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LU,
Quote However, Jesus is also the root of Jesse which had to exist before Jesse as something foundational to Jesse's existence. First, the KJV state “a root” not “the root”.
Second, Jesse is the genealogical root of Jesse as without Jesse there is no Jesse.Kerwin,
you said:Quote First, the KJV state “a root” not “the root”. The article 'the' with 'root' IS in the Greek in the NT reference of Isa 11. You can see that here:
http://interlinearbible.org/romans/15-12.htmNew American Standard Bible (©1995)
Again Isaiah says, “THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE, AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES, IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES HOPE.”Kerwin,
you said:Quote Second, Jesse is the genealogical root of Jesse as without Jesse there is no Jesse. Jesse is the genealogical root of himself??? Did you mean Jesus?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,20:00) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 23 2013,16:55) LU, Quote Isa 11:1A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.Young's Literal Translation
And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful.“His roots” means from Jesse's roots, does it not?
Quote Romans 15……………..
“The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations”Matthew 1:
1The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.2Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, 3and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram, 4and Ram the father of Amminadab, and Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon, 5and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, 6and Jesse the father of David the king.
And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uriah, 7and Solomon the father of Rehoboam, and Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asaph,b 8and Asaph the father of Jehoshaphat, and Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah, 9and Uzziah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, 10and Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, and Manasseh the father of Amos,c and Amos the father of Josiah, 11and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.
12And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoniah was the father of Shealtiel,d and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, 13and Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, and Abiud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor, 14and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud, 15and Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob, 16and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
Does this not explain it?
2besee,
It is clear that Jesus, according to Him being David's offspring, the Shoot or Branch in other words, lines up with His geneology according to the flesh.However, Jesus is also the root of Jesse which had to exist before Jesse as something foundational to Jesse's existence.
Jesus is both the root of Jesse and the offspring of David. Your geneology that you put up only explains the offspring of David part.
LU, I don't know. I have not given this much thought. If I find something I will post it.
God bless.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2013,01:31) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 24 2013,09:06) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2013,04:50) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,22:59) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2013,18:26) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,07:20) being the ROOT and the BRANCH OR SEED IS ALSO AN OTHER WAY OF SAYING ;
I am the First and the Last.
T,Not when it is referring to Jehovah. In that case it means the first and last God.
Jesus is the beginning and finisher of the faith of believers.
Jesus is also the only Son of God.
kerwinshow me in scriptures where it is referring to Jehovah the father God almighty
T,Isaiah 48:11-12
King James Version (KJV)11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.Isaiah 41:4
King James Version (KJV)4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Kerwinthank you ,
Quote Not when it is referring to Jehovah. In that case it means the first and last God. I would rather say it means he his the creator and he would have the last words
Quote .Jesus is the beginning and finisher of the faith of believers yes, but it started after Adam sinned ,
T,Exodus 34:14
King James Version (KJV)14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Jehovah is the first and last god to be worshiped.
His Word is also first word and last word.
This world's frustration was started after Adam's sin but deliverance was started after Jesus' conception.
Ki agree with you ,except for this ;
Quote This world's frustration was started after Adam's sin but deliverance was started after Jesus' conception. the deliverance as been started right after Adam sinned ;Gen 3;15, Paul tells us about the men of faith of the old ,
the deliverance will be done wen the new earth and heaven will be completed and all wickedness gone and also dead ,
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 23 2013,14:40) As for “Root of David” I have not given it any thought whatsoever.
Ah, but you are smart enough to realize that the “root OF” something comes BEFORE that something, right?For example, when Paul says the love of money is the “root OF” all kinds of evil, doesn't it mean that FIRST there is the love of money, and FROM that love of money STEMS all kinds of evil?
Of course you understand this is the case, right 2B? Just like Kathi, Gene, me, and Pierre all understand it.
So why not just SAY you understand this to be the case? Why is getting HONEST and DIRECT answers so hard? Aren't we here on this site to discuss such things?
Give him a break Mike, he didn't say that he wasn't going to discuss it. He needs to think about it all first. That is a good thing!
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 23 2013,15:16) No, David is not the root of Jesse. I don't believe that a father or forefather are referred to as roots of their descendants but I have not really looked into it that much.
Yeah, I don't know of any scripture like that either. But I wasn't asking scripturally. I was simply asking for the common sense answer. I suppose I could have used non-Biblical people in my questions:Was Frank Sinatra Sr. the “root OF” Frank Jr.?
Was Jr. the “root OF” Sr.?
I'm just trying to point out how this is simply common sense that the root comes FIRST.
