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Hi Jodi,
The serpent is a vessel.
God judges as He sees fit and we do not involve ourselves in those things.Hi Jodi,
Donkeys have spoken according to scripture.
Personal experience is of little use compared with sacred scripture.Hi Jodi,
Without reliance on sacred scripture can anyone know the truth about themselves or anything else?
We are so weak and prone to deception.Hi Jodi,
You say
“Every sin that I have ever committed I can say FOR SURE came from within myself, just exactly as Jesus said they would. Any deception that I have experienced in my life has come through the means of either my own mind and faulty reasoning, or it has come through the lies of another human being.A supernatural being has never lied to me, nor anyone else I know.
Nick, I have stated in more then one post that the serpent would either have to represent deception coming out of Eve's own mind, or the deception came through Adam. “
So you and Adam and Eve are prone to deception.
Your reasoning is completely unreliable as you have stated.
If that is the case how do you know your perceptions and the conclusions you draw from them are true?
Quote (david @ Sep. 08 2008,23:27) Quote (david @ Sep. 09 2008,10:51) Quote Satan means adversary and there is not one single scripture that says that the adversary is an evil supernatural being. Satan is said to be the man who has in mind the things of men.
Revelations 12 shows the old serpent and Satan to be one and the same.Therefore we can conclude that Eve was having a conversation with a human who has in mind the things of humans.
The Bible doesn't contradict itself. If it does contradict itself, then our conversation is meaningless anyone.
So, who was this human?
As well, just as you keep asking me how Satan can influence others, I now ask the same of you: How can Satan (the person you think Satan is) influence and mislead the “entire inhabited earth”?
REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”And of course, flesh (man) does not reside in heaven, yet verse 8 and 12 say that Satan was removed from heaven.
And, heaven is here contrasted with earth, so in this case, “heaven” probably actually means “heaven” (as opposed to the earth.)How would you answer such things?
Hi jodi. I'm wondering if you could explain this post.
David the bible is very clear as to what influences and misleads the 'entire inhabited earth'.Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,* who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Re 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Re 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
The ignorant human carnal mind deceives the whole world and it is the driving force behind the kings and their kingdoms of which produce evil. To have in mind the things of men is to be carnally minded, it is not to be under the influence of a fallen angel.
Those that dwell with Christ for the thousand years ARE SPIRITUALLY minded, the carnal mind was put to death, but will have to be released for awhile after the thousand years.
Daniel 10: 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.” 15 When he had spoken such words to me, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And suddenly, one having the likeness of the sons F34 of men touched my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke, saying to him who stood before me, “My lord, because of the vision my sorrows have overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength. 17 For how can this servant of my lord talk with you, my lord? As for me, no strength remains in me now, nor is any breath left in me.” 18 Then again, the one having the likeness of a man touched me and strengthened me. 19 And he said, “O man greatly beloved, fear not! Peace be to you; be strong, yes, be strong!” So when he spoke to me I was strengthened, and said, “Let my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.” 20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.
Daniel 11:36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God F44 of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38 But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain. 40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day
and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.Does not the last few verses sound like Christians who have overcome their persecutor through remaining faithful to God through their testimony? Who then would their accuser be? In the beginning of Revelation we see that the devil are those who were about to throw Christ’s faithful followers into prison.
In my NIV Archaeological bible at the beginning of Revelation it says under the heading Cultural Facts and Highlights, “The Book of Revelation was written at a time when the Roman authorities were beginning to enforce emperor worship. Christians, who held that “Jesus is Lord”, faced increasing persecution, including martyrdom. The apostle John had been exiled to the island of Patmos for his activities as a Christian missionary, and believers were being warned against coming opposition and oppression. Some Christians were advocating compromise with the Roman government, and John wrote in part to encourage believers to stand firm in the trying days ahead.”
We see in Daniel that a time was to come where Michael would fight against Kings. We are told in Revelation that the dragon represents kings.
In Daniel we see that Michael was to stand up against a man, a man who would be wicked because he would follow his OWN will, exalting himself to the heavens as a god.
Revelation 17 we see the dragon of whom Michael fights are kings and that they FALL.
David your problem is you are following in the traditions of men who took the symbolism in Revelation and used it to fit their previously held pagan ideas. The word angel stands for messenger, which could mean men or God’s messengers. Clearly Michael is fighting with men, for we are directly told the dragon represents men and the dragon’s messengers are men also.
Are you trying to tell us that the dragon represents men who then are being influenced by some celestial being? There is no scriptural base for such a thing. Scripture directly tells us that the kings are being influenced through their OWN desires. There is not a scripture that tells us that celestial beings cause us to follow our own desires.
Our NATURE causes us to follow our own desires. Our fear of death can lead us to disregard others and sin through selfishness.
They overcame him, by the blood of the lamb. Those in Christ were able to overcome the accuser by the word of their testimony. They did not love their lives, but were willing to die to remain in the word of God.
The blood of the lamb was shed for what reason? What are we told that it accomplished? What are we told in the bible that draws us to follow our own desires?
Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
The power of death comes through the fear of it, the fear of death is pre-wired in our brain. Self preservation and reproduction are the two most basic instincts living organisms have.
If any scripture was a clear indicator of who the devil is I believe this one is clear, if indeed one is listening to the word of God and earnestly seeking to gain the truth from it. Please, Please read and think about what this scripture is saying.
