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bodhitharta,
Some versions do not even include these verses stating "Verse 44 and 46, which are identical to v 48, are not found in the early mss"Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2009,11:12) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,05:58) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 29 2009,09:29) Ron,
I agree for the most part, this is from my journal on a study I did on the word Aion (eternal):
Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever.However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed” Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity
But what about the wicked who seem to prosper until death, where is the justice of God. Scriptures support that God will “balance the books” at resurrection. I believe it is God’s way to recompense, it would be unfair for the wicked to have prospered without ever having paid the price I believe it is God’s way to give justice to those who have suffered by exacting a proportional payment from the wicked
As to an argument that if punishment is not eternal then why would life be eternal? This would be valid if aion was the only word that could denote endless duration however scriptures also use other words to describe unending life; such as aphtharsia (incorruptible), athanasian (hath immortality), akataluton (imperishable), aphtharto (immortal)
This single misinterpretation has done more to dissuade many by impugning the character of God as one who demands unending torment not only the wicked, but the grandma who never heard of Jesus, this is inconsistent with the character of God.
At the very least the fact that there remains debate on the certainty of the proper translation gives reason to at least question it. And while the traditional interpretation is possible, the alternative seems more in line with the character of God
In judgment the wicked are resurrected, they will see what it is that they have truly lost, they will suffer 'elohims righteous fire which will literally destroy them (the second death) and this is Aion.My opinion.
What do you make of this:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-45When those who are judged in the resurrection punishment is told to occur where there is weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
While I understand that most here will not accept the Quran as a proof text it does coincide with these statements of Jesus
(3) Is the man who follows the good pleasure of Allah Like the man who draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and whose abode is in hell?- A woeful refuge!
(23) Allah hath promised the Hypocrites men and women, and the rejecters, of Faith, the fire of hell: Therein shall they dwell: Sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment,-
( At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #68)(26) They will swear to you by Allah, when ye return to them, that ye may leave them alone. So leave them alone: For they are an abomination, and hell is their dwelling-place,-a fitting recompense for the (evil) that they did.
( At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #95)
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (The GRAVE), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell (The GRAVE), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of 'elohim with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
The key to understanding the phrase unquenchable fire is in the last quote, Jer 17:27.
Israel did not heed the warning and as a result Jerusalem and the Temple of 'elohim were burned to the ground by Nebuchadnezzar (See II Kings 25:8,9).
Is Jerusalem burning today?
Obviously not.
An unquenchable fire clearly does not burn forever.
So what does the phrase mean?
A fire that cannot be quenched burns until its divine purpose has been accomplished and then it goes out.
Man cannot extinguish or quench the fire, but it does indeed go out when there is nothing left to burn.
Quote I have said to corruption, Thou my father: to the worm, my mother, and my sister. Job 17:14 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree. Job 24:20
How much less man, a worm? and the son of man, a worm? Job 25:6
But I a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. Psalm 22:6
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Isaiah 14:11
Fear not, thou worm Jacob, ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Isaiah 41:14
For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation. Isaiah 51:8
And it shall come to pass, from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire
be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:23-24Greek word, Gehenna:
Yeshua HaMoshiach' first use of gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount, we must first have his ministry, and that of his contemporary, John the Baptist, in their proper contexts.
We saw there that Malachi prophesied the coming of John the Baptist, and that Jesus confirmed that fulfillment by John.
John's preaching consisted of announcements of an imminent (“the axe lieth at the root of the tree”) fiery judgment on Israel if she didn't repent.
This was the same fiery judgment of which Malachi had spoken, and said that John would announce.
With this idea of imminent fiery judgment in the context, John continued in Mt. 3.11-12:
I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
Remember this “unquenchable fire.”
It is the fire spoken of by Malachi, John, and Yeshua HaMoshiach.
The word translated "burn up" here:
This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume."
It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire.
Gehenna, the word hell is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location.
It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom.
Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad.
Hence, Gehenna is a proper name like the Rio Grande Valley of Texas and New Mexico.
This being true, the word should never have been translated “hell.”
The two words have nothing in common.
We first find Hinnom in Josh. 1.8 and 18.16, where he is mentioned in Joshua's layout of the lands of Judah and Benjamin.
In II K. 23.10, we find that righteous King Josiah “defiled Topheth in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.”
Josiah, in his purification of the land of Judah, violated the idolatrous worship to the idol Molech by tearing down the shrines.
Topheth was a word meaning literally, “a place of burning.”
In II Chron. 28.3, idolatrous King Ahaz burnt incense and his children in the fire there, as did idolatrous King Manasseh in II Chron. 33.6.
In Neh. 11.30, we find some settling in Topheth after the restoration of the Jewish captives from Babylon.
In Jer. 19.2, 6, Jeremiah prophesied calamity coming upon the idolatrous Jews there, calling it the valley of slaughter, because 'elohim was going to slaughter the Jews there, using Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon. In Jer. 7.32, Jeremiah prophesied destruction coming upon the idolatrous Jews of his day with these words:
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter; for they shall burn in Tophet, till there be no peace.
