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Quote (dirtyknections @ June 10 2008,10:07) Jodi..you asked can I show you an example of a man following a fallen angel…well here you go.. Matthew 8:28-34… 28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[a] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29″What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”
32He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
Matthew 9:32…32While they were going out, a man who was demon-possessed and could not talk was brought to Jesus.
Matthew 12:22… 22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see.
Acts 19:13-16…13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
Acts 16:16-18…16Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
1 Timothy 1:20…20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
So Jodi…do not these evil spirits in these scriptures cause people to be “violent” and “practice divination”…are not violence and divination sins against GOD?
DK, are you not aware of what people are capable of doing when being inflicted by a mental illness?I brought this over from the fallen angels thread-
The Old Testament tells us that Yah brings on evil to man as a form of punishment for sin. We are also told that there is no other power that creates this evil, this darkness. Only the LORD brings cursing on man. As well, I have repeatedly shown that the cause of man’s sin is always said to come from within man’s own heart.
We know that for every truth, falsehood about that truth is created by man. The Philistines, Moabites, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Babylonians were all people Yah warned the Israelites about on behalf of their false gods. The religion behind these people all had celestial demons that were believed to cause the ills of which we know Yah creates on mankind. At times in history Jews were put into captivity by those who believed in demons who caused man’s problems. Is it just a coincidence that non canonical writings by Jews about influencing sinful angels, were written upon and after these times of captivity?
It seems that some way or another, Jews became convinced that the false gods indeed had a source of legitimate power. Was it by this reason that the idea of fallen angels was produced?
Exodus 4:11 “So the Lord said to him,” Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?”
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
1Ki 22:23 And now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee — evil.'
2Ch 18:22 And, now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee — evil.'
Jud 9:23 and God sendeth an evil spirit between Abimelech and the masters of Shechem, and the masters of Shechem deal treacherously with Abimelech,
Psalms 78:49 He sendeth on them the fury of His anger, Wrath, and indignation, and distress — A discharge of evil messengers.
Jer 35:17 therefore thus said Jehovah, God of Hosts, God of Israel: Lo, I am bringing in unto Judah, and unto all inhabitants of Jerusalem, all the evil that I have spoken against them, because I have spoken unto them, and they have not hearkened, yea, I call to them, and they have not answered
Jer 44:2 `Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Ye — ye have seen all the evil that I have brought in on Jerusalem, and on all the cities of Judah, and lo, they [are] a waste this day, and there is none dwelling in them,
Scripture has firmly established where man’s evil inflictions come. Yah sends evil messengers and evil spirits to punish mankind.
Here we have in Deuteronomy the kicker of all chapters to prove my case, so please open your eyes and here what the scriptures have to say…Deuteronomy 28:14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
De 28:20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.
27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
This description of Yah’s infliction on man is exactly what we see with the demon possessed people in the New Testament.
Diseases and illnesses have been inflicted by Yah as punishment to sinners, which Yah has allowed to be passed down from generation to generation, often growing worse in affliction. Yehsua however, comes and heals people who have inherited their ancestors curses.Here we see what Yah does to Nebuchadnezzar Da 4:16 Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.
De 32:17 – They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear.
Another word for false gods are demons. Demons represent the delusions of man. We are told that the false gods are not real and that they have no powe
r. Yah sends curses to those who continue to believe in these false gods.Jeremiah 10:5 Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field, and they cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, nor is it in them to do good. 6 There is none like you, O Lord; you are great, and your name is great in might.
10 But the Lord is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation. 11 Thus shall you say to them: The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens.
14 Everyone is stupid and without knowledge; goldsmiths are all put to shame by their idols; for their images are false, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Ps 4:2 – How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods? Selah
Here again we see the clarity that there is no other power that inflicts except Yah, everything else is the product of man’s delusions.
Mt 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
Beelzebub represents a false god, whom the Jews seem to believe had actual powers.
