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Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,08:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2008,09:09) Hi mk,
If Satan is only a servant of God why is he punished?Rev20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.He is used by God but he has been judged.
Jn16
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Because “the devil” is the origin of carnal nature and carnal nature has nothing to do with the Spirit – they are opposed to each other – God created adversity to do his biddingGod created the {tree} of good and evil – evil did not create itself.
Hi MKGod created a “tree” in the garden that he forbid the man or woman to eat. It was called the “tree of knowledge of good and evil” (Gen 2:9) because it represented what God had reserved for himself.
The tree was neither good nor evil.
Man had the choice to eat of the tree of life or to disobey God and eat that which was forbidden.
God is not the author of evil.
WJ
Hi mk,
Man and earth was cursed for rebellion
Gen 3
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
James 3:14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 this wisdom is not descending from above, but earthly, physical, demon-like, 16 for where zeal and rivalry [are], there is insurrection and every evil matter;
It is a pagan superstitious idea that there are 'beings' not of the earth's creation that come into our world and cause us to sin or influence us to sin.
Wisdom that is evil is EARTHLY, it is Physical and that is what it means to be of the devil.
Php 3:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame–who set their mind on earthly things.
The dark force that is ruling earth, is EARTHLY not of a supernatural realm of evil, it is the force that draws us to serve our flesh, that god being represented in verse 19 as our belly or rather our seat of emotion or natural instincts.
Lu 4:2 being tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry.
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
God created the good and the evil the light and the darkness. The evil is the natural instincts he gave to the creatures of the world, instincts that do not live on rational thought. He created the darkness of death which draws creatures to follow their instincts. When man follows the ways of the world, he is doing just that he is following the WAYS OF THE NATURAL EARTH, not some evil supernatural being.
Ro 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
We do not set our minds on supernatural angels and worship them when we are sinning, we are thinking of EARTHLY things because we are thinking of our flesh? Our OWN nature draws us to serve our flesh. First the carnal mind then comes the spiritual mind when God grants it.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
We do not give into our flesh because other sinful creatures draw us to do so, it is clearly written that by OUR NATURE we are children of wrath.
Ephesians 4:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
Time and time again I hear that men grow corrupt due to fallen angels, NO, it is clear they grow corrupt according to their own lusts that are brought on by their very own nature.
Why must you add stories and concepts to the bible people? If the bible says that we are tempted by our own lusts, then the devil that tempts us MUST then be representative of a man who is following after his own lusts. Peter was an adversary to God because he had in mind the things of men. Christ says woe to the world for the offenses and that those offenses come from man. The adversary that entered into Judas would clearly then have been one of the dominant thoughts of the ways of this world, of which is that money is everything.
Hi Jodi,
So you define what exists and not scripture?We cannot blame Satan for our sin.
He is not the cause.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2008,12:02) Hi Jodi,
So you define what exists and not scripture?We cannot blame Satan for our sin.
He is not the cause.
NickJodi has shown you scripture that says that we are tempted of our own nature – that scripture exists.
Isn't our very nature lustful? – that is the cause of our sin. When we choose to follow that nature we sin ………. and we have all chosen that path for all have sinned ………
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 22 2008,15:02) Hi Jodi,
So you define what exists and not scripture?We cannot blame Satan for our sin.
He is not the cause.
Nick your the one who is denying scripture, not me.To be of the adversary is to have in mind the things of men, to think according to the world.
To be of the adversary does not say to be influenced by a supernatural being.
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,10:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2008,12:02) Hi Jodi,
So you define what exists and not scripture?We cannot blame Satan for our sin.
He is not the cause.
NickJodi has shown you scripture that says that we are tempted of our own nature – that scripture exists.
Isn't our very nature lustful? – that is the cause of our sin. When we choose to follow that nature we sin ………. and we have all chosen that path for all have sinned ………
meerkat the question that we all asking tho is if there is a Satan, and not just a bad thought in our minds.