Notice the mention of Topheth, “the place of burning,” again.
Isaiah also spoke of Topheth this way in Isa. 30.33, when he warned the pro-Egypt party among the Jews (i.e., those trusting in Egypt for their salvation from Babylon rather than 'elohim) of a fiery judgment coming on them.
In Jer. 19.11-14, Jeremiah gave this pronouncement of judgment by Babylon on Jerusalem at the valley of Hinnom:
And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.
From these passages we can see that, to the Jews, the valley of Hinnom, or Topheth, from which the New Testament concept of Gehenna arose, came to mean a place of burning, a valley of slaughter, and a place of calamitous fiery judgment.
Thus, Thayer in his Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, said, concerning Gehenna:
Gehenna, the name of a valley on the S. and E. of Jerusalem. . . which was so called from the cries of the little children who were thrown into the fiery arms of Moloch, i.e., of an idol having the form of a bull.
The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by king Josiah (2 Kings xxiii.10), that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed.
And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies, that the air might not become tainted by the putrefaction, it came to pass that the place was called Gehenna.
Actually, since Gehenna was a proper name of a valley, it would have been called Gehenna whether or not any idolatry, burning, or dumping of garbage had ever occurred there, and it did, as we now see.
While this language is generally applied to hell, it's not so used in any of the Gehenna passages in the Bible.
In Isa. 66.24, we read of 'elohim's destruction of Jerusalem in the generation when Yeshua HaMoshiach was crucified:
Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.
This passage contains nothing about conscious suffering, much less enduring to the end of time.
Yet this is the same kind of language we saw in Mk. 9.47-48, the passage where Yeshua HaMoshiach described Gehenna with “unquenchable fire.”
There Yeshua HaMoshiach said:
It is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of 'elohim with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
When Yeshua HaMoshiach spoke these words, the Bible had never used such language of anything but a national judgment.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 30 2009,06:12) While I understand that most here will not accept the Quran as a proof text it does coincide with these statements of Jesus (3) Is the man who follows the good pleasure of Allah Like the man who draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and whose abode is in hell?- A woeful refuge!
(23) Allah hath promised the Hypocrites men and women, and the rejecters, of Faith, the fire of hell:Therein shall they dwell:
Sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment,-
( At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #68)(26) They will swear to you by Allah, when ye return to them, that ye may leave them alone. So leave them alone:
For they are an abomination, and hell is their dwelling-place,-a fitting recompense for the (evil) that they did.
( At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #95)
Zech.3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee,
O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee:
is not this (Christian) brand plucked out of the fire?Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 30 2009,07:48) bodhitharta,
Some versions do not even include these verses stating "Verse 44 and 46, which are identical to v 48, are not found in the early mss"
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-43What about this?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 30 2009,06:33) Hi BD,
The thoughts of men add nothing.
What about the thoughts of you as a man?Also I asked you about Hell being a punishment and you refuse to admit the obvious that in the end there will be no turning of the cheek, "Vengence is mine saith the Lord"
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 30 2009,05:27) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 30 2009,07:48) bodhitharta,
Some versions do not even include these verses stating "Verse 44 and 46, which are identical to v 48, are not found in the early mss"
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-43What about this?
In my post I stated that they would pay the price (I agree with that scripture), but how does the scripture you posted imply eternal "wailing and gnashing of teeth"My opinion – Wm
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,08:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2009,11:12) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,05:58) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 29 2009,09:29) Ron,
I agree for the most part, this is from my journal on a study I did on the word Aion (eternal):
Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever.However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed” Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity
But what about the wicked who seem to prosper until death, where is the justice of God. Scriptures support that God will “balance the books” at resurrection. I believe it is God’s way to recompense, it would be unfair for the wicked to have prospered without ever having paid the price I believe it is God’s way to give justice to those who have suffered by exacting a proportional payment from the wicked
As to an argument that if punishment is not eternal then why would life be eternal? This would be valid if aion was the only word that could denote endless duration however scriptures also use other words to describe unending life; such as aphtharsia (incorruptible), athanasian (hath immortality), akataluton (imperishable), aphtharto (immortal)
This single misinterpretation has done more to dissuade many by impugning the character of God as one who demands unending torment not only the wicked, but the grandma who never heard of Jesus, this is inconsistent with the character of God.
At the very least the fact that there remains debate on the certainty of the proper translation gives reason to at least question it. And while the traditional interpretation is possible, the alternative seems more in line with the character of God
In judgment the wicked are resurrected, they will see what it is that they have truly lost, they will suffer 'elohims righteous fire which will literally destroy them (the second death) and this is Aion.My opinion.
What do you make of this:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-45When those who are judged in the resurrection punishment is told to occur where there is weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
While I understand that most here will not accept the Quran as a proof text it does coincide with these statements of Jesus
(3) Is the man who follows the good pleasure of Allah Like the man who draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and whose abode is in hell?- A woeful refuge!
