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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2011,14:22) Quote (terraricca @ June 01 2011,15:11)
WJread the scripture very slowly and see what it says nothing was created without Jesus this is absolutely true ,Jesus was created by the father .
Scripture please!First you say…
…"nothing was created without Jesus this is absolutely true"…
Then you say…
"Jesus was created by the father".
Sounds like double talk to me.
WJ
WJand you claim that you have the holy spirit ,use your hammer on your head ,maybe you get some sence in it.
can you prove me wrong with all the scriptural knowledge you have and understand ?
if yes show it to me ;
Pierre
Peirre
I don't have to prove anything. You just contradicted yourself! Just sayin!
Besides I asked you first for scripture to prove Jesus is a created being. I see you have none but only your assumptions!
WJ
Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2011,23:12) As for those called false gods working miracles………..
Where is any being called a "false god" in scripture, Kerwin?When Jehovah spoke about the god of Ekron, did He mention anything about Satan being "false"? To the contrary, He sarcastically asked if it was because there was no GOD in Israel that Ahaziah was inquiring of a different GOD.
When Moses spoke of the gods of Egypt, did he mention that they were "false gods"?
Do you see what I'm getting at, Kerwin? It is commonly believed and accepted nowadays that there is THE God, and then there are "false gods" who aren't gods at all. And though that view is politically correct for the 21st century, it is very unscriptural.
I challenge you to show me one single implication in scripture that Satan is "false", a "false god" or "not a god at all".
I extend that challenge to Dagon, Molech, Jesus, and the gods of Egypt that Moses spoke about. Because these are all called gods in scripture, right?
Also, being a god has nothing at all to do with being righteous or unrighteous. Same as being a human has nothing to do with those two things. I don't think you understand that.
peace,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2011,09:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,20:19) But I DO know that all things were created BY God alone, THROUGH Jesus, because scripture DOES tell us that part.
Hi AllDoes anyone see the contradiction?
I would like to see him teach this in a Sunday school class.
Does Mike know what the word "Alone" means?
I only go by what the scriptures teach, Keith. Who ALONE created you, Keith? And who did that single Creator create you THROUGH? The only "contradiction" is the one you purposely try to convey to further your doctrine. But when all is said and done, my statement "All things were created by God alone, through Jesus" is EXACTLY scriptural. And for YOU to imply it isn't shows that your god is a man-made doctrine, and not the God of the scriptures.For us believers of scripture, there is but one God, THE FATHER. For you there is the "Godhead of Confusion".
Quote (terraricca @ June 01 2011,15:57) WJ use your hammer on your head ,maybe you get some sence in it.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2011,09:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,19:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2011,10:23) Good Post Dennison! WJ
Really Keith? Let's see how "good" it is, shall we?
Hi DennisonIt is still a good post!
WJ
And is it because you are slightly smarter and more reserved than the youngster that YOU haven't commented about Beelzebub yet?
Face it boys, even though it is decidedly unpopular, and goes against everything we've been taught since we were children, the fact is that there are "gods many and lords many" in the scriptures. And not one of those BEINGS is ever called a "false god" or a "so-called god" in the actual scriptures.
These thoughts were added in by men at later times, who apparently either didn't read about the god of Ekron, or were so anxious to claim, "Well, if there literally IS only ONE god in scripture, and Jesus IS a god, then he must be THAT god", that they ignored the god of Ekron completely. Either way, they were mistaken, as I've CLEARLY showed you all using the very words of scripture.
So although it might be unpopular and undesirable to us, the SCRIPTURAL FACT of the matter is that Paul was right – there ARE many gods and many lords, whether in heaven or on earth. Yet for us true believers of scripture, there is but one we need to concern ourselves with – THE FATHER. (Not "the Father/Son/Spirit combo God")
peace,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2011,16:35) Peirre I don't have to prove anything. You just contradicted yourself! Just sayin!
Besides I asked you first for scripture to prove Jesus is a created being. I see you have none but only your assumptions!
WJ
WJCol 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold togetherI know that you know those scriptures but you deny them this is why you do not show the truth as you should be ,
and you are guided by the holy spirit let me luff .
Pierre
Mike Boll,
You wrote:
Quote Where is any being called a "false god" in scripture, Kerwin? I was not speaking of scripture. I was speaking of those that called them “false gods” . I was not stating they are not gods though they are not God as Jehovah is God. You have already admitted they are not God as Jehovah is God. I see no reason to argue over words.