These powers the Pharisees have attributed to being from pagan gods. We know from the bible however that these gods actually don’t have any powers at all. Yah alone creates curses and darkness upon man.
So then the big question is why would the authors of the New Testament use the term, ‘possessed by a demon.’ Well first and foremost the word demon did not in and of itself mean fallen angel. The word demon stood for an unknown supernatural force that many people had many different ideas about. Knowing what we are told in the Old Testament, it should be clear as to the supernatural force that is causing such cursing. I believe the authors used the term not to reveal to us that false gods did indeed have powers and those powers came from fallen angels as some of the Jews believed, but they used it to identify the type of infliction the person had. Like I said, there were many different ideas as to the source of the infliction, but everyone knew what was meant in regards to the TYPE of infliction, which was insanity coupled with other possible physical problems such as blindness and deafness.
Mark 7:20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
24 From there He arose and went to the region of Tyre and Sidon. F33 And He entered a house and wanted no one to know it, but He could not be hidden. 25 For a woman whose young daughter had an unclean spirit heard about Him, and she came and fell at His feet. 26 The woman was a Greek, a Syro-Phoenician by birth, and she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs.” 28 And she answered and said to Him, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs under the table eat from the children's crumbs.” 29 Then He said to her, “For this saying go your way; the demon has gone out of your daughter.”
How could we believe just after what we are told by Yeshua, that this girl is being inflicted by fallen angels? Clearly we are to identify the authors choice of words ‘demon possession’ as referring to the undisputed symptoms the person had, rather then apply it to mean the well disputed ideas as to the cause of the infliction, which all have their roots in paganism.
Mt 8:16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,
Lu 8:36 Those who had seen it told the people how the demon-possessed man had been cured.
Lu 9:42 Even while the boy was coming, the demon threw him to the ground in a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit, healed the boy and gave him back to his father
These people are said to be healed through the word of Yeshua. The evil spirits that Yah cast forth onto sinners had been passed down through the generations and Yeshua was now removing these spirits from them.
DK,
The people Yeshua healed from being demon possessed, do you see them as being responsible for the evil that was going on at the time? Were they causing the Roman government to oppress people and then to later persecute Christians? Were they creating false doctrine and evil traditions of man? Were they going around deceiving people and manipulating them? No, they couldn't even function in their society, let alone contribute to it other then being a nuisance, as either someone you had to avoid or as someone you were stuck having to take care of.
Sorry, but trying to use the demon possessed in the bible as an example of the ways in which sinful angles are going about deceiving the whole world, manipulating us to do the worst evils possible, is IMO not convincing in the least.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2008,12:46) Hi Jodi,
Why cover for him?
Devilgate?
Say what? I'm not following you.Quote (Jodi @ June 11 2008,08:11) DK, The people Yeshua healed from being demon possessed, do you see them as being responsible for the evil that was going on at the time? Were they causing the Roman government to oppress people and then to later persecute Christians? Were they creating false doctrine and evil traditions of man? Were they going around deceiving people and manipulating them? No, they couldn't even function in their society, let alone contribute to it other then being a nuisance, as either someone you had to avoid or as someone you were stuck having to take care of.
Sorry, but trying to use the demon possessed in the bible as an example of the ways in which sinful angles are going about deceiving the whole world, manipulating us to do the worst evils possible, is IMO not convincing in the least.
Jodi..LoL…”false doctrine”…lol…
Jodi…noone is saying that they are “captive” the demons…we are merely saying that they influence the world with evil…
Our nature is indeed sinful…
I gave you 10 plus scriptures that mention a specific being…satan…and not sinful flesh…again this scripture:
Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)- 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Job chapter 1 should be enough for you….
Job 1:6-8 (niv)- 6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.Jodi…I'm sorry but I do not believe you came this conclusion on your OWN from scripture…You sound like a Christadelphian..even though you say you are not..I can tell you have studied their teachings…
“All scripture is inspired”…not “Jodi's borrowed Christadelphian teachings”
Hi Jodi,
It was Jesus who taught of the kingdom of darkness.
