- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Jesus is said to be both the Root AND the Branch of David. Here's are the scriptures:
Isaiah 11:10 NIV
In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.Romans 15:12 NIV
And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him.”Revelation 5:5 NIV
Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”Revelation 22:16 NIV
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”What does this mean? We know Jesus is the Branch, or “offspring” of David according to the flesh, but in what sense is Jesus the Root of David or Jesse (David's father)?
Doesn't this clearly imply that Jesus was before David?
peace and love,
mikeMike…………Notice what it says…..> the lion of the tribe (of) Judah , (which is) the Root of DAVID. Get it Mike? Jesus is from that Root and also the decedent of David who is also from that ROOT.
peace and love to you and yours brother……………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 10 2010,01:10) Mike…………Notice what it says…..> the lion of the tribe (of) Judah , (which is) the Root of DAVID. Get it Mike? Jesus is from that Root and also the decedent of David who is also from that ROOT. peace and love to you and yours brother……………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,1. Is Jesus the Lion OF the tribe of Judah? Yes, because he descended from the tribe of Judah.
2. Is Jesus the Branch of David? Yes, because he came from the line of David.
3. Is Jesus the ROOT of David also? Yes, because he was before David.
All three are scriptural Gene. If “branch” means “came after”, then what does “root” mean?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,15:00) Jesus is said to be both the Root AND the Branch of David. Here's are the scriptures: Isaiah 11:10 NIV
In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.Romans 15:12 NIV
And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him.”Revelation 5:5 NIV
Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”Revelation 22:16 NIV
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”What does this mean? We know Jesus is the Branch, or “offspring” of David according to the flesh, but in what sense is Jesus the Root of David or Jesse (David's father)?
Doesn't this clearly imply that Jesus was before David?
peace and love,
mike
Mikeboll,If those were the only verses in scripture, I would agree that those verses teach the preexistence of JC.
However, please take note that those are not the only verses in scripture.
Genesis 3:15
God announced his plan for a redeemer, while Adam and Eve were the only two humans. As God worked with whom He could to implement those plans, it was clear that the seed of the woman would come out of the lineage of Jesse, and then David.
It is not difficult when you let scripture teach you.
Barley
Barley,
You argument only stands up of you belief that Jesus was ONLY Man and was only ever Man.
Otherwise what you write doesn't make sense.
There is nothing wrong with what Mike has written – just the desperation for others to deliberately misinterpret it.
What is the “Root” if the “Branch” means “After”.
It is not hard to see unless you have your eyes closed.
Root..- – >..Trunk..- – >..Branch
Joh 15:5 `I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from me ye are not able to do anything;
Mike………..The root is describing his start He (Jesus) is from the Roots of David a Jew, but he is also the decedent of DAVID. He then is the root (AND) offspring of DAVID (BOTH) . What is so hard to understand about that, David did not get his start from Jesus but from the Roots of the Jews the same roots of David. Anyway then if he is the offspring of DAVID as He Said HE IS the He did not exist as a Bing before His Berth on earth.
Mike why do you people have to try to weave things into some kind of MYSTERY all the time. You have produced no previous activity of Jesus before His Berth on earth, You don't know His name , His position , His status, or any of His whereabouts, you produce a MYSTERY a Cloud and ask us to Believe it. You deny What Moses said What GOD Said about him being the Seed of the Women, What Paul said about him coming from his brethren and what Peter said about him being manifested in there time, and John saying He came in the Flesh. You produce not scripture that say He was MORPHED into a HUMAN Being , in fact you even hate that Word Morphed and have Yet to explain how that work , nor even anything to address why God would even Do that at all, You Fail to address Martians or my questions on these things, So i ask you again Why would GOD even Do it that way and still say The converted Angle or some super being is (EXACTLY) LIKE US IN EVERY WAY. He would not have been (EXACTLY) like us that would be a LIE to say that.
You preexistences are pushing a MYSTERY Religion Just as the TRINITARIANS DO, in fact the Trinitarians also push preexistence they believe the same way you do Jesus existed as Some kind of GOD or Demigod and was incarnated (MORPHED) into a Flesh body. Why deny the trinity when what you are saying is no difference, in fact the Gnostic's also believe as you guys do. Jesus Shot out from the Pelora and only appears as a Human but was really a god or demigod of some kind. You all Separate Jesus from OUR (EXACT) Identity one way or the other. “MYSTERY BABYLON (confusion) the great Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth”.
peace and love……………………………gene
Gene,
The root of David is Abraham (Blessed of God),
in fact Noah (Blessed of God),
in fact Adam (Son of God).Pok, I don't understand your post – What is it relating to. Seems a random(!) reference to a verse talking about Vine and fruit. If it were relevant it would have been mentioned!
it is relating to Jesus gathering his Disciple and Apostles to him and producing fruit (of the vine) from his root stock as vine plant produces young and strong branches after being pruned and thereafter much fruit (grapes) and further sweet [spiritually] intoxicating wine.
