix in scripture to make it fit your doctrine, and plus its a CONTRADICITION.

I find your logic interesting.

You concede that it is scripturally truthful to say that "God creates alone" and that "all things were created through Jesus," yet you believe we can not put those related ideas together.

I actually do not state that God created alone since he stated that there was no other God that created with him.

There are many that are not Gods as God is God.

Jesus state quite clearly that he does the works of God. In a like manner the angels of God also do the works of God. So did God create the universe through his angels?

June 3, 2011 at 6:28 am#247747

SimplyForgiven

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ June 03 2011,09:23)

Quote (david @ June 02 2011,12:32)

Quote

There is NO scripture that states "God created alone through Jesus"

In fact if you wanted to be Scriptuarly Truthful you could have stated "God creates alone" and "all things were created though/by Jesus"

So your statement is just an example of your lame attempt to try to mix in scripture to make it fit your doctrine, and plus its a CONTRADICITION.

I find your logic interesting.

You concede that it is scripturally truthful to say that "God creates alone" and that "all things were created through Jesus," yet you believe we can not put those related ideas together.

I actually do not state that God created alone since he stated that there was no other God that created with him.

There are many that are not Gods as God is God.

Jesus state quite clearly that he does the works of God. In a like manner the angels of God also do the works of God. So did God create the universe through his angels?

Kerwin,
To whom are you writing to?

And i find your point intresting which brings about some questions.

1.You stated that no other God created with him, (scripture please?)
Yet we know for a fact that Jesus did create, so than its either he is God or he is not. Than there isnt one god out of many.
2. yous stated There are many that are not Gods as God is God,
Exactly I agree with that.
3. So did God create the universe through his angels?
Scripture never speaks of Angels actualling creating anything.

But i did like your last point, we know that Jesus does exactly what God does.

June 3, 2011 at 6:33 am#247748

SimplyForgiven

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 03 2011,08:02)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,19:40)

To All,
Its a debare fallacy to post a scripture and not give your interpretation of it. Why? you make ask,

Because your oppenent may use the same scripture posing that it means something else.
Therefore the debate is about interpretation and context.

Just posting scripture without any further emphasis of what you think it means is irresponsible.

you are right but some people do not care ,they would argue on plain words ,they have a spirit of confrontation and dispute in there mind.

so your words of wisdom are useless for some here,

Pierre

Pierre,

Its Ironic that you agree with my "words of wisdom" because It was more directed towards you, and which you do typically post scripture without any clarity into what you think it means.

The things you state are strange becuase you do Confront as if you have a "spirit of confrontation" many times, and "dispute" in your mind.

So your right, my "words of wisdom" was utterly "useless" for you.

Again, Irony?

June 3, 2011 at 3:14 pm#247768

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 04 2011,00:33)

Quote (terraricca @ June 03 2011,08:02)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,19:40)

To All,
Its a debare fallacy to post a scripture and not give your interpretation of it. Why? you make ask,

Because your oppenent may use the same scripture posing that it means something else.
Therefore the debate is about interpretation and context.

Just posting scripture without any further emphasis of what you think it means is irresponsible.

you are right but some people do not care ,they would argue on plain words ,they have a spirit of confrontation and dispute in there mind.

so your words of wisdom are useless for some here,

Pierre

Pierre,

Its Ironic that you agree with my "words of wisdom" because It was more directed towards you, and which you do typically post scripture without any clarity into what you think it means.

The things you state are strange becuase you do Confront as if you have a "spirit of confrontation" many times, and "dispute" in your mind.

So your right, my "words of wisdom" was utterly "useless" for you.

Again, Irony?

thats the effect that truth as on the untruthfully,

Pierre

June 3, 2011 at 3:58 pm#247769

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 02 2011,17:48)

Quote

I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and fire with the evidence of speaking in tongues and I know in whom I have believed. It is his Spirit within me that shows me these things!

like i say the spirit of the world not of God ,you are a dreamer NOT OF GOD this i am sure of.

you could not understand scriptures so it is useless to me to make you see what you do not want to see,your religion is your god not the truth of scriptures.

this is how we can see the righteous from the fake and the deceivers.even it is by ignorance .

Pierre

Peirre

You are not my judge.

June 3, 2011 at 4:05 pm#247770

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,01:33)

Quote (terraricca @ June 03 2011,08:02)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,19:40)

To All,
Its a debare fallacy to post a scripture and not give your interpretation of it. Why? you make ask,

Because your oppenent may use the same scripture posing that it means something else.
Therefore the debate is about interpretation and context.