He told us of the prince of darkness.
You should hear him.Certainly man gives Satan a head start all being born with lusts within.
We follow Adam and give life to that sin dwelling in us.It takes Jesus to bring us from the kingdom of darkness into that of light.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2008,08:29) Hi Jodi,
It was Jesus who taught of the kingdom of darkness.
He told us of the prince of darkness.
You should hear him.Certainly man gives Satan a head start all being born with lusts within.
We follow Adam and give life to that sin dwelling in us.It takes Jesus to bring us from the kingdom of darkness into that of light.
AmenQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2008,11:56) Hi Jodi,
Lk22
31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:Was Peter going to sift himself?
John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.Did Judas enter himself?
Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.Will we bruise ourselves?
It is Jesus who spoke of the kingdom of darkness.
Luke 11:18
If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
Matthew 12:26
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?God spoke with him
Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.God rebuked him
Zechariah 3:2
And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Our adversary that keeps us from the ways of God, is ourselves AND the influences of other men, which could be in the form of one man, a group, a government, an army, a newspaper, television show the list goes on and on.Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” 33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” 34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”
Nick, no offense, but how could you be so blind. Satan in this scripture represents the Roman government. Yeshua's disciples, in the presence of Yeshua, found it easy to say that they would stand by him and keep the faith, however when faced with the reality of torture and death BY the adversary, the Roman government, well that was a whole different story wasn't it, for we know that they denied him.
John 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. “What you are about to do, do quickly,” Jesus told him,
an adversary entered into Judas, an adversary is anything that keeps a person from God's ways.
Mt 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
Lu 12:15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”
Judas, upon receiving the bread, had a final spark of greed enter into him, the spark that would put his thoughts of betrayal into action.
Sorry Nick, I am out of time and will have to address the rest of your post hopefully by the end of the day. Looking forward to it. Thanks so much for engaging me on this topic.
Hi Jodi,
Jesus spent much of his time freeing victims from Satan.
He taught about this kingdom and we should listen to him.lk11
17But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.18If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
19And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
Hi DK,
The few years that I have been studying the bible the concept of fallen angels and Satan representing their leader, never sat right with me. The doctrine of the fall of Lucifer that I grew up on, became in the last few years something that did not add up with the scriptures I was reading. The scriptural evidence was seriously lacking and the more I studied the more I saw a forced interpretation rather then a clear picture of reasonable evidence. When I did some internet searching on the subject of Satan I ran into some articles from the Christadelphians. I knew that such words as soul and hell were not very good translated words because they came with a lot of excess baggage of pagan belief, it's funny looking back that I didn't think or realize sooner that there were probably many more poorly translated words as well. The articles I read from the Christadelphians pointed out to me that the words satan and devil were also bad translations. After reading the original meanings of these words, I went to my online bibles and started rereading through all the scriptures that mentioned Satan, the devil, and angels. It has been awhile since I viewed a Christadelphian doctrine on Satan, but I recall the last time I did I had some disagreements with some of their interpretations. So that is my story regarding my relationship to the Christadelphian doctrine on Satan. I hope that clarifies things a little bit.
WJ said, “It would be interesting to see how Jodi will explain all those scriptures away.”
I really don’t see what it is that I need to be explaining away in the scriptures. None of them say anything about the identity of satan, or the devil, or the evil one, or the prince of darkness being a jealous manipulating angel who once was a light bearer. I am explaining away what I see as your false interpretation of these scriptures.
New points, old points, sorry I don't mean to sound like a broken record in this post, but I feel people are overlooking some pretty crucial things.
Mark 8:28 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.” 29 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ.” 30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him. 31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
Peter is a ‘fallen angel’ to God because he has in mind the things of men.
Peter is an adversary to God because he has in mind the things of men.
Now which one makes more sense? Peter’s thoughts act as an adversary to Peter, for they are keeping him from accepting the truth that Yeshua speaks.
