Satan

[NickHassan]

Quote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,17:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,21:44) Hi GB, If the gospel of Jesus was only true in the time it was written why does it fascinate you now? I believe Gene is saying that scripture can be better understood today given the knowledge that God has increased upon us. If God didn't have something left to work in man, such as knowledge that could benefit our understanding of scripture and life, then Yeshua would have returned a long time ago. Scripture wasn't only true back then, it is FAR better understood now, because man has, by God, exceeded in knowledge.

Hi Jodi,
Has spiritual knowledge increased along with the vanity of men? No it has been smothered by logic and speculations. Is there faith on the earth?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Satan not only exists but has a united Kingdom.
Matthew 12:26
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

[Jodi]

Hi Lightenup,

Glad you have joined this topic.

Actually I don't think that the scripture says that the spirits came out by their own action. Verse 31 says, “The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.” 32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.

Mark 5:12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned. 14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid.

Notice what is said just prior in Mark 5:25 “Where is your faith?” he asked his disciples. In fear and amazement they asked one another, “Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him.”

Through Yeshua's words, Yeshua has the power to heal and change the course of things. He speaks to the wind and the water and they OBEY him. He speaks to fevers and other infirmities, including mental illnesses and they obey him as well.

Now WJ was trying to make the point earlier that the water and wind never talk to Jesus as the demons clearly did, so basically my point is lame. But to follow up on that, I would like to say that people with mental illness do in FACT speak, and when they speak sometimes it can be the actual person speaking or sometimes it could be the mental illness the unclean/evil spirit speaking. Until you have studied the complexities of the brain and the affects that unclean spirits/mental illnesses can have on people, then what I am saying will probably not seem as clear.

Because the unclean spirits speak does not prove that they must be celestial beings. That reason of itself does not discredit my understanding.

Why would the evil celestial spirits want to go into the pigs? Are they themselves crazy? Why would they then have the pigs go crazy to the point of killing them?

Man and animals do in fact share the same diseases. When we want to find a cure for a disease we do in fact inject that disease into animals. Christ inflicting the pigs, when telling the unclean spirits to go into the pigs, and the pigs then going crazy to the point of drowning themselves, makes the identity of the 'unclean spirits' to me seem much more likely to be an illness then it does some celestial being.

Let me ask you this Lightenup, this 'spirit world,' you are referring to that is evil, where is this world revealed in scripture? Where does this world come from and where is it? What type of beings are there that dwell in it, and where do they get their powers from?

When reading the bible it is very helpful to know or remember that-

-Satan simply is the word for adversary.
-Devil is the word for liar, or slanderer.
-Angel's or messengers in the bible, are always FOLLOWING God when they are interacting with men.
-The word 'spirit' in the entire bible if you were to word search it, is never referred to as representing supernatural beings who disobey God and interfere with man's affairs. NEVER!
-Demon can represent false god, or evil/unclean spirit

Like I said the word 'spirit' in the bible is never linked to a celestial being that is against God. The Old Testament however shows us that God brings upon man evil spirits.

Judges 9:23 God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem, who acted treacherously against Abimelech.

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.

1Sa 16:23 Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him.

2 Kings 19:5 When King Hezekiah's officials came to Isaiah, 6 Isaiah said to them, “Tell your master, 'This is what the Lord says: Do not be afraid of what you have heard–those words with which the underlings of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me. 7 Listen! I am going to put such a spirit in him that when he hears a certain report, he will return to his own country, and there I will have him cut down with the sword.'”

2Ch 18:22 “So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

Job 4:15 A spirit glided past my face, and the hair on my body stood on end. 16 It stopped, but I could not tell what it was. A form stood before my eyes, and I heard a hushed voice: 17 'Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker? 18 If God places no trust in his servants, if he charges his angels with error, 19 how much more those who live in houses of clay, whose foundations are in the dust, who are crushed more readily than a moth! 20 Between dawn and dusk they are broken to pieces; unnoticed, they perish forever. 21 Are not the cords of their tent pulled up, so that they die without wisdom?'

Isa 19:14 The Lord has poured into them a spirit of dizziness; they make Egypt stagger in all that she does, as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit.

In case you missed this scripture I will post it again as well,
Deuteronomy 28:28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind.

We are given no scripture that says a celestial being against God holds the same powers as Him, and uses them on man.

