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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 01 2013,09:50) Mike…….ok let's look at it this way , what is a root , is it not that which came from a “SEED”………..
It depends on the context, Gene.For example, in 1 Timothy 6:10, when Paul tells us that “money is the root of all kinds of evil”, doesn't it mean that all kinds of evil stem FROM money?
And when Job 19:28 says, “the root of the trouble lies in him”, doesn't it mean that the trouble stems FROM him?
In other words, the money came first, and THEN the evil. And the “him” came first, and THEN the troubles, right?
So in both of those cases, the root came FIRST, right?
So when Jesus is called BOTH the Root AND the Offspring of David, it should stand to reason that both things don't mean the same thing. It would be redundant for Jesus to tell John that he is the offspring AND the offspring of David, don't you think? Instead, it means that Jesus was both BEFORE AND AFTER David. That is the meaning of “Root AND Offspring”, Gene.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 02 2013,20:22) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 01 2013,09:50) Mike…….OK let's look at it this way , what is a root , is it not that which came from a “SEED”………..
It depends on the context, Gene.For example, in 1 Timothy 6:10, when Paul tells us that “money is the root of all kinds of evil”, doesn't it mean that all kinds of evil stem FROM money?
And when Job 19:28 says, “the root of the trouble lies in him”, doesn't it mean that the trouble stems FROM him?
In other words, the money came first, and THEN the evil. And the “him” came first, and THEN the troubles, right?
So in both of those cases, the root came FIRST, right?
So when Jesus is called BOTH the Root AND the Offspring of David, it should stand to reason that both things don't mean the same thing. It would be redundant for Jesus to tell John that he is the offspring AND the offspring of David, don't you think? Instead, it means that Jesus was both BEFORE AND AFTER David. That is the meaning of “Root AND Offspring”, Gene.
Mike……… NO it doesn't depend on the context Mike it simply is a Known truth,. The Love for Money is “A” Root of evil it is not the only one thats a Root of evil is my friend. A Love for money brings forth an offspring of Evil , a Product of the lust for money. It still mean a particular Evil came or sparing from that root “Love ” for Money. A Root is simplya Branch from simething. Jesus was a Branch from Jesse' roots and also from King David . Just that simple Mike.Jesus sprang into existence through the Roots of Jesse who had his roots in the tribe of Judah who who had their roots through Jacob and all came from the “SEED” of Abraham which produced both those seeds and roots or linage. Do you understand that Mike.
You again trying to force both scriptures and there contexts to meet you understandings of a Preexistent Jesus. Roots come from a Seed and each Seed produces more Roots and seeds and on and on it goes, This is called a Linage from one offspring to another.
Jesse or King David was not the root of Jesus or his offspring , Just the other way around Mike, Jesus was the Root and offspring of Jesse and King David Just as scripture say He Was, Nothing difficult about it Mike.
Can't you begin to see how much scriptures you Trinitarians and Preexistences must change and Make into some Mystery FORM of Religion to fit you false teachings.
peace and love to you and your brother……………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 01 2013,19:23) LU, Quote I think you are referring to my prince/pauper story. Yes.
Quote
No one needs authority to ask the Father for something.I was speaking of actually receiving and commanding them.
Kerwin,
I know Jesus, before His resurrection, had some authority. After His resurrection He was given all authority on heaven and earth. Here are just a few verses about His authority and His giving authority:Mark 2:10
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—Luke 9:1
And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2013,01:39) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 01 2013,19:23) LU, Quote I think you are referring to my prince/pauper story. Yes.
Quote
No one needs authority to ask the Father for something.I was speaking of actually receiving and commanding them.
Kerwin,
I know Jesus, before His resurrection, had some authority. After His resurrection He was given all authority on heaven and earth. Here are just a few verses about His authority and His giving authority:Mark 2:10
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—Luke 9:1
And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
LU,That is what I have concluded. I have also concluded that he did not have the authority to send the Spirit until after his self sacrifice and resurrection.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 02 2013,15:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 02 2013,20:22) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 01 2013,09:50) Mike…….OK let's look at it this way , what is a root , is it not that which came from a “SEED”………..
It depends on the context, Gene.For example, in 1 Timothy 6:10, when Paul tells us that “money is the root of all kinds of evil”, doesn't it mean that all kinds of evil stem FROM money?
And when Job 19:28 says, “the root of the trouble lies in him”, doesn't it mean that the trouble stems FROM him?
In other words, the money came first, and THEN the evil. And the “him” came first, and THEN the troubles, right?
So in both of those cases, the root came FIRST, right?
So when Jesus is called BOTH the Root AND the Offspring of David, it should stand to reason that both things don't mean the same thing. It would be redundant for Jesus to tell John that he is the offspring AND the offspring of David, don't you think? Instead, it means that Jesus was both BEFORE AND AFTER David. That is the meaning of “Root AND Offspring”, Gene.
Mike………The Love for Money is “A” Root of evil…….
A Love for money brings forth an offspring of Evil , a Product of the lust for money.