Scripture is clear here that the word adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, is distinctively said to be that which draws a person to have in mind the things of men, rather then the things of God. There are MANY things that compete with keeping man in God’s ways. These sorts of adversaries, satans if you prefer, include thoughts that come from within the heart such as greed, lust, envy, hate, jealousy.
So I get it, you guys aren’t going to disagree with that, but the problem is you then turn and say that our adversary is ALSO a bunch of fallen angels that manipulate us to sin all the more, but there is not a single scripture where the wordadversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, is said to be a jealous, sinful angel manipulating men to think like men rather then to think like God.
In the Old Testament God is directly called adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan. We know as well that man is also referred directly as being called the adversary. Where is the scripture that directly refers the word adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, to be a sinful angel?
Unfortunately for you guys the only thing you have that you all hang onto is taking the vision of John that was a Great Sign of symbols and read it literally as indicating a literal fall from God’s throne onto earth. Symbolic 'fall from heaven including messengers' does not cut it for me. The dragon, which is specified as being rulers on earth and their messengers are cast down from their high position of power. When you are an evil dictator filled with hate and you have come to realize your going to be defeated, with the little time you know you have left, history shows that you are well inclined to go down fighting trying to reap as much havoc as you possibly can, before your final defeat.
When we apply the definition of the adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, given to us in Mark 8 to other scriptures containing the word adversary, they make a lot better sense then applying the meaning of adversary as a sinful jealous angel, which is nowhere in scripture substantiated as such.
b]Luke 22: 3 [/b]Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.
Joh 13:27 And, after the morsel, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore says to him, What thou doest, do quickly.
Was it a fallen angel that convinces Judas to betray Yeshua, or was it his own greed? This is not complicated. Greed was Judas’ adversary as well as, the men going to pay Judas because they fueled his greed by making it a reality that he could actually be paid for his betrayal. We struggle daily to stay away from these types of adversaries that turn us away from God’s path. It does not take a manipulating angel to make us feel such things as greed, lust, anger, hatred, or arrogance. These verses indicates nothing that the adversary to Judas is a maniplulating mind controller, but rather as I said, the force of greed acted as an adversary.
How perfect this fits in with James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
It is interesting how the writer is clarifying how exactly we are tempted and by whom we are not tempted by. Jealous, manipulating angels are not mentioned because they do not exist. The devil, which carries the basic meaning of someone who is a slanderer ( thus any man who lies is a devil and is then an adversary to himself for keeping himself in the ways of God and is an adversary to the person whom he has lied to), is said to hold the power of death. James 1:14-15 clearly identifies what force causes death and how that force ORIGINATES. It does not take a genius to then see what or whom the devil/slander and satan/adversary represents, it is SIN. The bible is quite clear throughout that the source of this sin comes FROM MAN. Nowhere in scripture is sin said to come from a sinful angel and then get passed down to man.
Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have tur
ned back, strengthen your brothers.” 33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” 34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”Is it a fallen angel that is going to convince Simon into denying Yeshua or is it when Simon comes face to face with the reality of torture and death that his FEARS and lack of faith get in the way of him staying true to God? Here we see two forces of man that draw Simon from the path of God, himself and the Roman government. Oh, how it is much easier to blame some unseen, unheard mythical being, then it is to face the weaknesses of our own flesh and the work of our own hands.
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart?
What is this THING that was conceived in his heart, acting as an adversary to him, keeping him from the ways of the Lord? Nothing in this scripture even remotely shows that the thing that was being an adversary to Ananias was a fallen angel. It is quite clear however, given the fact that he kept money for himself, that the adversary was greed.
When we take the words satan and the devil for what they mean, and not what people have adapted them to mean, and then read the scriptures for what they are saying, I believe we see a better picture of the truth.
I have much more to say and am working on some responses to what other people have said. Between being really busy right now on top of trying to organize what I want to say with the abundance of scriptures I want to use, things are taking awhile to get finished. Hopefully I can have another post up later.