What I was actually pointing out to you is that God gives the priests of those that called both demons and lies in scripture, miracles powers. He also gave the priests that opposed Moses in Egypt those same miracles powers in order to make is glory plain for all to see. Thus those you call gods would be powerless except that God gives them power in order for them to further his good and righteous plan for humanity.
Quote Also, being a god has nothing at all to do with being righteous or unrighteous. Same as being a human has nothing to do with those two things. I don't think you understand that. I assume you do realize those that have a divine nature are called gods. So why do you have trouble understanding why those that partake of that divine nature are called gods.
Never the less I was pointing out that those that receive the spirit are called gods because they are a royal priesthood. I was assuming you understand that priests are called gods.
A passage of scripture that relates to both point is :
Quote Mark 8:33(King James Version ) 33But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
In this verse Jesus calls Peter Satan. Does that mean Peter is Satan?
In the same way the gods of other nations can be called demons and gods even if they are not demons and gods and those that do the things of God can be called gods.
Quote (terraricca @ June 01 2011,21:05) WJ and D why is it that you do not understand that God has a created being and called him his son and use him to create administrate a total project that is unfolding as the ages passes,
did you not read in scriptures that men can not see ,meet,touch God the father and live,you forgot to ask yourself can the God that created the universe be lower in power and brightness than the thing he created,no he is not.
for this reason and the love he shares with all his creation,
he create a being the first and make him known to us as his son and use the lower creation to create yet a lower creation and so on,untill men and animal and microbes are created,
so all is created from the very big to the very small things that the eyes can nor see so big and the very small that the eyes can not see it ,
his the president in a country does all things? he does bearly nothing than approve the orders,so
all comes to effect in and with Gods will.not the son or anybody else.
and Mike do not contradict himself it is you ho do not understand God will.
Pierre
Pierre,If God is indeed Almighty than he is not bound by any set limitation.
God can do anything, did you forget that?Everything you stated is not found in scriptures.
God is not like a President at all. so thats nonsense.
A President only is capable of doing what any other Human can do in the same position.But we are not talking about what a office can do but more about Gods might.
And God whom is Almighty can do all things!
Can The Almighty God of this universe do all things if he merely willed to?
You have just contradicted your self, and you havent proven why or how Mike hasnt contradicted himself.
so your just stating nonsense.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2011,03:35) Peirre I don't have to prove anything. You just contradicted yourself! Just sayin!
Besides I asked you first for scripture to prove Jesus is a created being. I see you have none but only your assumptions!
WJ
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Im sorry that was funny!hahahahahaha…..
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 02 2011,04:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2011,09:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,20:19) But I DO know that all things were created BY God alone, THROUGH Jesus, because scripture DOES tell us that part.
Hi AllDoes anyone see the contradiction?
I would like to see him teach this in a Sunday school class.
Does Mike know what the word "Alone" means?
I only go by what the scriptures teach, Keith. Who ALONE created you, Keith? And who did that single Creator create you THROUGH? The only "contradiction" is the one you purposely try to convey to further your doctrine. But when all is said and done, my statement "All things were created by God alone, through Jesus" is EXACTLY scriptural. And for YOU to imply it isn't shows that your god is a man-made doctrine, and not the God of the scriptures.For us believers of scripture, there is but one God, THE FATHER. For you there is the "Godhead of Confusion".
Mike, ( I realized you ignored my last statements)You do realize that you made a statement that had "references" to scriptures but the statement itself is not scriptural.
There is NO scripture that states "God created alone through Jesus"
In fact if you wanted to be Scriptuarly Truthful you could have stated "God creates alone" and "all things were created though/by Jesus"
So your statement is just an example of your lame attempt to try to mix in scripture to make it fit your doctrine, and plus its a CONTRADICITION.
So what CONFUSION you are bringing to the table mike.
IT doesnt make any gosh darn sense to defend that idea.You are the "Godhead of Confusion"
Quote (kerwin @ June 02 2011,09:17) Quote Mark 8:33(King James Version ) 33But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
In this verse Jesus calls Peter Satan. Does that mean Peter is Satan?
In the same way the gods of other nations can be called demons and gods even if they are not demons and gods and those that do the things of God can be called gods.
Kerwin,That is an awesome point! lol Nicely put.
