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Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,10:15) Now to T8, When Jesus says that the devil was their father, what do you think that means? Does the devil actually through some sort of procreative act have children?
The fact is to say that someone is a Father or son in a spiritual sense is to show alliance and Love.
God is our Guardian he is not a Man or a Woman where He has a certain gender. God is our protector as expressed in Arabic as Wali and where you say Abba in Arabic the word is Rabb which is a larger sense of that word.
Those that take on his nature and/or character.e.g., Satan is THE Devil. He is identified as the devil.
devils are those beings that are like him.
a devil can be anyone who has the Devil's nature and/or character.Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 28 2009,08:10) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2009,21:01) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2009,19:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2009,16:48) Bo,
Hi… think that you said once that all people are children of God. So what is the need for God to adopt us if we are already His children?Just wondering,
Kathi
Notice when the word adoption is used it is used towards the gentiles. You will never see that in reference to a Jew because they believed all of Israel is the Son of God but keep in mind Adam was called the Son of God and if he was the Child of God ALL MANKIND is the CHILD of God.You see words like "son" "adoption" "Father"…etc and view them as literal meanings but these are relative meanings.
God doesn't need to adopt what He already owns
Yes we are children of God (the offspring of God). But we are separated from God by our fallen nature and some even take on the nature of the Devil himself.God offers us to partake of divine nature.
Yet not to partake in it but to return to it thus the meaning of repent.Just like the prodigal son who went and lost his way squandering what was given to him, his return was a joy to his Father and their was no adoption although the son was ready to be the lowliest of servants at the time but the Father was overjoyed with the return of this son of his.
So, no adoption but it was said so to the gentiles because of the culture
I don't think we are born partaking in divine nature BD. We are born in sinful flesh and babies onward are very much dictated to by the flesh.It is a choice as to whether we will partake of divine nature or not.
We are indeed adopted. The Jews were God's chosen people, they are naturally part of the tree that God planted long ago. We are certainly adopted/grafted into that tree.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 30 2009,10:42) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,00:58) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 29 2009,09:29) Ron,
I agree for the most part, this is from my journal on a study I did on the word Aion (eternal):
Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever.However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed” Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity
But what about the wicked who seem to prosper until death, where is the justice of God. Scriptures support that God will “balance the books” at resurrection. I believe it is God’s way to recompense, it would be unfair for the wicked to have prospered without ever having paid the price I believe it is God’s way to give justice to those who have suffered by exacting a proportional payment from the wicked
As to an argument that if punishment is not eternal then why would life be eternal? This would be valid if aion was the only word that could denote endless duration however scriptures also use other words to describe unending life; such as aphtharsia (incorruptible), athanasian (hath immortality), akataluton (imperishable), aphtharto (immortal)
This single misinterpretation has done more to dissuade many by impugning the character of God as one who demands unending torment not only the wicked, but the grandma who never heard of Jesus, this is inconsistent with the character of God.
At the very least the fact that there remains debate on the certainty of the proper translation gives reason to at least question it. And while the traditional interpretation is possible, the alternative seems more in line with the character of God
In judgment the wicked are resurrected, they will see what it is that they have truly lost, they will suffer 'elohims righteous fire which will literally destroy them (the second death) and this is Aion.My opinion.
Ron,
I agree except I believe the "burning up" will last in duration to the extent that one will have "paid" for their sins. Remember it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorra, indicating levels of punishment.My opinion – Wm
Good point seekingtruth.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 01 2009,05:17) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 30 2009,16:39) bodhitharta,
And how long does that punishment last?
I would like to say forever but I am still researching that as it may be imposed in various degrees including forever. I will study it a little more and give an opinion(with scriptures backing up the findings, I will be using both sources that I use) Get back to you soon.
Ignoring the Koran, scriptures on this subject have been compiled into this writing. You may be interested in reading it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2009,08:21) KM,
So they say.
Why does a MOON represent Islam?
Nick, they dont bow down and worship thier cresent moon! Or the moon, or anything other than the God who created the heavens and the earth.I wouldnt judge a religeon based on a symbol. If my memory recalls, the cresent moon goes right back in the old testament to represent the Arabs in general.