You apparently don't even realize that you just said the SAME THING I said, Gene.You said that “the love of money” is a ROOT of evil. And that evil is the “offspring” and “product” OF that ROOT.
So you can see that the ROOT comes FIRST, and the “offspring” or “product” comes AFTER, right?
So the phrase, “the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil”, means that the love of money came FIRST, and then evil came AFTER, right?
Using that same logic, the phrase, “I am the Root of David” means that Jesus came FIRST, and then David came AFTER, right?
Gene, the words YOU YOURSELF posted above convince me that you DO understand this concept. And that leads me to believe that the only reason you have for TWISTING this simple concept, that you clearly understand, is because you simply don't WANT what the scriptures teach to be the truth.
It is crystal clear to all who read this post that you understand how the love of money is the root, and evil comes AFTER the root.
Therefore, you should be just as able to understand that Jesus is the root, and David comes AFTER the root.
I will entertain no more discussion on this matter from you – because it is crystal clear to me that you do understand the concept involved. Any further discussion would only amount to you trying your best to PRETEND the very understanding YOU YOURSELF just laid out about money and evil somehow doesn't apply to Rev 22:16.
And I won't be part of that pretense. I already KNOW that you understand the concept.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 03 2013,19:13) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2013,01:39) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 01 2013,19:23) LU, Quote I think you are referring to my prince/pauper story. Yes.
Quote
No one needs authority to ask the Father for something.I was speaking of actually receiving and commanding them.
Kerwin,
I know Jesus, before His resurrection, had some authority. After His resurrection He was given all authority on heaven and earth. Here are just a few verses about His authority and His giving authority:Mark 2:10
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—Luke 9:1
And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
LU,That is what I have concluded. I have also concluded that he did not have the authority to send the Spirit until after his self sacrifice and resurrection.
Hi Kerwin,
Good, we both see this. What we need to remember is that He did all things according to the will of the Father and anything the Father willed Him to do, the Father equipped Him to do it with authority or power or whatever.Can you think of anything that the Son tried to do but couldn't because He didn't have the authority to do it?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2013,08:16) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 03 2013,19:13) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2013,01:39) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 01 2013,19:23) LU, Quote I think you are referring to my prince/pauper story. Yes.
Quote
No one needs authority to ask the Father for something.I was speaking of actually receiving and commanding them.
Kerwin,
I know Jesus, before His resurrection, had some authority. After His resurrection He was given all authority on heaven and earth. Here are just a few verses about His authority and His giving authority:Mark 2:10
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—Luke 9:1
And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
LU,That is what I have concluded. I have also concluded that he did not have the authority to send the Spirit until after his self sacrifice and resurrection.
Hi Kerwin,
Good, we both see this. What we need to remember is that He did all things according to the will of the Father and anything the Father willed Him to do, the Father equipped Him to do it with authority or power or whatever.Can you think of anything that the Son tried to do but couldn't because He didn't have the authority to do it?
LU,The only limit, except for what he chose not to do, is he was unable to send the spirit.
John 16:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
and
John 15:26
King James Version (KJV)26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,23:44) Hi abe,
Yes, He (Jesus), as the shoot, was in the loins of Abraham in the same manner that any descendant of Abraham was. As the Root, He was not in Abraham's loins.See the geneology from Luke 3:
23Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,e the son of Neri, 28the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Blessings!
Hi LU,Lk.8:11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
1Pet.1:23 for you have been born again not of SEED which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
Peace sister..
Mike…….The root is from the Seed and Jessu is fromm the Seed of Abraham right surely you know that right> A n example a Seed profuces many root s from which the trunk comes and then the Branches. Jesus is a Branch or ofsute of King David who is a Branch from the root stock of Jesse who is a Root of of the Seed of Abraham. Man how come you cant understadn that ? The roof come from the seed andn that Seed was Abrham. Not some Preexisting Root stock as you presume it to be. Jesusin Revelatin was Just telling us his linage and nothing more ther is not Mystery attached there Mike . IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene
To all,
Who are the roots of Israel?
Hint:
Deuteronomy 29:18
King James Version (KJV)18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2013,17:48) Deuteronomy 29:18
King James Version (KJV)18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
Good scripture, Kerwin. The warning is to not be that first one (root) to go after other gods, thereby producing metaphoric “offspring” that will follow in your footsteps and do the same.But once again, the root comes first, and subsequently bears gall and wormwood.
Ie: If you are that root that Moses warned against, then you would be the first one, and subsequently bear the gall and wormwood.
So if it was said, “Kerwin is the Root of gall and wormwood”, it would be clear to all that “Kerwin” was first, and the gall and wormwood came LATER – as it was produced BY the Root.
Now go and apply this common sense to Rev 22:16, and see what you come up with.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 04 2013,09:12) The root is from the Seed……… how come you can't understand that ?
And the seed is from the flower, which is from the branch, which is from the trunk, which is from the root, which is from the seed, which is from the flower……………….. and so on, and so on.So if Paul had said, “The love of money is the seed of all kinds of evil”, we would understand that the love of money came first, and the product of that love of money is all kinds of evil.