Here are a couple of scriptures we haven't touched on yet:
Romans 11:16
If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.See Kerwin? If the FIRST thing is holy, so then are the things that stem FROM that FIRST thing. (And the FIRST thing is metaphorically called “the root”.)
Romans 11:18
do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.In this analogy, the Gentiles are the “branches”. The Jews, God's original chosen people, are the “root”. The “root” came FIRST, and then the “branches”. And the branches don't support the root, but the root supports them.
Why? Because branches don't come first, and then support the soon to follow roots. Instead, the roots come first, and then support the soon to follow branches.
This should be simple common sense.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,14:58) Kerwin,
you said:Quote Second, Jesse is the genealogical root of Jesse as without Jesse there is no Jesse. Jesse is the genealogical root of himself??? Did you mean Jesus?
Wait for it………………………………………
Mike,
I realize your point. Thanks for clarifying.Also, I think that Kerwin is thinking that, as Jesus is the Branch…those He gives life to will grow out of this Branch and that would make the Branch a type of foundation or 'root' for them but in that case, the 'root' would not be called 'the root of Jesse' but the 'root' of the church. Ultimately, the roots of all are those that are here said to be the roots of Jesse which, Jesse and his descendants before Christ are considered the stump.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,18:29) Give him a break Mike, he didn't say that he wasn't going to discuss it. He needs to think about it all first. That is a good thing!
He said he hadn't given much thought to “I am the Root of David”. But I didn't ask him about that, Kathi.I was asking, from the point of simple common sense, if a root OF something generally comes BEFORE that something. And I gave Paul's words as a sample exercise to help him decide.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2013,02:58) Kerwin,
you said:Quote Second, Jesse is the genealogical root of Jesse as without Jesse there is no Jesse. Jesse is the genealogical root of himself??? Did you mean Jesus?
LU,Jesse is the house of Jesse.
It is a way of speech. For example:
Exodus 4:22
King James Version (KJV)22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,18:37) Also, I think that Kerwin is thinking that, as Jesus is the Branch…those He gives life to will grow out of this Branch and that would make the Branch a type of foundation or 'root' for them but in that case, the 'root' would not be called 'the root of Jesse' but the 'root' of the church.
I haven't read all the posts Kerwin has made to you, but if he understands that others “grow out of” Jesus, making the Branch some kind of a foundational “root”, then he clearly understands that is the ROOT that comes first, and others grow OUT FROM that ROOT.I genuinely like Kerwin. He is knowledgeable, and much mellower than I will ever be. But he just IRRITATES me some times. Like when he PRETENDS to not understand something, just because he KNOWS that acknowledging his understanding of that point will damper his man-made doctrines.
For example, he STILL refuses to answer the simple question about “the love of money”, as the ROOT, coming BEFORE the “all kinds of evil”. He won't answer it, because he KNOWS the answer is, “YES Mike, the root comes BEFORE the “all kinds of evil.”
And if he were to acknowledge this, then what leg would he have left to stand on in the case of “I am the ROOT of David”? NONE. And for that simple reason, he will refuse to answer the question, and just keep playing silly games.
He has just started one of those games with you. Really Kerwin? Jesse is the root of Jesse?
Now watch how far into Bizarro World he takes this claim he made. He will have you jumping through hoops and reading all kinds of bizarre “support” to his claim that a person is the root of THEMSELF. And why? Does this line of reasoning even address Rev 22:16? Is he saying that Jesus IS David, because only David can truly be the root of David?
Of course not. Instead, it is just a way for him to AVOID addressing the actual points in question.Just watch and see how far he will take this thing – just so he doesn't have to deal with or acknowledge the obvious and true points you are making.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2013,18:41) LU, Jesse is the house of Jesse.
See? It has begun……… before I even finished my post explaining what soon will be! Maybe I'm prophetic!To all ……> Kerwin is right , all branches come from roots, and all roots come from a Seed, Jesse is a Seed of Abraham and that seed of Jesse Produced Roots Many in fact of which King David is one, and Davids seed produced many roots through his prodgeny and those Roots bore up Jesus of Nazerath a direct offspring of Kind Davids linage who was a direct linage of Jesse who was a direct linage of the Seed of Abraham. Nothing complicated about it . Jesus saying he was the root and Offspring of King David, is only refering to his linage and nothing more . No “NYSTERY” religion need Just simply understanding. Jesus did not say it like this I amd the Root “AND” also the ofspring of David as these false teachers want you to believe, How could he be Both?, He simply made a fast and conplete statement that He is the root and offspring of David Only Preexistences and Trinitarians force the text to imply two different meanings to His words , Roots are alway an expression of linage works back to the object being referd to and that object was King David Jesus was talking about, Jesus was simply stating his Linage and nothing more as from the human race. Which makes him a SON of MAN Just as he said he was.
peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2013,19:41) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2013,02:58) Kerwin,
you said:Quote Second, Jesse is the genealogical root of Jesse as without Jesse there is no Jesse. Jesse is the genealogical root of himself??? Did you mean Jesus?