Luke 4:2 does tell us that there is a devil and Jesus was tempted by him. I am not convinced that Satan is the Author of all sins. IMO he puts that thought into our minds and there it takes shape. Either we will sin or not. It is our choice. Just like the Holy Spirit will take shape to do good. God puts the Holy Spirit into us. Where does human nature come from.? Do you think it is in a Baby already when it is born, or is it the bad that surrounds us by Satan, will make us sin? I do know that all have sinned, but why is the question? It is Satan that brings death to us. He is the Author of all evil is he not?
Peace and Love IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2008,12:33) Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,07:05) WJ Just thinking here………..
I thought our opponent is our carnal flesh – God created all the angels, to do his bidding – us, to do his bidding. The adversary was created to be our adversary, just because we have an adversary does not mean that God has an adversary.
God created the {tree} of knowledge of good and evil – he did not create good and then evil just magically appeared outside of his control to test God. God being all powerful means that nothing is outside of Gods control ……….. it takes away Gods power thinking that there is something that can oppose God. God created the adversary and it is used by God to test his creation.
This view point says that God has no enemies.Sounds good, however the scriptures teach that even men oppose God. There are many enemies of God. Shall I list all of the scriptures that show this.
Jesus spoke of a kingdom of darkness, satan's kingdom. Is that kingdom not “opposed” to God?
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,07:05)
If you look at the words in Job 2:3 Job was a man who only had good things and was innocent and did not experience evil until the adversary was used to test Job.Does this story sound a bit like Adam and the fall?
eschewest =
H5493
שׂוּר סוּר
sûr śûr
soor, soor
A primitive root; to turn off (literally or figuratively): – be [-head], bring, call back, decline, depart, eschew, get [you], go (aside), X grievous, lay away (by), leave undone, be past, pluck away, put (away, down), rebel, remove (to and fro), revolt, X be sour, take (away, off), turn (aside, away, in), withdraw, be without.integrity =
H8538
תּמּה
tûmmâh
toom-maw'
Feminine of H8537; innocence: – integrity.without cause=
H2600
חנּם
chinnâm
khin-nawm'
From H2580; gratis, that is, devoid of cost, reason or advantage: – without a cause (cost, wages), causeless, to cost nothing, free (-ly), innocent, for nothing (nought), in vain.Without cost seems to be related to the wages of sin is death.
Satan was allowed by God to afflict Job without taking his life even though his desire was to destroy Job who was perfect in all his ways.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although “THOU MOVEDST ME AGAINST HIM, TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT CAUSE”. Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; “BUT SAVE HIS LIFE“. Job 2:6
WJ
Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.Notice how the adversary says for God to stretch out His hand, this is because the adversary is God's messenger, and what the messenger does is through God!
Notice how the adversary didn't say he wanted Job killed, he told God to stretch out His hand and touch all that he has.
From the beginning of the first meeting between God and His messenger, the messenger did not want to kill Job. Like I previously mentioned, he wanted to destroy the life that God had given him, in order to refine his character.
Job attributes his suffering coming from God, thus reiterating that the inflicter, the adversary WAS one of God's faithful messengers!
Like I previously stated, a sinful being cannot be in the presence of God-
Ps 118:20 –This is the gate to Jehovah, The righteous enter into it.
Ps 140:13 -Only — the righteous give thanks to Thy name, The upright do dwell with Thy presence!
Ps 89:14 – Righteousness and judgment [Are] the fixed place of Thy throne, Kindness and truth go before Thy face.
Isa 63:15 Look attentively from the heavens, And see from Thy holy and beauteous habitation, Where [is] Thy zeal and Thy might? The multitude of Thy bowels and Thy mercies Towards me have refrained themselves.
Fallen angels is a myth, the bible does not even contain those two words together 'fallen angel'. The adversary in Job was not an adversary to God, he was in God's presence, where only the righteous can be.
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,09:57) The adversary that entered into Judas would clearly then have been one of the dominant thoughts of the ways of this world, of which is that money is everything. “Then ENTERED Satan into Judas” surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Luke 22:3
“And after the sop Satan ENTERED into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. John 13:27
When John and Luke penned these words they could have easily wrote that an evil thought entered them.
Instead they used a “Masculine Noun” satan (Gr Satanas) which means…
1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to
a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ
1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin
2) circumventing men by his wiles
3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases
5) by God's assistance he is overcome
6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
b) a Satan-like man
The word is used 36 times in the NT and most with the definite article, but in every case referring to a living being and not just an evil thought.