(23) Allah hath promised the Hypocrites men and women, and the rejecters, of Faith, the fire of hell: Therein shall they dwell: Sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment,-
( At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #68)(26) They will swear to you by Allah, when ye return to them, that ye may leave them alone. So leave them alone: For they are an abomination, and hell is their dwelling-place,-a fitting recompense for the (evil) that they did.
( At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #95)
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (The GRAVE), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell (The GRAVE), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of 'elohim with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
The key to understanding the phrase unquenchable fire is in the last quote, Jer 17:27.
Israel did not heed the warning and as a result Jerusalem and the Temple of 'elohim were burned to the ground by Nebuchadnezzar (See II Kings 25:8,9).
Is Jerusalem burning today?
Obviously not.
An unquenchable fire clearly does not burn forever.
So what does the phrase mean?
A fire that cannot be quenched burns until its divine purpose has been accomplished and then it goes out.
Man cannot extinguish or quench the fire, but it does indeed go out when there is nothing left to burn.
Quote I have said to corruption, Thou my father: to the worm, my mother, and my sister. Job 17:14 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree. Job 24:20
How much less man, a worm? and the son of man, a worm? Job 25:6
But I a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. Psalm 22:6
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Isaiah 14:11
Fear not, thou worm Jacob, ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Isaiah 41:14
For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation. Isaiah 51:8
And it shall come to pass, from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another,
shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:23-24Greek word, Gehenna:
Yeshua HaMoshiach' first use of gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount, we must first have his ministry, and that of his contemporary, John the Baptist, in their proper contexts.
We saw there that Malachi prophesied the coming of John the Baptist, and that Jesus confirmed that fulfillment by John.
John's preaching consisted of announcements of an imminent (“the axe lieth at the root of the tree”) fiery judgment on Israel if she didn't repent.
This was the same fiery judgment of which Malachi had spoken, and said that John would announce.
With this idea of imminent fiery judgment in the context, John continued in Mt. 3.11-12:
I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
Remember this “unquenchable fire.”
It is the fire spoken of by Malachi, John, and Yeshua HaMoshiach.
The word translated "burn up" here:
This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume."
It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire.
Gehenna, the word hell is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location.
It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom.
Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad.
Hence, Gehenna is a proper name like the Rio Grande Valley of Texas and New Mexico.
This being true, the word should never have been translated “hell.”
The two words have nothing in common.
We first find Hinnom in Josh. 1.8 and 18.16, where he is mentioned in Joshua's layout of the lands of Judah and Benjamin.
In II K. 23.10, we find that righteous King Josiah “defiled Topheth in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.”
Josiah, in his purification of the land of Judah, violated the idolatrous worship to the idol Molech by tearing down the shrines.
Topheth was a word meaning literally, “a place of burning.”
In II Chron. 28.3, idolatrous King Ahaz burnt incense and his children in the fire there, as did idolatrous King Manasseh in II Chron. 33.6.
In Neh. 11.30, we find some settling in Topheth after the restoration of the Jewish captives from Babylon.
In Jer. 19.2, 6, Jeremiah prophesied calamity coming upon the idolatrous Jews there, calling it the valley of slaughter, because 'elohim was going to slaughter the Jews there, using Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon. In Jer. 7.32, Jeremiah prophesied destruction coming upon the idolatrous Jews of his day with these words:
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter; for they shall burn in Tophet, till there be no peace.
Notice the mention of Topheth, “the place of burning,” again.
Isaiah also spoke of Topheth this way in Isa. 30.33, when he warned the pro-Egypt party among the Jews (i.e., those trusting in Egypt for their salvation from Babylon rather than 'elohim) of a fiery judgment coming on them.
In Jer. 19.11-14, Jeremiah gave this pronouncement of judgment by Babylon on Jerusalem at the valley of Hinnom:
And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.
From these passages we can see that, to the Jews, the valley of Hinnom, or Topheth, from which the New Testament concept of Gehenna arose, came to mean a place of burning, a valley of slaughter, and a place of calamitous fiery judgment.
Thus, Thayer in his Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, said, concerning Gehenna:
Gehenna, the name of a valley on the S. and E. of Jerusalem. . . which was so called from the cries of the little children who were thrown into the fiery arms of Moloch, i.e., of an idol having the form of a bull.
The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by king Josiah (2 Kings xxiii.10), that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed.
And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies, that the air might not become tainted by the putrefaction, it came to pass that the place was called Gehenna.
Actually, since Gehenna was a proper name of a valley, it would have been called Gehenna whether or not any idolatry, burning, or dumping of garbage had ever occurred there, and it did, as we now see.
While this language is generally applied to hell, it's not so used in any of the Gehenna passages in the Bible.
In Isa. 66.24, we read of 'elohim's destruction of Jerusalem in the generation when Yeshua HaMoshiach was crucified:
Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.