Mrs., I do plan on getting back to you on your post on Lucifer and Ezekiel as well. I have not forgotten about you.
I hope people will continue to engage me in this topic. I really hope people will take a deeper look into scripture. When we say that it was a fallen angel that made someone steel or it was a fallen angel that moved someone to betray, they are hiding the true roots of man's problems. When people read such chapters as Luke 22 and Acts 5 as the adversary representing a fallen angel, the focus shifts away from man's own faults and into rather how BAD those unseen, unheard sinful angels are. This in my opinion bears no good fruit towards man's progress to walk in God's path, but is distracting and useless. Simon and Ananias's problem was not a fallen angel, but it was themselves and the influences of other men around them.
Quote (Jodi @ June 13 2008,04:21) Hi DK, The few years that I have been studying the bible the concept of fallen angels and Satan representing their leader, never sat right with me. The doctrine of the fall of Lucifer that I grew up on, became in the last few years something that did not add up with the scriptures I was reading. The scriptural evidence was seriously lacking and the more I studied the more I saw a forced interpretation rather then a clear picture of reasonable evidence. When I did some internet searching on the subject of Satan I ran into some articles from the Christadelphians. I knew that such words as soul and hell were not very good translated words because they came with a lot of excess baggage of pagan belief, it's funny looking back that I didn't think or realize sooner that there were probably many more poorly translated words as well. The articles I read from the Christadelphians pointed out to me that the words satan and devil were also bad translations. After reading the original meanings of these words, I went to my online bibles and started rereading through all the scriptures that mentioned Satan, the devil, and angels. It has been awhile since I viewed a Christadelphian doctrine on Satan, but I recall the last time I did I had some disagreements with some of their interpretations. So that is my story regarding my relationship to the Christadelphian doctrine on Satan. I hope that clarifies things a little bit.
WJ said, “It would be interesting to see how Jodi will explain all those scriptures away.”
I really don’t see what it is that I need to be explaining away in the scriptures. None of them say anything about the identity of satan, or the devil, or the evil one, or the prince of darkness being a jealous manipulating angel who once was a light bearer. I am explaining away what I see as your false interpretation of these scriptures.
New points, old points, sorry I don't mean to sound like a broken record in this post, but I feel people are overlooking some pretty crucial things.
Mark 8:28 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.” 29 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ.” 30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him. 31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
Peter is a ‘fallen angel’ to God because he has in mind the things of men.
Peter is an adversary to God because he has in mind the things of men.
Now which one makes more sense? Peter’s thoughts act as an adversary to Peter, for they are keeping him from accepting the truth that Yeshua speaks.
Scripture is clear here that the word adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, is distinctively said to be that which draws a person to have in mind the things of men, rather then the things of God. There are MANY things that compete with keeping man in God’s ways. These sorts of adversaries, satans if you prefer, include thoughts that come from within the heart such as greed, lust, envy, hate, jealousy.
So I get it, you guys aren’t going to disagree with that, but the problem is you then turn and say that our adversary is ALSO a bunch of fallen angels that manipulate us to sin all the more, but there is not a single scripture where the wordadversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, is said to be a jealous, sinful angel manipulating men to think like men rather then to think like God.
In the Old Testament God is directly called adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan. We know as well that man is also referred directly as being called the adversary. Where is the scripture that directly refers the word adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, to be a sinful angel?
Unfortunately for you guys the only thing you have that you all hang onto is taking the vision of John that was a Great Sign of symbols and read it literally as indicating a literal fall from God’s throne onto earth. Symbolic 'fall from heaven including messengers' does not cut it for me. The dragon, which is specified as being rulers on earth and their messengers are cast down from their high position of power. When you are an evil dictator filled with hate and you have come to realize your going to be defeated, with the little time you know you have left, history shows that you are well inclined to go down fighting trying to reap as much havoc as you possibly can, before your final defeat.