And yet, I am accused of deny the simple truth?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Did you think the work of any being was outside of the authority of God?
Satan is not a free agent.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
So Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 15 2008,14:18)

Quote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,06:18) Hi Jodi, Thanks for sharing your personal information. I misunderstood when you mentioned Indian ancestory in your earlier post. Even the name Jodi is similar to our Indian names. Nice memories of yours of Rogue River. Have nice time when you go there. I do enjoy your posts especially posts on conception of Jesus and denying the existence of real Satan. Still I am not convinced on denying real Satan and devil. May be I have to go through the sites that our brother Gene mentioned in his post. I only request you to come down to my level who only believed the existence of real devil and Satan so far and explain Satan and devil. I know you also might have believed their existence earlier. If you bring out the background how you understood this new concept of denying the existence of real Satan and devil may be helpful to me. Thanks and love to you Adam Hi Brother Adam, I am the person who is always asking why? Why did God have to do things this way and not another way, in regards to teaching mankind. I use to make up these little charts where I would have God and righteousness, man and sin, and then Satan as the concept of a fallen angel tempting us. The scriptures never seem to fit with the story I was told of the fallen angels, and the idea that an all knowing God would need to use a fallen angel for our progress into righteousness didn't seem right either. A few years ago when I started my quest in search of truth, and had access to the computer, I began doing searches on different biblical topics. I would read different doctrines from different Christian churches and compare their understandings with the scriptures that they used. When I started a focus on the identity of Satan I came across the doctrine of the Christadelphians, who unlike any other church I found had a completely different understanding to the word satan. Their doctrine brought my attention to the Young Literals translation of the bible, where you don't find the word Satan at all but only adversary. As well, the fact that the word angel simply meant messenger caught my interest as well and led me to do a word search using YLT on the word messenger. I found not one example of a jealous fallen messenger or messengers who interferes with what happens here on earth. The only messengers that deal with mankind in the bible are those who are following God's instruction. In my search I found that there were no scriptures that linked God's created messengers to that of the adversary against God or the devil/slanderer, we see in the bible. I then went back to the other church doctrines and looked at what scriptures they used to show their understanding of the identity of Satan and the fall of angels. I found their use of scripture in great lack of proving their doctrine to be true. In all honesty, I felt like a fool for ever buying in to it. The evidence they use is in my opinion quite pathetic, it is a work of one poor translation or addition of ideas from scripture added to another. After that I then went on to reread much of the New Testament under this new light, and boy did everything seem to make a heck of a lot more sense. More importantly I could actually apply the scriptures more to my own personal life. I as well, felt like I had been freed. The fear that people have that there is some unknown force that can move us to do evil, and we don't know when or where it will strike is really quite horrible, and it indeed takes away from the truth as to what we should actually be fearing, and that is God's wrath on those who do evil and follow their own selfish indulgences. I know a lot of people who are preoccupied with the power of some fallen angel, and how it affects them. They live in fear of this being and what he might do to them or might lead them to do. It is pure nonsense. We are to fear the Lord and His powers, because He hates ungodliness, and we continually act ungodly. People like Nick and Irene make it sound as if the only true adversary to God is a fallen angel, and that we are just mindless puppets under his control, following his lead. You said, “If you bring out the background how you understood this new concept of denying the existence of real Satan and devil may be helpful to me.” My new concept as you called it Adam, does not deny the existence of a real Satan or a real devil. That would be like saying there is nothing in the world that opposes God. Scripture tells us that our very nature is in opposition to God. And no wonder our nature is in opposition to God, for He is the all knowing, all powerful, righteous eternal Father, and we are the ignorant dependent mortal of which He created. Our children go through a period where they are in opposition to us as well, they think that they know that which they don't, and they are certainly often stubborn to learning the truth. I hope this has helped a little. I look forward to discussing this more with you. Love to you, Jodi[/quote] Hi Sis Jodi, I am very much thankful to you for sharing your experience and the background of accepting these new revelations on Satan and Devil. I now can get some ideas on that. I do believe that no fallen angel has become Satan or devil. We are being tempted by our own old sinful nature which drags us. But God is the one who helps us to overcome them. I have also read the articles on Satan and devil on Christadelphian website but I was not so much convinced fully. Now I am going through Sir Isaac Newton Project on devil. I may understand them differently. As I see this debate getting so much hot and friction sum. Please be patient in conveying the message I have already noticed that in your posts. May God bless you Love and peace to you Adam

Hi GM,
Why do you so readily turn from the teachings of Jesus to those of men?