The devil was destroyed in those following Christ because their fear of death was destroyed because in Christ they were able to see God’s promise of eternal life.
The driving force that causes us to sin is our fear of death! Our fear of death comes from our very nature. We are creatures like all the rest of the animals who have been given natural instincts that enable us the drive to survive. As human beings however, we have the ability to react and make choices not based on our instincts alone but on a higher level of brain activity that differentiates us from the animals. We have been given a more complex brain that has the ability to store large amounts of information, process that information as positive or negative, good or bad. Our natural instincts work to serve one thing, and that is the self. This part of our brain function is located in the center of the brain. Our outer brain however, which is the part that separates us from the rest of the animal world, can control our natural instincts
Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God…. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
God does not want us to obey our weak flesh. God put forth the enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman. This was the knowledge of death (serpents seed), which Christ (seed of the woman) overcame through the knowledge of eternal life!! The old man represents those who live according to the knowledge of death, the new man are those who present themselves “as being alive from the dead”.
Colossians 3:8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
Ephesians 2:14 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ac 13:10 and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?
1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Christ came for the purpose to destroy the works of the devil. Christ came and did not walk according to the flesh, but he walked according to the Spirit. God sent Jesus to CONDEMN SIN in the FLESH. To be carnally minded is deat
h, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. To be a son of a devil, is to walk according to the flesh. Our carnal mind is what draws us to serve our flesh. Jesus destroyed the carnal mind through being spiritually minded.There is nothing that even remotely hints at the idea that Jesus Christ came to destroy some supernatural being.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 15 2008,13:51) Hi Jodi,
Is your personal experience sufficient to use for others?Col2
18Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,19and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
We need to hold on to the HEAD and ensure we do not oppose the teaching of the one who is the TRUTH
The teacher of the TRUTH,Mt 18:7 “Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!”
Mt 15:18 “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”
Nick, it does not say, “woe to the world because of the influence of fallen angels.”
Nick the bible does not say that Jesus was sent into the world to destroy a fallen angel. Even if Jesus did destroy a fallen angel we would still have to deal with the abundance of sin that comes from our own hearts. The world would still be filled with murders, fornication, theft, false witnesses, blasphemies, evil thoughts and evil actions.
Nick, just what are those evil sins that fallen angels get us to commit, it seems all the sins have been taken according to the work coming from our own hearts.
Hi Jodi,
Just like the serpent.
Judas was entered by satan
Man pays the price for the god whom he servesQuote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 15 2008,14:46) Hi Jodi,
How can you be sure?
Because not only is there no mention of Jesus destroying a fallen angel or the works of a fallen angel, but there is clear scriptures that tell us just exactly what it was that he did destroy.Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 15 2008,13:52) Hi Jodi,
The serpent is a vessel.
God judges as He sees fit and we do not involve ourselves in those things.
Just what are you talking about in relation to my posts?Hi Jodi,
So Eph 2 speaks of the division between Jew and Gentile being abolished in Christ.11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
So how does this teaching of Paul negate the teaching of Jesus about the Devil?
Hi Jodi,
God judged the serpent for allowing himself to be used against God's ways as a vessel for the devil.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 15 2008,13:56) Hi Jodi,
Donkeys have spoken according to scripture.
Personal experience is of little use compared with sacred scripture.
The donkey talked through the power of God.So Nick are you trying to say that you believe that fallen angels did and still do deceive man through the use of possessing animals and getting them to speak deception?
Where is your proof, where are your examples of these occurrences?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 15 2008,14:11) Hi Jodi,
Without reliance on sacred scripture can anyone know the truth about themselves or anything else?
We are so weak and prone to deception.
Hi Nick,My understanding whole heartedly relies on scripture. IMO yours does not.
I trust Jesus when he says that evil comes from a man's heart, therefore when I see the word adversary in the bible I keep to Jesus's own words and not man's traditions.
Hi Jodi,
You have shared your experience with deception and false reasoning before.
Can you trust yourself now?Hi Jodi,
Indeed from man's heart comes what he is full of.
His mouth pours forth his owners fruit-evil and deception.
Jesus came to set men free from this dominion to sin and satan.
Cleansing the cup to be enabled hold the wondrous treasure of the Spirit of GodHi Jodi,
Sin has conceived [jas]and lives in us and does it's work as Paul explained in Rom717Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 15 2008,15:30) Hi Jodi,
You have shared your experience with deception and false reasoning before.
Can you trust yourself now?
I go by what makes the best sense to me according to the knowledge that I have.I was raised being told that fallen angels existed and that some angel named Lucifer fell and is now Satan causing lots of problems and evils in the world. So YES, when you say that I have shared before deceptions that have been given to me, indeed I have. I would have to chalk this one up to probably the biggest deception every made.
As far as false reasoning, before I was strictly believing what I was told, I really had no reasoning of my own on the subject. Once I started reading the bible, Satan representing a fallen angel did not add up. The more and more I read scripture the more I was firmly able to realize that I had been deceived by my parents and my church.
Nick, I trust in God, and I trust that I am learning the truth bit by bit. Do I think I know everything and have it all figured out, hardly! Do I honestly believe that scriptures show that the only influence of evil in our world comes from the created creature known as man, yes I most certainly do.
To be honest Nick, I was reluctant to answer this post of yours at all because I feel that it is a load of crap. Your obviously just trying to divert from the subject matter because you have nothing valuable to use to defend your position.
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