When we apply the definition of the adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, given to us in Mark 8 to other scriptures containing the word adversary, they make a lot better sense then applying the meaning of adversary as a sinful jealous angel, which is nowhere in scripture substantiated as such.
b]Luke 22: 3 [/b]Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.
Joh 13:27 And, after the morsel, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore says to him, What thou doest, do quickly.
Was it a fallen angel that convinces Judas to betray Yeshua, or was it his own greed? This is not complicated. Greed was Judas’ adversary as well as, the men going to pay Judas because they fueled his greed by making it a reality that he could actually be paid for his betrayal. We struggle daily to stay away from these types of adversaries that turn us away from God’s path. It does not take a manipulating angel to make us feel such things as greed, lust, anger, hatred, or arrogance. These verses indicates nothing that the adversary to Judas is a maniplulating mind controller, but rather as I said, the force of greed acted as an adversary.
How perfect this fits in with James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
It is interesting how the writer is clarifying how exactly we are tempted and by whom we are not tempted by. Jealous, manipulating angels are not mentioned because they do not exist. The devil, which carries the basic meaning of someone who is a slanderer ( thus any man who lies is a devil and is then an adversary to himself for keeping himself in the ways of God and is an adversary to the person whom he has lied to), is said to hold the power of death. James 1:14-15 clearly identifies what force causes death and how that force ORIGINATES. It does not take a genius to then see what or whom the devil/slander and satan/adversary represents, it is SIN. The bible is quite clear throughout that the source of this sin comes FROM MAN. Nowhere in scripture is sin said to come from a sinful angel and then get passed down to man.Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred on
e on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” 33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” 34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”Is it a fallen angel that is going to convince Simon into denying Yeshua or is it when Simon comes face to face with the reality of torture and death that his FEARS and lack of faith get in the way of him staying true to God? Here we see two forces of man that draw Simon from the path of God, himself and the Roman government. Oh, how it is much easier to blame some unseen, unheard mythical being, then it is to face the weaknesses of our own flesh and the work of our own hands.
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart?
What is this THING that was conceived in his heart, acting as an adversary to him, keeping him from the ways of the Lord? Nothing in this scripture even remotely shows that the thing that was being an adversary to Ananias was a fallen angel. It is quite clear however, given the fact that he kept money for himself, that the adversary was greed.
When we take the words satan and the devil for what they mean, and not what people have adapted them to mean, and then read the scriptures for what they are saying, I believe we see a better picture of the truth.
I have much more to say and am working on some responses to what other people have said. Between being really busy right now on top of trying to organize what I want to say with the abundance of scriptures I want to use, things are taking awhile to get finished. Hopefully I can have another post up later.
Mrs., I do plan on getting back to you on your post on Lucifer and Ezekiel as well. I have not forgotten about you.
I hope people will continue to engage me in this topic. I really hope people will take a deeper look into scripture. When we say that it was a fallen angel that made someone steel or it was a fallen angel that moved someone to betray, they are hiding the true roots of man's problems. When people read such chapters as Luke 22 and Acts 5 as the adversary representing a fallen angel, the focus shifts away from man's own faults and into rather how BAD those unseen, unheard sinful angels are. This in my opinion bears no good fruit towards man's progress to walk in God's path, but is distracting and useless. Simon and Ananias's problem was not a fallen angel, but it was themselves and the influences of other men around them.
Hey..Jodi…I respect your beliefs…I just diasagree…I'm at work now..but later to today I will respond
Hi Jodi,
I agree with your reasoning as far as you interpreted our temptations, sin and flesh nature to adversary or Satan. But I just can not digest the way people take away the existence of demons/evil spirits which Jesus also accepted and he did cast them out. Christadelphians don't accept real devils/demons. I know you can not impute all blame to poor Satan but how Jesus was tempted by Satan(adversary) without his real existence ? How he(satan) will be punished in eternal torment as mentioned in Rev 20:10 if he not really existing?
These are the some of my questions I always get when people deny the existence of real devil/demons or Satan.
Hope you will understand my confusions.