LU,Jesse is the house of Jesse.
It is a way of speech. For example:
Exodus 4:22
King James Version (KJV)22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Kerwin,
If Jesse is the 'root of Jesse' and Jesus is called the 'root of Jesse' then Jesus is Jesse…NOT!That doesn't work.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 24 2013,21:04) To all ……> Kerwin is right , all branches come from roots, and all roots come from a Seed, Jesse is a Seed of Abraham and that seed of Jesse Produced Roots Many in fact of which King David is one, and Davids seed produced many roots through his prodgeny and those Roots bore up Jesus of Nazerath a direct offspring of Kind Davids linage who was a direct linage of Jesse who was a direct linage of the Seed of Abraham. Nothing complicated about it . Jesus saying he was the root and Offspring of King David, is only refering to his linage and nothing more . No “NYSTERY” religion need Just simply understanding. Jesus did not say it like this I amd the Root “AND” also the ofspring of David as these false teachers want you to believe, How could he be Both?, He simply made a fast and conplete statement that He is the root and offspring of David Only Preexistences and Trinitarians force the text to imply two different meanings to His words , Roots are alway an expression of linage works back to the object being referd to and that object was King David Jesus was talking about, Jesus was simply stating his Linage and nothing more as from the human race. Which makes him a SON of MAN Just as he said he was. peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………………………………..gene
Gene,
If I asked you to name your roots would you list the names of your children or the names of your parents?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2013,19:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,18:37) Also, I think that Kerwin is thinking that, as Jesus is the Branch…those He gives life to will grow out of this Branch and that would make the Branch a type of foundation or 'root' for them but in that case, the 'root' would not be called 'the root of Jesse' but the 'root' of the church.
I haven't read all the posts Kerwin has made to you, but if he understands that others “grow out of” Jesus, making the Branch some kind of a foundational “root”, then he clearly understands that is the ROOT that comes first, and others grow OUT FROM that ROOT.I genuinely like Kerwin. He is knowledgeable, and much mellower than I will ever be. But he just IRRITATES me some times. Like when he PRETENDS to not understand something, just because he KNOWS that acknowledging his understanding of that point will damper his man-made doctrines.
For example, he STILL refuses to answer the simple question about “the love of money”, as the ROOT, coming BEFORE the “all kinds of evil”. He won't answer it, because he KNOWS the answer is, “YES Mike, the root comes BEFORE the “all kinds of evil.”
And if he were to acknowledge this, then what leg would he have left to stand on in the case of “I am the ROOT of David”? NONE. And for that simple reason, he will refuse to answer the question, and just keep playing silly games.
He has just started one of those games with you. Really Kerwin? Jesse is the root of Jesse?
Now watch how far into Bizarro World he takes this claim he made. He will have you jumping through hoops and reading all kinds of bizarre “support” to his claim that a person is the root of THEMSELF. And why? Does this line of reasoning even address Rev 22:16? Is he saying that Jesus IS David, because only David can truly be the root of David?
Of course not. Instead, it is just a way for him to AVOID addressing the actual points in question.Just watch and see how far he will take this thing – just so he doesn't have to deal with or acknowledge the obvious and true points you are making.
Prophet MikeQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2013,09:19) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2013,19:41) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2013,02:58) Kerwin,
you said:Quote Second, Jesse is the genealogical root of Jesse as without Jesse there is no Jesse. Jesse is the genealogical root of himself??? Did you mean Jesus?
LU,Jesse is the house of Jesse.
It is a way of speech. For example:
Exodus 4:22
King James Version (KJV)22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Kerwin,
If Jesse is the 'root of Jesse' and Jesus is called the 'root of Jesse' then Jesus is Jesse…NOT!That doesn't work.
LU,Jesse is the genealogical root of the house of Jesse, aka Jesse.
Jesus is a root of the same house.
Isaiah 11:10
King James Version (KJV)10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Romans 15:12
King James Version (KJV)12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
The definition of root I am using for Jesse being the root of Jesse is ” one or more progenitors of a group of descendants”.
Jesus does not have any descendants of the flesh.
He does have descendants; as all that believe God's promise of the Messiah are his descendants, even those that were conceived, born, and died or ascended before him.
The definition for root I am using.
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