Just posting scripture without any further emphasis of what you think it means is irresponsible.

you are right but some people do not care ,they would argue on plain words ,they have a spirit of confrontation and dispute in there mind.

so your words of wisdom are useless for some here,

Pierre

Pierre,

Its Ironic that you agree with my "words of wisdom" because It was more directed towards you, and which you do typically post scripture without any clarity into what you think it means.

The things you state are strange becuase you do Confront as if you have a "spirit of confrontation" many times, and "dispute" in your mind.

So your right, my "words of wisdom" was utterly "useless" for you.

Again, Irony?

Hi Dennison

Good points. Peirre never talks to me unless he is critical.

I guess he thinks that because I am a Trini that everything I say is false. But truth is truth no matter who it comes through.

Some people need to grow up. What are they even doing here if all they have to contribute is cheer leading for those they agree with and patronizing those whom they disagree with?

Blessings Keith

June 3, 2011 at 6:30 pm#247777

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2011,09:58)

Quote (terraricca @ June 02 2011,17:48)

Quote

I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and fire with the evidence of speaking in tongues and I know in whom I have believed. It is his Spirit within me that shows me these things!

like i say the spirit of the world not of God ,you are a dreamer NOT OF GOD this i am sure of.

you could not understand scriptures so it is useless to me to make you see what you do not want to see,your religion is your god not the truth of scriptures.

this is how we can see the righteous from the fake and the deceivers.even it is by ignorance .

Pierre

Peirre

You are not my judge.

you are absolutly right ,but your words are

Pierre

June 3, 2011 at 7:21 pm#247782

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 03 2011,13:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2011,09:58)

Quote (terraricca @ June 02 2011,17:48)

Quote

I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and fire with the evidence of speaking in tongues and I know in whom I have believed. It is his Spirit within me that shows me these things!

like i say the spirit of the world not of God ,you are a dreamer NOT OF GOD this i am sure of.

you could not understand scriptures so it is useless to me to make you see what you do not want to see,your religion is your god not the truth of scriptures.

this is how we can see the righteous from the fake and the deceivers.even it is by ignorance .

Pierre

Peirre

You are not my judge.

you are absolutly right ,but your words are

Pierre

Peirre

You should think about that before you spout out accusations against ones person with a mean Spirit.

Attack the doctrine if you like but not the person. Inferring people are "dreamers", "decieving" and "ignorant" without giving any scriptural reason for not accepting their teaching seems a little Hypocritical and cowardess to me.

June 3, 2011 at 7:53 pm#247786

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2011,13:21)

Quote (terraricca @ June 03 2011,13:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2011,09:58)

Quote (terraricca @ June 02 2011,17:48)

Quote

I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and fire with the evidence of speaking in tongues and I know in whom I have believed. It is his Spirit within me that shows me these things!

like i say the spirit of the world not of God ,you are a dreamer NOT OF GOD this i am sure of.

you could not understand scriptures so it is useless to me to make you see what you do not want to see,your religion is your god not the truth of scriptures.

this is how we can see the righteous from the fake and the deceivers.even it is by ignorance .

Pierre

Peirre

You are not my judge.

you are absolutly right ,but your words are

Pierre

Peirre

You should think about that before you spout out accusations against ones person with a mean Spirit.

if i eat mead i am a mead eater,if i only eat vegetables ,i am a vegetarian,if i work with lumber i am a carpenter,if i lie i would be a liar,if i kill ,i would be a murderer,if i steal ,i would be a thief,

if i tell stories i am a dreamer,if i say that i posses qualities that are not reflected in my words then what ?hem I ?

to be honnest I like you but when you defend your trinity i do not,

and get one thing strait ,if your doctrine is wrong ,how would it that not all the other words would wrongly twisted to justify the doctrine,

and wen you are right I will support that I did it before you know that.
it is the man that as to be saved not his doctrine.
Pierre

June 3, 2011 at 7:56 pm#247787

Participant

Peirre

Of course just justify your actions!

June 3, 2011 at 8:18 pm#247789

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2011,13:56)

Peirre

Of course just justify your actions!

June 4, 2011 at 2:01 am#247798

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ June 01 2011,22:17)

You wrote:

Quote

Where is any being called a "false god" in scripture, Kerwin?

I was not speaking of scripture.

Well if we're not speaking of scripture, then what are we doing here?

Kerwin, I have one main point that I want EVERYONE here to understand: It is "politically correct" and commonly believed that there is only one god, period. THIS UNDERSTANDING IS SIMPLY NOT SCRIPTURAL.