This passage contains nothing about conscious suffering, much less enduring to the end of time.
Yet this is the same kind of language we saw in Mk. 9.47-48, the passage where Yeshua HaMoshiach described Gehenna with “unquenchable fire.”
There Yeshua HaMoshiach said:
It is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of 'elohim with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
When Yeshua HaMoshiach spoke these words, the Bible had never used such language of anything but a national judgment.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:12-14Cast him out into outer darkness? The idea of Hell according to my understanding is not that one is literally on fire but they are in a place of great suffering but unable to die.
(1) Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #56)(5) At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their skins will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.
( Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #20)Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,00:58) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 29 2009,09:29) Ron,
I agree for the most part, this is from my journal on a study I did on the word Aion (eternal):
Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever.However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed” Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity
But what about the wicked who seem to prosper until death, where is the justice of God. Scriptures support that God will “balance the books” at resurrection. I believe it is God’s way to recompense, it would be unfair for the wicked to have prospered without ever having paid the price I believe it is God’s way to give justice to those who have suffered by exacting a proportional payment from the wicked
As to an argument that if punishment is not eternal then why would life be eternal? This would be valid if aion was the only word that could denote endless duration however scriptures also use other words to describe unending life; such as aphtharsia (incorruptible), athanasian (hath immortality), akataluton (imperishable), aphtharto (immortal)
This single misinterpretation has done more to dissuade many by impugning the character of God as one who demands unending torment not only the wicked, but the grandma who never heard of Jesus, this is inconsistent with the character of God.
At the very least the fact that there remains debate on the certainty of the proper translation gives reason to at least question it. And while the traditional interpretation is possible, the alternative seems more in line with the character of God
In judgment the wicked are resurrected, they will see what it is that they have truly lost, they will suffer 'elohims righteous fire which will literally destroy them (the second death) and this is Aion.My opinion.
Ron,
I agree except I believe the "burning up" will last in duration to the extent that one will have "paid" for their sins. Remember it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorra, indicating levels of punishment.My opinion – Wm
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2009,15:39) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,08:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2009,11:12) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,05:58) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 29 2009,09:29) Ron,
I agree for the most part, this is from my journal on a study I did on the word Aion (eternal):
Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever.However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed” Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity
But what about the wicked who seem to prosper until death, where is the justice of God. Scriptures support that God will “balance the books” at resurrection. I believe it is God’s way to recompense, it would be unfair for the wicked to have prospered without ever having paid the price I believe it is God’s way to give justice to those who have suffered by exacting a proportional payment from the wicked
As to an argument that if punishment is not eternal then why would life be eternal? This would be valid if aion was the only word that could denote endless duration however scriptures also use other words to describe unending life; such as aphtharsia (incorruptible), athanasian (hath immortality), akataluton (imperishable), aphtharto (immortal)
This single misinterpretation has done more to dissuade many by impugning the character of God as one who demands unending torment not only the wicked, but the grandma who never heard of Jesus, this is inconsistent with the character of God.
At the very least the fact that there remains debate on the certainty of the proper translation gives reason to at least question it. And while the traditional interpretation is possible, the alternative seems more in line with the character of God
In judgment the wicked are resurrected, they will see what it is that they have truly lost, they will suffer 'elohims righteous fire which will literally destroy them (the second death) and this is Aion.My opinion.
What do you make of this:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-45When those who are judged in the resurrection punishment is told to occur where there is weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
While I understand that most here will not accept the Quran as a proof text it does coincide with these statements of Jesus
(3) Is the man who follows the good pleasure of Allah Like the man who draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and whose abode is in hell?- A woeful refuge!
(23) Allah hath promised the Hypocrites men and women, and the rejecters, of Faith, the fire of hell: Therein shall they dwell: Sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment,-
( At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #68)(26) They will swear to you by Allah, when ye return to them, that ye may leave them alone. So leave them alone: For they are an abomination, and hell is their dwelling-place,-a fitting recompense for the (evil) that they did.
( At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #95)
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (The GRAVE), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell (The GRAVE), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of 'elohim with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
The key to understanding the phrase unquenchable fire is in the last quote, Jer 17:27.
Israel did not heed the warning and as a result Jerusalem and the Temple of 'elohim were burned to the ground by Nebuchadnezzar (See II Kings 25:8,9).
Is Jerusalem burning today?
Obviously not.
An unquenchable fire clearly does not burn forever.
So what does the phrase mean?
A fire that cannot be quenched burns until its divine purpose has been accomplished and then it goes out.
Man cannot extinguish or quench the fire, but it does indeed go out when there is nothing left to burn.