I think the NT writers inspired by the Holy Spirit and Jesus teachings knew more about satan spoken of in the OT than you do.
You say….
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,09:57) The adversary that entered into Judas would clearly then have been one of the dominant thoughts of the ways of this world, of which is that money is everything. Matt 4:6-11
So I suppose this same adversary entered into Jesus also?
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then “the devil leaveth him“, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
This story is clear. But you believe that satan entered into Jesus and that he had a conversation with himself which makes him appear to be mad or insane.
Heresy! Jesus spoke of satan and a kingdom that is not divided against itself.
You are the one denying scriptures and the clear teaching that satan is a sentient being that tempts man.
WJ
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,10:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2008,12:33) Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,07:05) WJ Just thinking here………..
I thought our opponent is our carnal flesh – God created all the angels, to do his bidding – us, to do his bidding. The adversary was created to be our adversary, just because we have an adversary does not mean that God has an adversary.
God created the {tree} of knowledge of good and evil – he did not create good and then evil just magically appeared outside of his control to test God. God being all powerful means that nothing is outside of Gods control ……….. it takes away Gods power thinking that there is something that can oppose God. God created the adversary and it is used by God to test his creation.
This view point says that God has no enemies.Sounds good, however the scriptures teach that even men oppose God. There are many enemies of God. Shall I list all of the scriptures that show this.
Jesus spoke of a kingdom of darkness, satan's kingdom. Is that kingdom not “opposed” to God?
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,07:05)
If you look at the words in Job 2:3 Job was a man who only had good things and was innocent and did not experience evil until the adversary was used to test Job.Does this story sound a bit like Adam and the fall?
eschewest =
H5493
שׂוּר סוּר
sûr śûr
soor, soor
A primitive root; to turn off (literally or figuratively): – be [-head], bring, call back, decline, depart, eschew, get [you], go (aside), X grievous, lay away (by), leave undone, be past, pluck away, put (away, down), rebel, remove (to and fro), revolt, X be sour, take (away, off), turn (aside, away, in), withdraw, be without.integrity =
H8538
תּמּה
tûmmâh
toom-maw'
Feminine of H8537; innocence: – integrity.without cause=
H2600
חנּם
chinnâm
khin-nawm'
From H2580; gratis, that is, devoid of cost, reason or advantage: – without a cause (cost, wages), causeless, to cost nothing, free (-ly), innocent, for nothing (nought), in vain.Without cost seems to be related to the wages of sin is death.
Satan was allowed by God to afflict Job without taking his life even though his desire was to destroy Job who was perfect in all his ways.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although “THOU MOVEDST ME AGAINST HIM, TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT CAUSE”. Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; “BUT SAVE HIS LIFE“. Job 2:6
WJ
Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.Notice how the adversary says for God to stretch out His hand, this is because the adversary is God's messenger, and what the messenger does is through God!
Notice how the adversary didn't say he wanted Job killed, he told God to stretch out His hand and touch all that he has.
From the beginning of the first meeting between God and His messenger, the messenger did not want to kill Job. Like I previously mentioned, he wanted to destroy the life that God had given him, in order to refine his character.
Job attributes his suffering coming from God, thus reiterating that the inflicter, the adversary WAS one of God's faithful messengers!
Like I previously stated, a sinful being cannot be in the presence of God-
Ps 118:20 –This is the gate to Jehovah, The righteous enter into it.
Ps 140:13 -Only — the righteous give thanks to Thy name, The upright do dwell with Thy presence!
Ps 89:14 – Righteousness and judgment [Are] the fixed place of Thy throne, Kindness and truth go before Thy face.
Isa 63:15 Look attentively from the heavens, And see from Thy holy and beauteous habitation, Where [is] Thy zeal and Thy might? The multitude of Thy bowels and Thy mercies Towards me have refrained themselves.
Fallen angels is a myth, the bible does not even contain those two words together 'fallen angel'. The adversary in Job was not an adversary to God, he was in God's presence, where only the righteous can be.