That should end all the nonsense that Mike has been talking about.Quote There is NO scripture that states "God created alone through Jesus" In fact if you wanted to be Scriptuarly Truthful you could have stated "God creates alone" and "all things were created though/by Jesus"
So your statement is just an example of your lame attempt to try to mix in scripture to make it fit your doctrine, and plus its a CONTRADICITION.
I find your logic interesting.
You concede that it is scripturally truthful to say that "God creates alone" and that "all things were created through Jesus," yet you believe we can not put those related ideas together.
Quote (david @ June 02 2011,11:32) Quote There is NO scripture that states "God created alone through Jesus" In fact if you wanted to be Scriptuarly Truthful you could have stated "God creates alone" and "all things were created though/by Jesus"
So your statement is just an example of your lame attempt to try to mix in scripture to make it fit your doctrine, and plus its a CONTRADICITION.
I find your logic interesting.
You concede that it is scripturally truthful to say that "God creates alone" and that "all things were created through Jesus," yet you believe we can not put those related ideas together.
Awwww David,I didnt foget about you, I have been meaning to respond to your comments in the other thread but havent found the time to.
David, Its Truthful to make those statements seperatly because each holds its own context and each holds its own interpretation and meaning. Espeacily noting that the Idea that God created alone started in the OT, and until later in the NT the idea of Jesus creating was brought into play.
So lets sit and think, If we stated that "God created alone through Jesus" is scriptural than it would be a false information and a contradiction.
1. There is no such scripture.
2. Its a false implication that scriputures doesnt state
3. Its suspicous
4. Its actually twisting and fixing scripture to make it say what you want it to say.You must realize the bible is dangerous when someone decides to pick and choose what to put together.
But if we are going to be scripturally honest, than lets stick to what Scirpture states. "God created alone" "everyhing was created by Him (Christ Jesus)"
Now thats scripaturally sound.
You can believe whatever you want David, and you can say whatever you want, but its false to say that this idea is written in scripture when its not.
And thats what Mike claimed, that its sciptural when its not.
Quote (terraricca @ June 01 2011,18:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2011,16:35) Peirre I don't have to prove anything. You just contradicted yourself! Just sayin!
Besides I asked you first for scripture to prove Jesus is a created being. I see you have none but only your assumptions!
WJ
WJCol 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold togetherI know that you know those scriptures but you deny them this is why you do not show the truth as you should be ,
and you are guided by the holy spirit let me luff .
Pierre
PeirreI don't see the words "Jesus was created" in those scriptures.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2011,09:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,20:19) But I DO know that all things were created BY God alone, THROUGH Jesus, because scripture DOES tell us that part.
Hi AllDoes anyone see the contradiction?
I would like to see him teach this in a Sunday school class.
Does Mike know what the word "Alone" means?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,18:28)
I only go by what the scriptures teach, Keith.
That’s funny, because that is what everyone here claims.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,18:28) Who ALONE created you, Keith? And who did that single Creator create you THROUGH?
I was created through God himself….For from him and through (dia) him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. Rom 11:36
Besides the fact that the word “dia” is used by Paul to say “by or through” God are all things, the same word used for Jesus in John 1:3 and Col 1:16, 17, Rom 11:36 tells us that God is the “Source”, the “agent” and the “Goal”.
AT Robertson states…
Of him (ex autou), through him (di autou), unto him (ei auton). By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the Source (ex), the Agent (di), the Goal (ei). For ever (ei tou aiwna). "For the ages." Alford terms this doxology in verses Romans 33-36 "the sublimest apostrophe existing even in the pages of inspiration itself."
It is a straw man argument that states because all things comes through or by Jesus is proof that he is not God when in fact scripturally it is proof that he is God. The fallacious argument about the word “Dia” when applied to Jesus means he is not the creator is ridiculous.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but ”IF YE **THROUGH (dia)** THE SPIRIT” do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8:13
Mike, does the Holy Spirit do the work of destroying the deeds of the flesh or does the word (dia) “through” mean the Holy Spirit didn’t do the work?
You anti-Jesus is God crowd create these logical fallacies with the terms "all things come through" or "all things were created through" as if because something comes through something that it is not coming "FROM" the one it is coming through.
And of course you deny clear scripture that says Jesus by his own hands created the heavens and the earth. Heb 1:10
The same Jesus that said he and the Fathers hands are one! John 10
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,18:28) The only "contradiction" is the one you purposely try to convey to further your doctrine.