Quote I have said to corruption, Thou my father: to the worm, my mother, and my sister. Job 17:14 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree. Job 24:20
How much less man, a worm? and the son of man, a worm? Job 25:6
But I a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. Psalm 22:6
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Isaiah 14:11
Fear not, thou worm Jacob, ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Isaiah 41:14
For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the wor
m shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation. Isaiah 51:8And it shall come to pass, from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:23-24
Greek word, Gehenna:
Yeshua HaMoshiach' first use of gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount, we must first have his ministry, and that of his contemporary, John the Baptist, in their proper contexts.
We saw there that Malachi prophesied the coming of John the Baptist, and that Jesus confirmed that fulfillment by John.
John's preaching consisted of announcements of an imminent (“the axe lieth at the root of the tree”) fiery judgment on Israel if she didn't repent.
This was the same fiery judgment of which Malachi had spoken, and said that John would announce.
With this idea of imminent fiery judgment in the context, John continued in Mt. 3.11-12:
I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
Remember this “unquenchable fire.”
It is the fire spoken of by Malachi, John, and Yeshua HaMoshiach.
The word translated "burn up" here:
This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume."
It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire.
Gehenna, the word hell is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location.
It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom.
Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad.
Hence, Gehenna is a proper name like the Rio Grande Valley of Texas and New Mexico.
This being true, the word should never have been translated “hell.”
The two words have nothing in common.
We first find Hinnom in Josh. 1.8 and 18.16, where he is mentioned in Joshua's layout of the lands of Judah and Benjamin.
In II K. 23.10, we find that righteous King Josiah “defiled Topheth in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.”
Josiah, in his purification of the land of Judah, violated the idolatrous worship to the idol Molech by tearing down the shrines.
Topheth was a word meaning literally, “a place of burning.”
In II Chron. 28.3, idolatrous King Ahaz burnt incense and his children in the fire there, as did idolatrous King Manasseh in II Chron. 33.6.
In Neh. 11.30, we find some settling in Topheth after the restoration of the Jewish captives from Babylon.
In Jer. 19.2, 6, Jeremiah prophesied calamity coming upon the idolatrous Jews there, calling it the valley of slaughter, because 'elohim was going to slaughter the Jews there, using Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon. In Jer. 7.32, Jeremiah prophesied destruction coming upon the idolatrous Jews of his day with these words:
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter; for they shall burn in Tophet, till there be no peace.
Notice the mention of Topheth, “the place of burning,” again.
Isaiah also spoke of Topheth this way in Isa. 30.33, when he warned the pro-Egypt party among the Jews (i.e., those trusting in Egypt for their salvation from Babylon rather than 'elohim) of a fiery judgment coming on them.
In Jer. 19.11-14, Jeremiah gave this pronouncement of judgment by Babylon on Jerusalem at the valley of Hinnom:
And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.
From these passages we can see that, to the Jews, the valley of Hinnom, or Topheth, from which the New Testament concept of Gehenna arose, came to mean a place of burning, a valley of slaughter, and a place of calamitous fiery judgment.
Thus, Thayer in his Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, said, concerning Gehenna:
Gehenna, the name of a valley on the S. and E. of Jerusalem. . . which was so called from the cries of the little children who were thrown into the fiery arms of Moloch, i.e., of an idol having the form of a bull.
The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by king Josiah (2 Kings xxiii.10), that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed.
And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies, that the air might not become tainted by the putrefaction, it came to pass that the place was called Gehenna.
Actually, since Gehenna was a proper name of a valley, it would have been called Gehenna whether or not any idolatry, burning, or dumping of garbage had ever occurred there, and it did, as we now see.
While this language is generally applied to hell, it's not so used in any of the Gehenna passages in the Bible.
In Isa. 66.24, we read of 'elohim's destruction of Jerusalem in the generation when Yeshua HaMoshiach was crucified:
Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.
This passage contains nothing about conscious suffering, much less enduring to the end of time.
Yet this is the same kind of language we saw in Mk. 9.47-48, the passage where Yeshua HaMoshiach described Gehenna with “unquenchable fire.”
There Yeshua HaMoshiach said:
It is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of 'elohim with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
When Yeshua HaMoshiach spoke these words, the Bible had never used such language of anything but a national judgment.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:12-14Cast him out into outer darkness? The idea of Hell according to my understanding is not that one is literally on fire but they are in a place of great suffering but unable to die.
(1) Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #56)(5) At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their skins will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.
( Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #20)
Outer darkness is the grave,Quote But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Quote And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
The wicked shall see [it], and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,12:33) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2009,15:39) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,08:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2009,11:12) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,05:58) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 29 2009,09:29) Ron,
I agree for the most part, this is from my journal on a study I did on the word Aion (eternal):
Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever.However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed” Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity
But what about the wicked who seem to prosper until death, where is the justice of God. Scriptures support that God will “balance the books” at resurrection. I believe it is God’s way to recompense, it would be unfair for the wicked to have prospered without ever having paid the price I believe it is God’s way to give justice to those who have suffered by exacting a proportional payment from the wicked
As to an argument that if punishment is not eternal then why would life be eternal? This would be valid if aion was the only word that could denote endless duration however scriptures also use other words to describe unending life; such as aphtharsia (incorruptible), athanasian (hath immortality), akataluton (imperishable), aphtharto (immortal)
This single misinterpretation has done more to dissuade many by impugning the character of God as one who demands unending torment not only the wicked, but the grandma who never heard of Jesus, this is inconsistent with the character of God.