But you can convey the same exact message by saying, “The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil”, as your own words testify.
They are both figures of speech, involving one thing that came first, and the resulting product OF that first thing.
Paul used “root” instead of “seed” in his analogy, right? But either one would have conveyed the same thing, right?
(I notice that when Paul says love of money is the ROOT, you're not asking which SEED that ROOT came from. Why bring it up in the case of Jesus then?)
Quote (abe @ Mar. 03 2013,23:06) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,23:44) Hi abe,
Yes, He (Jesus), as the shoot, was in the loins of Abraham in the same manner that any descendant of Abraham was. As the Root, He was not in Abraham's loins.See the geneology from Luke 3:
23Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,e the son of Neri, 28the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Blessings!
Hi LU,Lk.8:11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
1Pet.1:23 for you have been born again not of SEED which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
Peace sister..
Hello abe,
I'm not sure what your point is. Can you please clarify for me? Thanks!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,06:50) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2013,17:48) Deuteronomy 29:18
King James Version (KJV)18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
Good scripture, Kerwin. The warning is to not be that first one (root) to go after other gods, thereby producing metaphoric “offspring” that will follow in your footsteps and do the same.But once again, the root comes first, and subsequently bears gall and wormwood.
Ie: If you are that root that Moses warned against, then you would be the first one, and subsequently bear the gall and wormwood.
So if it was said, “Kerwin is the Root of gall and wormwood”, it would be clear to all that “Kerwin” was first, and the gall and wormwood came LATER – as it was produced BY the Root.
Now go and apply this common sense to Rev 22:16, and see what you come up with.
Mike and all,Literally Deuteronomy 29:18 speaks of a root of Israel that has become bitter through the worship of other Gods as the “you” spoken of is Israel.
Your understanding of Deuteronomy 29:18 seems a to be a solid inferred understanding.
Mike,
Quote So if Paul had said, “The love of money is the seed of all kinds of evil”, we would understand that the love of money came first, and the product of that love of money is all kinds of evil. I have always perceived that greed itself is an evil.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2013,15:32) Mike and all, Literally Deuteronomy 29:18 speaks of a root of Israel that has become bitter through the worship of other Gods as the “you” spoken of is Israel.
Your understanding of Deuteronomy 29:18 seems a to be a solid inferred understanding.
Deuteronomy 29 NIV
16 You yourselves know how we lived in Egypt and how we passed through the countries on the way here.17 You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold.
18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the Lord our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.
Actually Kerwin, it is a WARNING to the members of Israel that they not be the root (or “first one”) to go after other gods like the nations they passed through, thereby producing offspring (branches) that do the same.
At the time Moses gave this warning, no one was that root yet. He was telling them to make sure there never is that root (first one) among them.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2013,15:39) Mike, Quote So if Paul had said, “The love of money is the seed of all kinds of evil”, we would understand that the love of money came first, and the product of that love of money is all kinds of evil. I have always perceived that greed itself is an evil.
Okay Kerwin.But Gene and I were discussing Paul's use of the word “root” in 1 Timothy 6:10.
In that verse, does the word “root” refer to “what came first”? YES or NO?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 03 2013,22:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2013,08:16) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 03 2013,19:13) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2013,01:39) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 01 2013,19:23) LU, Quote I think you are referring to my prince/pauper story. Yes.
Quote
No one needs authority to ask the Father for something.I was speaking of actually receiving and commanding them.
Kerwin,
I know Jesus, before His resurrection, had some authority. After His resurrection He was given all authority on heaven and earth. Here are just a few verses about His authority and His giving authority:Mark 2:10
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—Luke 9:1
And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
LU,That is what I have concluded. I have also concluded that he did not have the authority to send the Spirit until after his self sacrifice and resurrection.
Hi Kerwin,
Good, we both see this. What we need to remember is that He did all things according to the will of the Father and anything the Father willed Him to do, the Father equipped Him to do it with authority or power or whatever.Can you think of anything that the Son tried to do but couldn't because He didn't have the authority to do it?
LU,The only limit, except for what he chose not to do, is he was unable to send the spirit.
John 16:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
and
John 15:26
King James Version (KJV)26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Kerwin,
I think that the sending of the Holy Spirit was more of a timing issue than an issue of a lack of authority. What do you think?Blessings!
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 05 2013,11:58) Quote (abe @ Mar. 03 2013,23:06) Lightenup,Feb. wrote:Hi abe,
Yes, He (Jesus), as the shoot, was in the loins of Abraham in the same manner that any descendant of Abraham was. As the Root, He was not in Abraham's loins.Lk.8:11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
1Pet.1:23 for you have been born again not of SEED which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
Peace sister..
Hello abe,
I'm not sure what your point is. Can you please clarify for me? Thanks!
Hi LU,Gal.3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
1Pet.1:23 for you have been born again not of SEED which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
Lk.8:11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Christ is the ROOT. Jesus is the OFFSPRING.
Peace sister..
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