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2008,13:55)

Quote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,10:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,15:13) Hi Jodi, Genesis is a record of events. Men are vessels, even pigs and donkeys are vessels. Jesus spent much of his last few years casting out demonic spirits. Yes men and all animals are carriers of diseases. If you mentioning the donkey is to refer to what happened in Numbers, that is not relevant here, it is completely different then what transpired in Genesis. Where in scripture does it show that the word 'spirit' in these scriptures represent some sort of invisible flying being that holds the same powers of God able to inflict man with infirmities? Why can't the serpent be a symbol of something and not a vessel? What scripture do you have that says the serpent acted as a vessel? The punishment given to the serpent, was given to the serpent. There was no punishment given to a hidden being. Why do you deny Mark 7? Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” What do you take this to mean? Hi Jodi, We await your explanation on the donkey and the Job 1-2 details. Meanwhile you as asked. Mk7 18And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. So what enters a man here is physical. It is food and drink and it finishes in the loo, while the inside of the cup needs cleansing from uninvited guests we are born with and have given life by our choices to sin. The woman is true Israel [Rev] and Satan has always attacked her weak spots. Praise God we are to be given the ability rather to crush him. [Rom 16.20]

So the woman's offspring represents the true house of Israel, and the serpent's offspring represents?

Nick you never clarified your problem with the punishment given to the serpent. You are trying to attribute it to the serpent AND to a sinful angel, but the scripture does no such thing. The punishment given to the serpent shows that the serpent was not representative of being a mere vessel.

Where in scripture does Jesus mention cleansing from uninvited guests. Are we reading the same bible?

He said out of the heart of man comes sin, not from uninvited guests.

Nick why do you so readily turn from the teachings of Jesus to those of men?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Satan is the father of many opposers of truth.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
God is sovereign.
He punished the serpent vessel in His righteousness.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
This speaks of the human vessel.
Cups are vessels.

Matthew 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Matthew 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Luke 11:39
And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

[Jodi]

Hi Nick,

If you connect the scriptures together they show quite clearly that the devil represents our sinful nature.

Ro 7:5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

Ro 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil–

Yeshua had to be flesh and blood and die in that flesh and blood in order to kill the devil, kind of an odd thing to do if the devil is some powerful spirit being. However it makes complete sense if the devil represents man's sinful nature. Recall that just before Yeshua's death we are told that 'he became sin for us,' and thus dieing as SIN, he destroyed sin.

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Col 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,

Is it not clear that the devil, the barrier, is the sinful nature of man.

Where in scripture do we see the connection of the devil representing a sinful celestial being?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Our mutual sinful nature does not exist.
It is not a kingdom.

We do not connect the scriptures to make amagamated truth.
That is how men make their own doctrines and hold them up.
Each verse can stand alone and is proven by other verses.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2008,06:58)

Hello, This is a new subject for me to post in.  I haven't read many of the posts here so please forgive me if this passage has already been throughly hashed through.  It probably has, so if any can lead me to the page(s) of those posts I would be grateful.  My understanding of the following passage is that evil spirits can exist within a man and are subject to Christ, can exit the man and enter pigs.  These evil spirits would not be a part of the natural man but something from the spirit world that could torment man and dwell within him. Matthew 8:28-34 28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” 30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” 32 And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. 33 The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, including what had happened to the demoniacs. 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region. These verbs “came” and “went” are written in the active voice in the greek and therefore the subject is doing the action themself and not written in the passive voice which is used when the action is being done to the subject. For example: “And they came out and went into the swine…” Since “came” and “went” are written in the active voice it tells us that the “demons” themselves came out by their own action and they went into the swine by their own actions.  Of course, they were doing these actions under the authority of Christ. I do not see this particular passage as mental illness that doctors today would just take care of with medicine.  A mental illness does not do its own coming out of a man and then do its own entering into pigs.  This passage is about something far different, IMO. Thank you for your thoughts, LU

LU

Excellent post. The Greek and Hebrew scholars would have translated the scriptures differently if the Greek words would have allowed them to.