God bless you
AdamQuote (Jodi @ June 13 2008,04:21) Hi DK, The few years that I have been studying the bible the concept of fallen angels and Satan representing their leader, never sat right with me. The doctrine of the fall of Lucifer that I grew up on, became in the last few years something that did not add up with the scriptures I was reading. The scriptural evidence was seriously lacking and the more I studied the more I saw a forced interpretation rather then a clear picture of reasonable evidence. When I did some internet searching on the subject of Satan I ran into some articles from the Christadelphians. I knew that such words as soul and hell were not very good translated words because they came with a lot of excess baggage of pagan belief, it's funny looking back that I didn't think or realize sooner that there were probably many more poorly translated words as well. The articles I read from the Christadelphians pointed out to me that the words satan and devil were also bad translations. After reading the original meanings of these words, I went to my online bibles and started rereading through all the scriptures that mentioned Satan, the devil, and angels. It has been awhile since I viewed a Christadelphian doctrine on Satan, but I recall the last time I did I had some disagreements with some of their interpretations. So that is my story regarding my relationship to the Christadelphian doctrine on Satan. I hope that clarifies things a little bit.
WJ said, “It would be interesting to see how Jodi will explain all those scriptures away.”
I really don’t see what it is that I need to be explaining away in the scriptures. None of them say anything about the identity of satan, or the devil, or the evil one, or the prince of darkness being a jealous manipulating angel who once was a light bearer. I am explaining away what I see as your false interpretation of these scriptures.
New points, old points, sorry I don't mean to sound like a broken record in this post, but I feel people are overlooking some pretty crucial things.
Mark 8:28 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.” 29 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ.” 30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him. 31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
Peter is a ‘fallen angel’ to God because he has in mind the things of men.
Peter is an adversary to God because he has in mind the things of men.
Now which one makes more sense? Peter’s thoughts act as an adversary to Peter, for they are keeping him from accepting the truth that Yeshua speaks.
Scripture is clear here that the word adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, is distinctively said to be that which draws a person to have in mind the things of men, rather then the things of God. There are MANY things that compete with keeping man in God’s ways. These sorts of adversaries, satans if you prefer, include thoughts that come from within the heart such as greed, lust, envy, hate, jealousy.
So I get it, you guys aren’t going to disagree with that, but the problem is you then turn and say that our adversary is ALSO a bunch of fallen angels that manipulate us to sin all the more, but there is not a single scripture where the wordadversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, is said to be a jealous, sinful angel manipulating men to think like men rather then to think like God.
In the Old Testament God is directly called adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan. We know as well that man is also referred directly as being called the adversary. Where is the scripture that directly refers the word adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, to be a sinful angel?
Unfortunately for you guys the only thing you have that you all hang onto is taking the vision of John that was a Great Sign of symbols and read it literally as indicating a literal fall from God’s throne onto earth. Symbolic 'fall from heaven including messengers' does not cut it for me. The dragon, which is specified as being rulers on earth and their messengers are cast down from their high position of power. When you are an evil dictator filled with hate and you have come to realize your going to be defeated, with the little time you know you have left, history shows that you are well inclined to go down fighting trying to reap as much havoc as you possibly can, before your final defeat.
When we apply the definition of the adversary/Hebrew phonetic saw-tawn/English satan, given to us in Mark 8 to other scriptures containing the word adversary, they make a lot better sense then applying the meaning of adversary as a sinful jealous angel, which is nowhere in scripture substantiated as such.
b]Luke 22: 3 [/b]Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.
Joh 13:27 And, after the morsel, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore says to him, What thou doest, do quickly.
Was it a fallen angel that convinces Judas to betray Yeshua, or was it his own greed? This is not complicated. Greed was Judas’ adversary as well as, the men going to pay Judas because they fueled his greed by making it a reality that he could actually be paid for his betrayal. We struggle daily to stay away from these types of adversaries that turn us away from God’s path. It does not take a manipulating angel to make us feel such things as greed, lust, anger, hatred, or arrogance. These verses indicates nothing that the adversary to Judas is a maniplulating mind controller, but rather as I said, the force of greed acted as an adversary.