Hi JodiQuote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,10:52) Notice how the adversary says for God to stretch out His hand, this is because the adversary is God's messenger, and what the messenger does is through God! No. Try again!
“12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is IN YOUR POWER“; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
But you have to twist the scripture (as you have with this one), and read into the scriptures your own inference.
You continue to teach these lies against the clear teachings of Jesus and the scriptures that satan is a real sentient being against God and his people!
WJ
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,10:52) Fallen angels is a myth, the bible does not even contain those two words together 'fallen angel'. The adversary in Job was not an adversary to God, he was in God's presence, where only the righteous can be.
The myth is that you believe God cannot be everywhere at the same time, therefore sinners are in his presence, for he is everywhere.Can a sinner talk to God and experience God's presence?
I say yes. But apparantly you do not believe God is that big.
WJ
WJ
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand (3027) now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power;(3027) only upon himself put not forth, thine hand.(3027) So Satan went forth from, the presence of the LORD.Satan said to God put forth his hand, and then God said it was in Satans hand – it seems that God uses others to accomplish his will.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2008,16:22) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,10:52) Fallen angels is a myth, the bible does not even contain those two words together 'fallen angel'. The adversary in Job was not an adversary to God, he was in God's presence, where only the righteous can be.
The myth is that you believe God cannot be everywhere at the same time, therefore sinners are in his presence, for he is everywhere.Can a sinner talk to God and experience God's presence?
I say yes. But apparantly you do not believe God is that big.
WJ
Hi WJ,The sons of God and the adversary went to present themselves to the Lord, I will admit that to 'present yourself before the Lord' does not have to specifically mean that they were in the direct presence of God in heaven. But what I do want to stress is the fact that the popular non biblical story suggest that an immortal angel sinned in heaven and lost his place. I argue that immortality is not something that is lost but is received upon being made righteous. Those in God's presence who dwell in heaven do not loose their place, if that were so what then do we make of our kingdom to come? Will it not be good enough for us? Could people living in the heaven that is to come on earth, turn from their righteousness?
Once again, did not Job believe his afflictions came from God? Does not God give His powers and authority to His angels and TRUST that they will do right by Him. Did the adversary in Job fail God, or did he do as God said?
WJ, you said, “Can a sinner talk to God and experience God's presence?
I say yes. But apparantly you do not believe God is that big.”
Let's make a comparison as to how it feels when a person prays to God and feels a certain comfort coming over them through experiencing a spiritual presence of Him in their lives, very wonderful indeed, however I do not believe that this can even begin to compare to when we feel God's presence when Jesus establishes His kingdom on earth. Lets take it even a step further shall we, when Jesus gives the kingdom over to God and He comes down to actually dwell with us in His presence, that will indeed be glorious and awesome.
You seemed to have ignored these scriptures,
Ps 118:20 –This is the gate to Jehovah, The righteous enter into it.
Ps 140:13 -Only — the righteous give thanks to Thy name, The upright do dwell with Thy presence!
Ps 89:14 – Righteousness and judgment [Are] the fixed place of Thy throne, Kindness and truth go before Thy face.
Isa 63:15 Look attentively from the heavens, And see from Thy holy and beauteous habitation, Where [is] Thy zeal and Thy might? The multitude of Thy bowels and Thy mercies Towards me have refrained themselves.
Your point was really besides mine, it was nothing but a cheap untrue jab at me and my understanding. Real nice!
Hi Jodi,
Angels do right??Rev12
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Mt25
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,12:19) WJ Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand (3027) now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power;(3027) only upon himself put not forth, thine hand.(3027) So Satan went forth from, the presence of the LORD.Satan said to God put forth his hand, and then God said it was in Satans hand – it seems that God uses others to accomplish his will.
Hi MKAgain, God may allow satan to test or tempt his own, yet God himself tempts no man.
It was in satan's power to afflict Job with boils and disease yet he could not touch his life.
God does not afflict the righteous and he will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to bear….
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under It. 1 Cor 10:13
Satan is also referred to as the “tempter”…
And when the “tempter” came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. Matt 4:3
For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the “tempter” have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. 1 Thess 3:5
Surely God is sovereign and can do as he pleases by judging is own, however satan in Job's case had the “power in his hand” and afflicted Job as God allowed but was not able to take his life.