None of the major translations on Biblegateway.com or Blueletterbible.org shows the translations to read that the “devils” were the mans unclean spirit or some mental illness that went into swine and caused them to commit suicide. There are not even any footnotes of such. In fact as far as I know, none of the major commentators even implied such.

Yeshua would have at some point (with all the examples we have of unclean spirits and demons being cast out), explained that they were not spirit beings but rather sicknesses or mental illnesses.

Instead he speaks of satan having a kingdom that is not divided against itself and that he saw being cast down to the earth.

Fallen angel? I don’t know. But an evil sentient being that is now the ruler and prince of the kingdom of darkness. This is undeniably scriptural.

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,18:01)

Hi Lightenup, Glad you have joined this topic. Actually I don't think that the scripture says that the spirits came out by their own action. Verse 31 says, “The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.” 32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. Mark 5:12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.”  13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned. 14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. Notice what is said just prior in Mark 5:25 “Where is your faith?” he asked his disciples. In fear and amazement they asked one another, “Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him.” Through Yeshua's words, Yeshua has the power to heal and change the course of things. He speaks to the wind and the water and they OBEY him. He speaks to fevers and other infirmities, including mental illnesses and they obey him as well. Now WJ was trying to make the point earlier that the water and wind never talk to Jesus as the demons clearly did, so basically my point is lame. But to follow up on that, I would like to say that people with mental illness do in FACT speak, and when they speak sometimes it can be the actual person speaking or sometimes it could be the mental illness the unclean/evil spirit speaking. Until you have studied the complexities of the brain and the affects that unclean spirits/mental illnesses can have on people, then what I am saying will probably not seem as clear. Because the unclean spirits speak does not prove that they must be celestial beings. That reason of itself does not discredit my understanding. Why would the evil celestial spirits want to go into the pigs? Are they themselves crazy? Why would they then have the pigs go crazy to the point of killing them? Man and animals do in fact share the same diseases. When we want to find a cure for a disease we do in fact inject that disease into animals. Christ inflicting the pigs, when telling the unclean spirits to go into the pigs, and the pigs then going crazy to the point of drowning themselves, makes the identity of the 'unclean spirits' to me seem much more likely to be an illness then it does some celestial being. Let me ask you this Lightenup, this 'spirit world,' you are referring to that is evil, where is this world revealed in scripture? Where does this world come from and where is it? What type of beings are there that dwell in it, and where do they get their powers from? When reading the bible it is very helpful to know or remember that- -Satan simply is the word for adversary. -Devil is the word for liar, or slanderer. -Angel's or messengers in the bible, are always FOLLOWING God when they are interacting with men. -The word 'spirit' in the entire bible if you were to word search it, is never referred to as representing supernatural beings who disobey God and interfere with man's affairs. NEVER! -Demon can represent false god, or evil/unclean spirit Like I said the word 'spirit' in the bible is never linked to a celestial being that is against God. The Old Testament however shows us that God brings upon man evil spirits. Judges 9:23 God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem, who acted treacherously against Abimelech. 1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him. 1Sa 16:23 Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him. 2 Kings 19:5 When King Hezekiah's officials came to Isaiah, 6 Isaiah said to them, “Tell your master, 'This is what the Lord says: Do not be afraid of what you have heard–those words with which the underlings of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me. 7 Listen! I am going to put such a spirit in him that when he hears a certain report, he will return to his own country, and there I will have him cut down with the sword.'” 2Ch 18:22 “So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.” Job 4:15 A spirit glided past my face, and the hair on my body stood on end.  16 It stopped, but I could not tell what it was. A form stood before my eyes, and I heard a hushed voice: 17 'Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker? 18 If God places no trust in his servants, if he charges his angels with error, 19 how much more those who live in houses of clay, whose foundations are in the dust, who are crushed more readily than a moth! 20 Between dawn and dusk they are broken to pieces; unnoticed, they perish forever. 21 Are not the cords of their tent pulled up, so that they die without wisdom?' Isa 19:14 The Lord has poured into them a spirit of dizziness; they make Egypt stagger in all that she does, as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit. In case you missed this scripture I will post it again as well, Deuteronomy 28:28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. We are given no scripture that says a celestial being against God holds the same powers as Him, and uses them on man.   And yet, I am accused of deny the simple truth?

Hey Jodi,
Thanks for your response.

I don't have the time to address your whole post but I do have a few thoughts in response.