How perfect this fits in with James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
It is interesting how the writer is clarifying how exactly we are tempted and by whom we are not tempted by. Jealous, manipulating angels are not mentioned because they do not exist. The devil, which carries the basic meaning of someone who is a slanderer ( thus any man who lies is a devil and is then an adversary to himself for keeping himself in the ways of God and is an adversary to the person whom he has lied to), is said to hold the power of death. James 1:14-15 clearly identifies what force causes death and how that force ORIGINATES. It does not take a genius to then see what or whom the devil/slander and satan/adversary represents, it is SIN. The bible is quite clear throughout that the source of this sin comes FROM MAN. Nowhere in scripture is sin said to come from a sinful angel and then get passed down to man.Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at
my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” 33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” 34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”Is it a fallen angel that is going to convince Simon into denying Yeshua or is it when Simon comes face to face with the reality of torture and death that his FEARS and lack of faith get in the way of him staying true to God? Here we see two forces of man that draw Simon from the path of God, himself and the Roman government. Oh, how it is much easier to blame some unseen, unheard mythical being, then it is to face the weaknesses of our own flesh and the work of our own hands.
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart?
What is this THING that was conceived in his heart, acting as an adversary to him, keeping him from the ways of the Lord? Nothing in this scripture even remotely shows that the thing that was being an adversary to Ananias was a fallen angel. It is quite clear however, given the fact that he kept money for himself, that the adversary was greed.
When we take the words satan and the devil for what they mean, and not what people have adapted them to mean, and then read the scriptures for what they are saying, I believe we see a better picture of the truth.
I have much more to say and am working on some responses to what other people have said. Between being really busy right now on top of trying to organize what I want to say with the abundance of scriptures I want to use, things are taking awhile to get finished. Hopefully I can have another post up later.
Mrs., I do plan on getting back to you on your post on Lucifer and Ezekiel as well. I have not forgotten about you.
I hope people will continue to engage me in this topic. I really hope people will take a deeper look into scripture. When we say that it was a fallen angel that made someone steel or it was a fallen angel that moved someone to betray, they are hiding the true roots of man's problems. When people read such chapters as Luke 22 and Acts 5 as the adversary representing a fallen angel, the focus shifts away from man's own faults and into rather how BAD those unseen, unheard sinful angels are. This in my opinion bears no good fruit towards man's progress to walk in God's path, but is distracting and useless. Simon and Ananias's problem was not a fallen angel, but it was themselves and the influences of other men around them.
Hi Jodi,
Just because God holds us responsible for our decisions and actions does not say that satanic influences on us do not exist. Adam followed the serpent or the devil or Satan when he was given the choice and men have done so ever since.Satanic influences??……..and those would be what scripturally, according to the TRUE definition of the word satan?
My last post was not about who is responsible for their own sins. According to you Satan (fallen angel) can deceive me without my knowledge, therefore I would not be responsible for his unknown manipulation, would I?
Hi Jodi,
There is the Word of God and one called the Word.
There are adversaries and one called the adversary.He is the prince of the kingdom of darkness and rules over natural men
if you accept the teachings of Jesus on this matterTo all who have been engaging me in this topic, I would just like to thank you for your responses and feed back. I wish I had more time and energy to work on my posts and respond right now. I have been listening to what you all have been saying and have been reading many scriptures today.
Unfortunately I am leaving tomorrow for a weekend trip that involves a birthday party, father's day party and a class I have to teach. I am leaving midday tomorrow and still need to organize and prepare for all three and on top of all that I have to get my family packed and ready to go. I am really into this right now and so wish I had more time. If I don't start refocusing my mind, I am liable to forget something important on my trip, which I usually tend to do anyway
!So I'll have to say, talk to you soon,
Peace and love with unity in Christ and a shared love for God's word, Jodi
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