Of course no other god is "God" as Jehovah is. And how do we know this? Because Jehovah is the "God OF gods". Jehovah is the "Most High God". Jehovah is "God Almighty". Jehovah is the One who PRESIDES over the assembly of gods, and passes judgement upon the other gods. But Kerwin, every one of these things tell us that there ARE other gods. Not one of those scriptural facts would make any sense if there were no other gods, right?

Kerwin, Keith and Dennison, could you answer a couple of questions?

1. Do you understand that Satan IS Beelzebub, who WAS the real live "god of Ekron"?

2. Do you understand that when people (or YHWH) referred to "the god of Ekron", they were NOT referring to an idol?

3. Do you understand that not ONCE in scripture is Satan hinted to be a "false god" or a "so-called god"?

4. Do you understand that Satan is a very powerful being who has influence and sway over the lives of people and nature itself?

5. Do you understand that the definition of "god" from Webster is, "“any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature”? Does that not describe EXACTLY what Satan is?

I want you all to understand very clearly that what I'm "preaching" here is 100% scriptural. I want you to understand that there ARE other gods besides Jehovah. Once you understand this, you will understand that Paul wasn't lying when he said there are gods many and lords many, whether in heaven or on earth. And once you understand that there ARE "gods many", you will have the required information to understand that Jehovah, Satan and Jesus are all literally gods. Are they on the same level? Of course not. Jehovah is the God Most High and the Creator OF all of the other gods. That puts Him on a level all to Himself. Jesus is also on a level all to himself because he was the first being ever created by God, the ONLY one created DIRECTLY by God, the one THROUGH whom God created all other things, and the one who holds the powerful and esteemed position of being at God's right hand.

I'm quite sure there are other levels, with Satan and Michael being under Jesus but above most others………but scripture doesn't explicitely say. We DO know that Satan is the "Prince" and "Ruler" of the demons, which implies he is on a higher level than them. And we know that Michael is one of the Prince angels and an "Archangel", which means "Ruler Angel". But we don't many more specifics besides those.

Suffice to say that Jehovah is above ALL of the gods. Jesus is presumably over Satan and the others by class alone, although that claim is never made in scripture, and believing this makes one wonder why Jesus' God has to place his enemies at his feet in order for Jesus to destroy them. This makes me undecided if the BEING of Jesus is naturally more powerful than his enemies, or if it's only because his God has recently given him an unprecedented amount of power. Ie: Could Jesus kick Satan's butt WITHOUT God placing Satan at his feet first? Has he ALWAYS been able to kick Satan's butt? If so, why then does God have to place Satan at Jesus' feet before Jesus can destroy his kingdom? (These are just some questions that make me think………)

Anyway, I've listed 5 "setup questions" above. But the only question I really want answered by you guys is this:

Is there ANY scriptural reason at all to think Satan is a "false god", a "so-called god" or "no god at all"? If so, then please show me the scripture that teaches one of these things.

The bottom line is that the vast majority of Christianity believe there to LITERALLY be only one god, period. This belief is 100% unscriptural, and stems from two main problems:

1. We have been taught since we were young that there literally is only one god, and it's hard to "unteach" yourself something that is so much a part of who you are.

2. The "Jesus is God" people cannot afford to lose the flimsy foothold they think they have when they say, "Well, if there really IS only ONE god, and Jesus IS called 'god', then Jesus must BE that ONE god."

Reason #1 is most likely the result of reason #2. We have all been taught this "one literal god" theory because the "Jesus is God" people don't want to deal with the fact that, like Satan, Jesus is also "a god" who is not "THE God". Unfortunately for all of us who have bought into this lie from our youth, it is completely unscriptural, and we have to reform our understanding around the scriptures.

peace,
mike

June 4, 2011 at 2:32 am#247799

Blocked

Quote (david @ June 02 2011,00:32)

Quote

There is NO scripture that states "God created alone through Jesus"

In fact if you wanted to be Scriptuarly Truthful you could have stated "God creates alone" and "all things were created though/by Jesus"

So your statement is just an example of your lame attempt to try to mix in scripture to make it fit your doctrine, and plus its a CONTRADICITION.

I find your logic interesting.

You concede that it is scripturally truthful to say that "God creates alone" and that "all things were created through Jesus," yet you believe we can not put those related ideas together.

Even Tertullian, the man credited with starting the trinity, agrees that the one from whom all things are is different than the one through whom all things are.

Do you agree D?