WJ
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,12:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2008,16:22) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,10:52) Fallen angels is a myth, the bible does not even contain those two words together 'fallen angel'. The adversary in Job was not an adversary to God, he was in God's presence, where only the righteous can be.
The myth is that you believe God cannot be everywhere at the same time, therefore sinners are in his presence, for he is everywhere.Can a sinner talk to God and experience God's presence?
I say yes. But apparantly you do not believe God is that big.
WJ
Hi WJ,The sons of God and the adversary went to present themselves to the Lord, I will admit that to 'present yourself before the Lord' does not have to specifically mean that they were in the direct presence of God in heaven. But what I do want to stress is the fact that the popular non biblical story suggest that an immortal angel sinned in heaven and lost his place. I argue that immortality is not something that is lost but is received upon being made righteous. Those in God's presence who dwell in heaven do not loose their place, if that were so what then do we make of our kingdom to come? Will it not be good enough for us? Could people living in the heaven that is to come on earth, turn from their righteousness?
Once again, did not Job believe his afflictions came from God? Does not God give His powers and authority to His angels and TRUST that they will do right by Him. Did the adversary in Job fail God, or did he do as God said?
WJ, you said, “Can a sinner talk to God and experience God's presence?
I say yes. But apparantly you do not believe God is that big.”
Let's make a comparison as to how it feels when a person prays to God and feels a certain comfort coming over them through experiencing a spiritual presence of Him in their lives, very wonderful indeed, however I do not believe that this can even begin to compare to when we feel God's presence when Jesus establishes His kingdom on earth. Lets take it even a step further shall we, when Jesus gives the kingdom over to God and He comes down to actually dwell with us in His presence, that will indeed be glorious and awesome.
You seemed to have ignored these scriptures,
Ps 118:20 –This is the gate to Jehovah, The righteous enter into it.
Ps 140:13 -Only — the righteous give thanks to Thy name, The upright do dwell with Thy presence!
Ps 89:14 – Righteousness and judgment [Are] the fixed place of Thy throne, Kindness and truth go before Thy face.
Isa 63:15 Look attentively from the heavens, And see from Thy holy and beauteous habitation, Where [is] Thy zeal and Thy might? The multitude of Thy bowels and Thy mercies Towards me have refrained themselves.
Your point was really besides mine, it was nothing but a cheap untrue jab at me and my understanding. Real nice!
Hi JodiQuote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,12:38) Your point was really besides mine, it was nothing but a cheap untrue jab at me and my understanding. Real nice!
Not at all. The point is that God can be approached by a sinner and in Job's case satan the adversary did just that.You continue insisting that no evil can come in God's presence and post a couple of scriptures speaking of the saints “dwelling in his presence” yet you are denying that Jesus said he saw satan fall from heaven and other scriptures that their was war in heaven. Is it possible that you have not realized there is more than one heavenly realm?
Of course you would not see it that way because it may disolve your theory that God cannot have a sinner or fallen being in his presence.
Tell me Jodi, at the great white throne judgment will the sinners stand before him or not?
I can't wait to hear how you explain this one away.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2008,14:43) Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,12:19) WJ Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand (3027) now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power;(3027) only upon himself put not forth, thine hand.(3027) So Satan went forth from, the presence of the LORD.Satan said to God put forth his hand, and then God said it was in Satans hand – it seems that God uses others to accomplish his will.
Hi MKAgain, God may allow satan to test or tempt his own, yet God himself tempts no man.
It was in satan's power to afflict Job with boils and disease yet he could not touch his life.
God does not afflict the righteous and he will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to bear….
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under It. 1 Cor 10:13
Satan is also referred to as the “tempter”…
And when the “tempter” came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. Matt 4:3
For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the “tempter” have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. 1 Thess 3:5
Surely God is sovereign and can do as he pleases by judging is own, however satan in Job's case had the “power in his hand” and afflicted Job as God allowed but was not able to take his life.
WJ
So God is in control of how much and who Satan can tempt?I agree with that, God has said that he is doing all according to his will – he is sovereign.
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