At the very least the fact that there remains debate on the certainty of the proper translation gives reason to at least question it. And while the traditional interpretation is possible, the alternative seems more in line with the character of God
In judgment the wicked are resurrected, they will see what it is that they have truly lost, they will suffer 'elohims righteous fire which will literally destroy them (the second death) and this is Aion.My opinion.
What do you make of this:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-45When those who are judged in the resurrection punishment is told to occur where there is weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
While I understand that most here will not accept the Quran as a proof text it does coincide with these statements of Jesus
(3) Is the man who follows the good pleasure of Allah Like the man who draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and whose abode is in hell?- A woeful refuge!
(23) Allah hath promised the Hypocrites men and women, and the rejecters, of Faith, the fire of hell: Therein shall they dwell: Sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment,-
( At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #68)(26) They will swear to you by Allah, when ye return to them, that ye may leave them alone. So leave them alone: For they are an abomination, and hell is their dwelling-place,-a fitting recompense for the (evil) that they did.
( At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #95)
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (The GRAVE), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell (The GRAVE), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of 'elohim with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
The key to understanding the phrase unquenchable fire is in the last quote, Jer 17:27.
Israel did not heed the warning and as a result Jerusalem and the Temple of 'elohim were burned to the ground by Nebuchadnezzar (See II Kings 25:8,9).
Is Jerusalem burning today?
Obviously not.
An unquenchable fire clearly does not burn forever.
So what does the phrase mean?
A fire that cannot be quenched burns until its divine purpose has been accomplished and then it goes out.
Man cannot extinguish or quench the fire, but it does indeed go out when there is nothing left to burn.
Quote I have said to corruption, Thou my father: to the worm, my mother, and my sister. Job 17:14 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree. Job 24:20
How much less man, a worm? and the son of man, a worm? Job 25:6
But I a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. Psalm 22:6
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and t
he worms cover thee. Isaiah 14:11Fear not, thou worm Jacob, ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Isaiah 41:14
For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation. Isaiah 51:8
And it shall come to pass, from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:23-24
Greek word, Gehenna:
Yeshua HaMoshiach' first use of gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount, we must first have his ministry, and that of his contemporary, John the Baptist, in their proper contexts.
We saw there that Malachi prophesied the coming of John the Baptist, and that Jesus confirmed that fulfillment by John.
John's preaching consisted of announcements of an imminent (“the axe lieth at the root of the tree”) fiery judgment on Israel if she didn't repent.
This was the same fiery judgment of which Malachi had spoken, and said that John would announce.
With this idea of imminent fiery judgment in the context, John continued in Mt. 3.11-12:
I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
Remember this “unquenchable fire.”
It is the fire spoken of by Malachi, John, and Yeshua HaMoshiach.
The word translated "burn up" here:
This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume."
It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire.
Gehenna, the word hell is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location.
It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom.
Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad.
Hence, Gehenna is a proper name like the Rio Grande Valley of Texas and New Mexico.
This being true, the word should never have been translated “hell.”
The two words have nothing in common.
We first find Hinnom in Josh. 1.8 and 18.16, where he is mentioned in Joshua's layout of the lands of Judah and Benjamin.
In II K. 23.10, we find that righteous King Josiah “defiled Topheth in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.”
Josiah, in his purification of the land of Judah, violated the idolatrous worship to the idol Molech by tearing down the shrines.
Topheth was a word meaning literally, “a place of burning.”
In II Chron. 28.3, idolatrous King Ahaz burnt incense and his children in the fire there, as did idolatrous King Manasseh in II Chron. 33.6.
In Neh. 11.30, we find some settling in Topheth after the restoration of the Jewish captives from Babylon.
In Jer. 19.2, 6, Jeremiah prophesied calamity coming upon the idolatrous Jews there, calling it the valley of slaughter, because 'elohim was going to slaughter the Jews there, using Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon. In Jer. 7.32, Jeremiah prophesied destruction coming upon the idolatrous Jews of his day with these words:
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter; for they shall burn in Tophet, till there be no peace.
Notice the mention of Topheth, “the place of burning,” again.
Isaiah also spoke of Topheth this way in Isa. 30.33, when he warned the pro-Egypt party among the Jews (i.e., those trusting in Egypt for their salvation from Babylon rather than 'elohim) of a fiery judgment coming on them.
In Jer. 19.11-14, Jeremiah gave this pronouncement of judgment by Babylon on Jerusalem at the valley of Hinnom:
And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.
From these passages we can see that, to the Jews, the valley of Hinnom, or Topheth, from which the New Testament concept of Gehenna arose, came to mean a place of burning, a valley of slaughter, and a place of calamitous fiery judgment.