June 4, 2011 at 2:38 am#247801

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2011,11:47)

You anti-Jesus is God crowd create these logical fallacies with the terms "all things come through" or "all things were created through" as if because something comes through something that it is not coming "FROM" the one it is coming through.

And of course you deny clear scripture that says Jesus by his own hands created the heavens and the earth. Heb 1:10

Keith,

All things are FROM God, and all things are THROUGH Jesus. Simple, really.

Heb 1:10 doesn't say Jesus created anything at all, and most likely doesn't refer to Jesus at all. But that is for another discussion.

Keith, God alone created you THROUGH the creatures of your parents. Deal with it.

mike

June 4, 2011 at 5:26 am#247811

kerwin

Participant

Dennison,

I quoted your points I am responding to.

Quote

To whom are you writing to?

I was writing to David specifically but I consider it a public conversation that anyone can join.

To clarify my position I don’t believe God necessary created the universe alone as I believe angels, like man are just tools in his hands to accomplish his goals even as men founded the city of Jerusalem and yet it was God who stated “Thou art built” and though Solomon supervised the founding of the Temple it was God who declared “Thou art founded”, Isaiah 44:28.

Quote

1.You stated that no other God created with him, (scripture please?)

Quote

Isaiah 44(Young's Literal Translation (YLT))

24Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: `I [am] Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth — who [is] with Me?

Quote

Yet we know for a fact that Jesus did create, so than its either he is God or he is not.

I do not believe that Jesus was with God when God created the universe as that is and was not the purpose of Jesus. The purpose of Jesus is to the Leader and Perfecter of the New Covenant. He is the too who through and by the new man is created like God in true holiness and righteousness.

Quote

Than there isn’t one god out of many.

It depends on what you mean by “god”. There is only one God as Jehovah is God.

Mike actually states that “Of course no other god is "God" as Jehovah is”. So when I state God I mean a God as Jehovah is God. He also admits the other gods are not worthy of worship. To me it sounds like is making an argument over words unless he wants to convince others that demons and angels exist and are corruptly or erroneously worshipped by some. I simply see nothing I disagree with in what he states when I examine what he actually believes on the matter.

Quote

Scripture never speaks of Angels actually creating anything.

I agree so it is speculation to say that God used them or that he did not. There is some scripture that may be hinting at them being involved but Scripture does state the Spirit of God was there and so it may be the Spirit instead of angels those scriptures are effected by.

June 4, 2011 at 4:49 pm#247833

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2011,21:38)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2011,11:47)

And of course you deny clear scripture that says Jesus by his own hands created the heavens and the earth. Heb 1:10

Keith,

All things are FROM God, and all things are THROUGH Jesus. Simple, really.

Hi Mike

Well when you can explain how logically something comes through someone but is not coming from that someone you may have a point.

The fact is Mike even if you don't believe that Jesus is God then you must believe that he is currently fully acting out the role of God.

All things are in Jesus hands Mike therefore anything that comes from God comes from him and his hands and in fact by Jesus all things consist and are upheld by the word of "his" power. Col 1:17 – Heb 1:3

Rom 11:36 tells us God is the "source", the "agent" and the "goal". Lo and behold Jesus is also the same.

Mike is Jesus the "source" of your life?

It is a simple yes or no question?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2011,21:38)

Heb 1:10 doesn't say Jesus created anything at all, and most likely doesn't refer to Jesus at all. But that is for another discussion.

So you say which flys in the face of the cream of Greek Scholarship.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2011,21:38)

Keith, God alone created you THROUGH the creatures of your parents. Deal with it.

When you can prove that Mary had anything to do with our creation other than being the raw material which God used to create you and me you might have a point.

Besides is there a scripture that says "God created you and me through our parents"? No, but there are scriptures that says all things were created by Jesus and for him and that without him nothing came in to existence.

Did Mary breath into you the breath of life? Does your mother sustain your life.

Well the scriptures tells us Jesus is our life and without him the creation would not exist. When Jesus breathed on the disciples they recieved the Holy Spirit and at that point I believe they were born again or became a "new creation" or a "new man". Jesus is our creator.

June 4, 2011 at 4:56 pm#247834

Participant

BTW Mike

You didn't address this point as well as others…

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but ”IF YE **THROUGH (dia)** THE SPIRIT” do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8:13

Mike, does the Holy Spirit do the work of destroying the deeds of the flesh or does the word (dia) “through” mean the Holy Spirit didn’t do the work?

June 4, 2011 at 5:44 pm#247840