Quote

Actually I don't think that the scripture says that the spirits came out by their own action.

It is the greek active voice that the verbs were written in that tells us that the spirits did the coming out and the entering into the pigs. These actions didn't happen to the spirits, they (the spirits) did the actions. As I stated in my previous post, they did these actions in response to the Lord's direction, no question about that. Do you understand the concept of the active and passive voice in greek?

Quote

Why would the evil celestial spirits want to go into the pigs? Are they themselves crazy? Why would they then have the pigs go crazy to the point of killing them? Man and animals do in fact share the same diseases. When we want to find a cure for a disease we do in fact inject that disease into animals. Christ inflicting the pigs, when telling the unclean spirits to go into the pigs, and the pigs then going crazy to the point of drowning themselves, makes the identity of the 'unclean spirits' to me seem much more likely to be an illness the n it does some celestial being.

It is obvious to me that Christ is not inflicting the pigs in order to find a cure here. That is no where stated in this passage. Not only is it not stated, it certainly didn't bring about any cure. Wouldn't you agree?

You ask “why would the evil celestial spirits want to go into the pigs?” What about why did Christ allow them to go into the pigs, especially if it were going to kill them? Why were the spirits afraid to go into waterless places? I see alot more going on here than Christ curing some mental disease. I don't know if we will know the answers before we ourselves experience the spiritual dimension though.

Gotta go make some dinner for my hungry crew. Thanks for your time Jodi.

Bless you,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2008,10:11)

Hi, So Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

NH

Good point. Who is this devil that sinned from the beginning in which Yeshua came to destroy his works?

What a denial of scripture to believe that the devil is not a real sentient being, especially when we see the pronouns and definite article being used with masculine nouns in describing him. Even verbs describing his actions.

Blatant denial of the text!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Quite.
How strong a hold the thoughts of men can have!

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2008,16:00)

Hi Jodi, This speaks of the human vessel. Cups are vessels. Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Matthew 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

Nick that proves nothing about celestial beings having powers to possess our bodies and our minds and entice us to sin.

There is not one scripture that shows any such thing, but we do have many many scriptures that say what draws us to sin is our OWN hearts and minds.

Why do you choose to deny this simple truth and go on and on about what does not exist in the bible?

Man is said to be at enmity with God.
There is not one scripture that says sinful angels are at enmity with God and man.

So when I see the word adversary in the bible I am going to follow the truth GIVEN within the bible, and conclude that it is representative of man.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Where does scripture say celestial bodies possess men??
Satan has a kingdom and his minions do his work here.

Why be a king and do the work yourself?

[Jodi]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2008,16:29)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2008,10:11) Hi, So Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. NH Good point. Who is this devil that sinned from the beginning in which Yeshua came to destroy his works? What a denial of scripture to believe that the devil is not a real sentient being, especially when we see the pronouns and definite article being used with masculine nouns in describing him. Even verbs describing his actions. Blatant denial of the text! WJ

Oh, yes what a denial of scripture since scripture is plastered all over with words that say sinful celestial beings are the cause of this worlds evils.

Let's not forget that the bible says through one man sin entered the world.

There is not a scripture that says that a sinful celestial being brought that sin to man.

What drew Cain to sin? Who let's not forget was a liar and a murderer and was the first human offspring born.

Genesis 4:6 Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”

Why did God want to destroy man and earth?

Genesis 6:5 The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

WJ can you give me scripture that identifies who this sentient being is, of which you believe represents the devil?

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2008,10:37)

Hi GM, Why do you so readily turn from the teachings of Jesus to those of men?

Hi brother Nick,
So you have come up with conclusion on me. See my post clearly there, I said” I am not convinced fully on these understandings”. Why do you target me always may be because I support brothers and sisters to share their views freely. I have a open mind that doesn't mean I always agree everything that is told here.

Please provide an answer to our Sister Jodi regarding which fallen angel(celestial being) has become Satan and which is always tempting us? Which fallen angel called Satan(sin) was destroyed by Jesus in his body on the cross?

I appreciate reasoning not just quoting some scriptures. Eeverybody knows scriptures here. Don't think they are ignorant of them the problem with many of us is we are not applying scriptures in a right way. Please allow them to share what they understood on certain concepts otherwise they remain misunderstood forever. This is what in my opinion.
Thanks and peace to you
Adam

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