Thus, Thayer in his Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, said, concerning Gehenna:
Gehenna, the name of a valley on the S. and E. of Jerusalem. . . which was so called from the cries of the little children who were thrown into the fiery arms of Moloch, i.e., of an idol having the form of a bull.
The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by king Josiah (2 Kings xxiii.10), that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed.
And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies, that the air might not become tainted by the putrefaction, it came to pass that the place was called Gehenna.
Actually, since Gehenna was a proper name of a valley, it would have been called Gehenna whether or not any idolatry, burning, or dumping of garbage had ever occurred there, and it did, as we now see.
While this language is generally applied to hell, it's not so used in any of the Gehenna passages in the Bible.
In Isa. 66.24, we read of 'elohim's destruction of Jerusalem in the generation when Yeshua HaMoshiach was crucified:
Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.
This passage contains nothing about conscious suffering, much less enduring to the end of time.
Yet this is the same kind of language we saw in Mk. 9.47-48, the passage where Yeshua HaMoshiach described Gehenna with “unquenchable fire.”
There Yeshua HaMoshiach said:
It is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of 'elohim with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
When Yeshua HaMoshiach spoke these words, the Bible had never used such language of anything but a national judgment.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:12-14Cast him out into outer darkness? The idea of Hell according to my understanding is not that one is literally on fire but they are in a place of great suffering but unable to die.
(1) Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #56)(5) At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their skins will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.
(
Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #20)
Outer darkness is the grave,Quote But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Quote And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
The wicked shall see [it], and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.
How does one weep and gnash their teeth in the grave? Remember they have been resurrected from the grave and this is their judgement.I am amazed at the wild doctrines. We have the choice of life and death. Here, and now. Life is good, happy, healthy, prosperous, love , peace joy on and on if you believe in and sow good.
Then there is believing in death, sin, suffering, pain, sickness, disease, hate, human destruction, evil people, bad things and on and on!
If this is not hell where the worm dieth not and diseases creep in and slowly destroy our brains where we can't think right, and cancers eat our bodies slowly until complete destruction then I wouldn't worry about hell, can it be worse than this?The choice is now, the Kingdom is now, the plan of God is now, heaven and hell are now. We needn't look any further for hell. Its here.
Now if we wake up to the now Kingdom of God ruling from within each individual that believes we can either be in life or partaking of death. No faith will be needed in Heaven. Faith is now to save your soul from destruction.
Jesus is the example for all of us to compare. If Jesus was poor, sickly,weak,and a disease took him from life then that is our example. If nothing could destroy or degrade the life of Jesus without him allowing it, then so it is with all that believe and hold fast. The temptation that we talk about is not temptation to not do certain things, its temptation to not believe your right to life. Your right to health. Its not the food that goes into you that makes you ill. Its the angers, hate, destructive forces that come from within and you get from life the same as you sow or put out. Jesus is trying to save you from hellfire right now if you will believe and hold fast. IMO, TK
Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 30 2009,16:39) bodhitharta,
And how long does that punishment last?
I would like to say forever but I am still researching that as it may be imposed in various degrees including forever. I will study it a little more and give an opinion(with scriptures backing up the findings, I will be using both sources that I use) Get back to you soon.Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 30 2009,22:04) I am amazed at the wild doctrines. We have the choice of life and death. Here, and now. Life is good, happy, healthy, prosperous, love , peace joy on and on if you believe in and sow good. Then there is believing in death, sin, suffering, pain, sickness, disease, hate, human destruction, evil people, bad things and on and on!
If this is not hell where the worm dieth not and diseases creep in and slowly destroy our brains where we can't think right, and cancers eat our bodies slowly until complete destruction then I wouldn't worry about hell, can it be worse than this?The choice is now, the Kingdom is now, the plan of God is now, heaven and hell are now. We needn't look any further for hell. Its here.
Now if we wake up to the now Kingdom of God ruling from within each individual that believes we can either be in life or partaking of death. No faith will be needed in Heaven. Faith is now to save your soul from destruction.
Jesus is the example for all of us to compare. If Jesus was poor, sickly,weak,and a disease took him from life then that is our example. If nothing could destroy or degrade the life of Jesus without him allowing it, then so it is with all that believe and hold fast. The temptation that we talk about is not temptation to not do certain things, its temptation to not believe your right to life. Your right to health. Its not the food that goes into you that makes you ill. Its the angers, hate, destructive forces that come from within and you get from life the same as you sow or put out. Jesus is trying to save you from hellfire right now if you will believe and hold fast. IMO, TK
Great spiritual discourse!, and what your saying is true but only in the sense of living right now, Our discussion on hell at the moment is a discussion of after this life on earth not that we intend to go to hell but to have knowledge of what it means will assist us in being able to help others.For instance if hell is simply the grave and nothing more perhaps someone evil may not care about simply not existing some people want to die anyway.