LOL Mike! It is you that claims God used a created being to create all things through when he clearly said…This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, “stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF”, laying out the earth. “Who was with me? Isa 44:24 NWT
Do you think your buddies the NWT paraphrasers thought about this scripture when they say “Jehovah created all things through a created god”?
Jehovah says “By myself” I stretched out the heavens laying out the earth and “WHO WAS WITH ME”. There is only one way to reconcile this and that is God is a plural being and since the scriptures are clear that…
All things came into being through (dia) Him, and “apart from Him nothing (heis) came into being that has come into being. John 1:3
The Greek word for “nothing” is (heis) which is the Greek numerical number for “one”. In other words “Not one thing came into being that has come into being” without Jesus. We can say the same about the Father, “Not one thing came into being that has come into being” without the Father and scripturally we can say that “all things are “through” (dia) the Father.
Blessings WJ
Hi Mike
So you see Mike the contradiction is with your doctrine for you say God through a created god created all things which is diabolically opposed to the Hebrew Scriptures. But we say “One God” created all things by and through himself because the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are “One God”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,18:28) But when all is said and done, my statement "All things were created by God alone, through Jesus" is EXACTLY scriptural.
But that is not scriptural as Dennison has pointed out to you that your statement is not found in scriptures and in fact makes no sense."All things were created by GOD ALONE, through Jesus" is EXACTLY scriptural”
God ALONE and “through Jesus” are contradictory.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,18:28) And for YOU to imply it isn't shows that your god is a man-made doctrine, and not the God of the scriptures.
HA HA Mike, your doctrine is straight out of your own head and highly influenced by Watchtower. Your doctrine doesn’t take the clear meaning of words “literally”, heck you have even said yourself…Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:49) No Keith, it is YOU who has "lost the debate" by insisting "only true God" must be taken literally.
It seems to be a pattern with you Mike that when scripture disagrees with your doctrine then it must not be literal.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,18:28)
For us believers of scripture, there is but one God, THE FATHER. For you there is the "Godhead of Confusion".
Of course it is confusing to you Mike because it seems you do not have the “Spirit of wisdom and revelation”. You solely depend on your own ability to interpret the scriptures the way you see it. Your sola-scriptura attitude toward the scriptures is dangerous and according to the scriptures themselves we need more than just a Bible and our own logic to grow in Gods grace and knowledge. In fact the Bible teaches us that we cannot know these things apart from the Holy Spirit and the gifts that are given to the church for the maturing of the saints. Jesus said “Go and make disciples” but according to you all anyone needs is a Bible and their own human carnal logic. So instead of making disciples through teaching and training, just give them a Bible and let them figure it out. Wake up man. You are all alone, but if you are a true follower of Christ then you do it the Bible way and not Mike’s way.I pray the Spirit of God will open your eyes to see the truth that the “foot cannot say to the hand” I don’t need thee!
Blessings Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2011,08:59) Quote (terraricca @ June 01 2011,18:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2011,16:35) Peirre I don't have to prove anything. You just contradicted yourself! Just sayin!
Besides I asked you first for scripture to prove Jesus is a created being. I see you have none but only your assumptions!
WJ
WJCol 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold togetherI know that you know those scriptures but you deny them this is why you do not show the truth as you should be ,
and you are guided by the holy spirit let me luff .
Pierre
PeirreI don't see the words "Jesus was created" in those scriptures.
WJ
WJwere does it say that God is three people ,and that one of them comes to earth to die,and that one of them is climbing in the one that comes to earth ,and that the one who stay in heaven is waiting so that it all unfold to what no one knows
the trinity word is not in scriptures but invented by men of the world not of God,
any one believing in the trinity is of the world not of God ,
you maybe guided by a spirit but i know it is not the holy spirit of truth of God.
the game you play will destroy you,
Pierre
Peirre
Is that all you have is accusations about how I am wrong and boastings about how you are right?
When are you going to defend your beliefs with scripture?
I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and fire with the evidence of speaking in tongues and I know in whom I have believed. It is his Spirit within me that shows me these things!
I hope you can say the same!
WJ
WJ
Quote I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and fire with the evidence of speaking in tongues and I know in whom I have believed. It is his Spirit within me that shows me these things! like i say the spirit of the world not of God ,you are a dreamer NOT OF GOD this i am sure of.
you could not understand scriptures so it is useless to me to make you see what you do not want to see,your religion is your god not the truth of scriptures.
this is how we can see the righteous from the fake and the deceivers.even it is by ignorance .
Pierre
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