I will look into that though
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 02 2009,09:03) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 01 2009,21:43) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 01 2009,05:17) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 30 2009,16:39) bodhitharta,
And how long does that punishment last?
I would like to say forever but I am still researching that as it may be imposed in various degrees including forever. I will study it a little more and give an opinion(with scriptures backing up the findings, I will be using both sources that I use) Get back to you soon.
According to scripture, the wicked shall be destroyed. They will perish.John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.2 Peter 2:12
But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.2 Thessalonians 2:10
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:9-11This is not to disagree with your position T8 because I don't have enough information to totally disagree with you but for sure Hell in this regard is a place of torment and not anihilation as it happens day and night forever and evr
The beast and the false prophet do appear to be tormented forever according to that scripture.It is interesting to note that the Lake of Fire is the same lake of fire that burns up the heavens and earth by which God creates a new heavens and earth.
Also, angels who had eternal life and sinned may be in a different situation to men who sin because men are not born with eternal life.
The tree of life gave Adam and Eve eternal life. One of the consequences of sin was separation from the tree of life to avoid men living forever in sin. Therefore if men are not set to live forever, then they are not necessarily going to live forever in torment.
Gen 2:9 "In the middle of the garden were the tree of life."
Gen 3:22-24
"And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.' So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."The lake of fire is the same fire that destroys the heavens and earth by which God creates a new heavens and new earth where the former things are no longer remembered. So if the old earth is destroyed in the same way that the sinner is.
2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.Isaiah 65:17
Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2009,08:21) KM,
So they say.
Why does a MOON represent Islam?
The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years. Information on the origins of the symbol are difficult to ascertain, but most sources agree that these ancient celestial symbols were in use by the peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in their worship of sun, moon, and sky gods. There are also reports that the crescent moon and star were used to represent the Carthaginian goddess Tanit or the Greek goddess Diana.The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and caravans flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders continued to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or symbolism on it.
It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol. Legend holds that the founder of the Ottoman Empire, Osman, had a dream in which the crescent moon stretched from one end of the earth to the other. Taking this as a good omen, he chose to keep the crescent and make it the symbol of his dynasty. There is speculation that the five points on the star represent the five pillars of Islam, but this is pure conjecture. The five points were not standard on the Ottoman flags, and as you will see on the following page, it is still not standard on flags used in the Muslim world today.
For hundreds of years, the Ottoman Empire ruled over the Muslim world. After centuries of battle with Christian Europe, it is understandable how the symbols of this empire became linked in people's minds with the faith of Islam as a whole.
Based on this history, many Muslims reject using the crescent moon as a symbol of Islam. The faith of Islam has historically had no symbol, and many refuse to accept what is essentially an ancient pagan icon. It is certainly not in uniform use among Muslims.
http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm
So, based on the facts, the cresent moon really says nothing much about the religeon Muslims follow. The cresent moon and star was simply a later corruption and had absolutly nothing to do with Mohammad.
Quote (karmarie @ Dec. 04 2009,08:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2009,08:21) KM,
So they say.
Why does a MOON represent Islam?
The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years.
Hi Karmarie,What is your view on Muslims saying that 666 is the number of the Quran.
Hi EdJ,
They do?
Well there was all kind of speculation on what 666 meant throughout history if i recall. Nero, the Pope etc
It could mean anything.
But thats interesting i will look it up.
Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 04 2009,09:53) Quote (karmarie @ Dec. 04 2009,08:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2009,08:21) KM,
So they say.
Why does a MOON represent Islam?
The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years.
Hi Karmarie,What is your view on Muslims saying that 666 is the number of the Quran.
Hi KM,
So does worship of the moon.I think they believe that the beast or 666 is westernism which came out of the earth, immoral countries, full of sex, booze, etc and that it is spreading throughout the world, I could believe that. I had a vision like that once. They try to live a good life without all of that, or they did, once.
Hi KM,
Some worship in ignorance
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what:Some worship in vain
Mark 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.but westernism is creeping in like a beast to consume and is a sad indicator that the end is drawing near.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2009,12:07) Hi KM,
Some worship in ignorance
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what:Some worship in vain
Mark 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Hi Nick,That could apply to anyone. Christian, Muslim or Jew.
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