If hell is eternal torment some will be drawn closer to God out of fear while some may feel that God would not torment someone forever causing them to disbelieve.
Either way, in order to not bear false witness intentionally we should have a reason to why we assert a certain position.
Hey Bod: Where is Hell? We know when Jesus used the word ghenna it was talking about the trash dump outside Jerusalem. He was using it as a mental/spiritual picture of what it would be like to be separated from God!
Do you believe God is everywhere? If you agree that God is everywhere then there is no place that he is not! He is in everyone and everything. You cannot separate yourself from God if you believe he is everywhere.
If Hell is a place where God is not, then it does not exist. There is no Hell in heaven. There is only heaven and earth! Heaven is God or where God is. God is also inside every human being. This is the good news from Jesus that we either believe or we don't believe. If we
believe, we experience life/God, if we don't believe, we experience the illusion of death/sin/or separation from God. It has to be an illusion of separation because it is not of the truth. There is no sin or separation from God, he is everywhere. We either believe it or we don't.
Now the mind is powerful and a person becomes what he believes God says he is. If he believes God says he is a sinner then that is what is truth to him. Its is not the truth. Yet it is truth to him. That is what I call illusion. A belief that seems real but is not of Truth. IMO, TK
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 01 2009,05:17) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 30 2009,16:39) bodhitharta,
And how long does that punishment last?
I would like to say forever but I am still researching that as it may be imposed in various degrees including forever. I will study it a little more and give an opinion(with scriptures backing up the findings, I will be using both sources that I use) Get back to you soon.
According to scripture, the wicked shall be destroyed. They will perish.John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.2 Peter 2:12
But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.2 Thessalonians 2:10
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 01 2009,21:35) Hey Bod: Where is Hell? We know when Jesus used the word ghenna it was talking about the trash dump outside Jerusalem. He was using it as a mental/spiritual picture of what it would be like to be separated from God! Do you believe God is everywhere? If you agree that God is everywhere then there is no place that he is not! He is in everyone and everything. You cannot separate yourself from God if you believe he is everywhere.
If Hell is a place where God is not, then it does not exist. There is no Hell in heaven. There is only heaven and earth! Heaven is God or where God is. God is also inside every human being. This is the good news from Jesus that we either believe or we don't believe. If we
believe, we experience life/God, if we don't believe, we experience the illusion of death/sin/or separation from God. It has to be an illusion of separation because it is not of the truth. There is no sin or separation from God, he is everywhere. We either believe it or we don't.
Now the mind is powerful and a person becomes what he believes God says he is. If he believes God says he is a sinner then that is what is truth to him. Its is not the truth. Yet it is truth to him. That is what I call illusion. A belief that seems real but is not of Truth. IMO, TK
For God to be everywhere does not mean he is in everything God is not His creation, His creation is a Sign He is the Reality.Hell, no matter where it would be or what metaphor is used about it still exists and is described of as a punishment and not a perception.
Of course you must also understand as you have said previously there is great evil and pain in the world today this does not stem from perceptions but actions of men, when someone is being tortured, raped or killed it is not their perception of such it is happening.
Likewise, this shows that actual punishment is compatible with actual evil being no less than a perception and to occur in reality.
So, separation is not the issue because it is a casting out of one condition into another condition. Imagine being placed on one of the planets in the body you are now in it would be hell and if you were not allowed to die it would stay hell but it would not be God that inflicted this upon you it would be your own wronging of your own soul.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 01 2009,05:17) Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 30 2009,16:39) bodhitharta,
And how long does that punishment last?
I would like to say forever but I am still researching that as it may be imposed in various degrees including forever. I will study it a little more and give an opinion(with scriptures backing up the findings, I will be using both sources that I use) Get back to you soon.Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 02 2009,05:57) Hell, no matter where it would be or what metaphor is used about it still exists and is described of as a punishment and not a perception. Of course you must also understand as you have said previously there is great evil and pain in the world today this does not stem from perceptions but actions of men, when someone is being tortured, raped or killed it is not their perception of such it is happening.
Likewise, this shows that actual punishment is compatible with actual evil being no less than a perception and to occur in reality.
So, separation is not the issue because it is a casting out of one condition into another condition. Imagine being placed on one of the planets in the body you are now in it would be hell and if you were not allowed to die it would stay hell but it would not be God that inflicted this upon you it would be your own wronging of your own soul
Hi BD,How does this ‘evil person’ get to your(never ending) torture planet?
It seems your imagination is leading your words instead of the HolySpirit.
I suggest you get your information from God’s Word instead of from men;
they seem to be just confusing you(Babylon) more and more.Rev.14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image,
and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb(Not some torture world BD):
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,
who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church of the Living God. (Matt.16:18)
The torment stops when they stop worshipping the beast(this includes you BD) and image;
once a person becomes a “Christian” they are plucked out of the never ending fire.
Zech.3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD
that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this [Christian] brand plucked out of the fire?Why do you continue to peddle such garbage?
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