How is this related to David, Jesus and the Root and Branch of descendancy?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 12 2010,02:19) Mike………..The root is describing his start He (Jesus) is from the Roots of David a Jew,
Hi Gene,I'll say it again for you: Jesus is NOT said to be “FROM the ROOTS of David”. He is said to be THE ROOT of David.
Please debate the scripture in question using the actual scriptural words, not your fabrications.
Gene:
Quote You have produced no previous activity of Jesus before His Berth on earth, You don't know His name , His position , His status, or any of His whereabouts, you produce a MYSTERY a Cloud and ask us to Believe it.
Really Gene? When is the last time you read the scriptures? There are almost too many scriptures that speak of Jesus before flesh to count. Master craftsman of God, universe created through him, outstretched arm of God, the Rock the water sprang from in the desert, the firstborn of creation, the beginning of the creation of God, the Word who was with God in the beginning, etc.I can't help it if you want to ignore them……but please don't say I'VE ignored your point.
Please adjust your rebuttal to deal with the actual words “ROOT OF DAVID”, not “from the roots of David”.
mike
Mike,
Some time Gene speaks truth and other time not – for this reason I cannot, dare not, be close to him – causing me much chagrin at times when he is posting good stuff ; Hear that Gene?
Quote (barley @ Sep. 11 2010,12:57) Mikeboll, If those were the only verses in scripture, I would agree that those verses teach the preexistence of JC.
However, please take note that those are not the only verses in scripture.
Genesis 3:15
God announced his plan for a redeemer, while Adam and Eve were the only two humans. As God worked with whom He could to implement those plans, it was clear that the seed of the woman would come out of the lineage of Jesse, and then David.
Hi barley,You are correct: The seed of the woman in 3:15 would eventually come from the line of David. But I fail to see how that would imply that Jesus didn't pre-exist his flesh.
Even though I can sense JA cringing already, Ignatius said:
He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh…
This is also how I see it. And I don't quote Ignatius as if his words were inspired of God like the scriptures, but he was taught by the Apostle John himself. I came to my understanding by reading the Bible by myself…….alone with nobody to sway my thoughts that this scripture means this, or that scripture means that.
Which makes me wonder how you came to your understanding. Martian has posted that he showed some of the things I've said to others in his church and they laughed. That leads me to believe that Martian belongs to a church that teaches that Jesus didn't pre-exist…….do you? Can you say your understanding stems from only scripture…..or had you been “swayed” long ago to believe that Jesus didn't pre-exist, and have since had that belief deeply engraved into your psyche?
I'm just askin……but not THE JustAskin.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 12 2010,07:12) Mike, Some time Gene speaks truth and other time not – for this reason I cannot, dare not, be close to him – causing me much chagrin at times when he is posting good stuff ; Hear that Gene?
Hi JA,I understand completely what you are saying, but I try not to look at it that way. It's like you and I. We have done mortal combat against each other on some topics, but I will gladly stand with you on most of your understanding of the scriptures. Same with Kathi…..and the same with Ed and Gene and others.
So I would suggest for you to “go to war” against the unscriptural things he says and keep that completely separate from the subjects you are able to stand side by side with him and fight the good fight.
At least that's what I try to do here on HN.
peace and love,
mikeMike……….So in YOUR mind Jesus was where DAVID Came From Right , Please explain this to us then. I THOUGHT JESUS WAS A DECEDENT OF David from the the same Root Stock of DAVID so show how your theory works them. Or is this just another MYSTERY RELIGION your Pushing. Please give us clarity not speculations. I know the holy Spirit was in David as well as Jesus and it is in all who have it also , So i suppose we can all say that David , Jesus and the rest are from OUR root stock to, in a spiritual sense, applying it your way. So How does that make Jesus any different from us then as you preach. The only thing i See is He was the FIRST ONE TO BE (BORN) To go into the KINGDOM of GOD From Mankind. But you change that and Say He already WAS BORN , how was He (BORN) Please explain if you can.
peace and love………………………..gene
You said He was the Son of GOD, Are we not also Sons of GOD?, You say he was the First born of the Creation, that can be taken many way. One way is He was the First (BORN) did you notice the word (BORN) of the CREATION of GOD. WE all Know He was NOT the first (BORN) Person Cain WAS. So are we to eliminate the word (BORN) and say He was FIRST CREATED to Meet you dogmas. A created being is (NOT) a BORN Being. In order to be (BORN) he Had to come into existence through a WOMB of a WOMEN. You still have not produced ONE Scripture that say Jesus was a live Being Before His Berth here on EARTH. You may say there all are kinds of them but i and others have Yet to see them but them any can delude themselves to believe anything they want to. Trinitarians and Preexistences are proof of that.
Here Gene……let me say it again – just in case you missed it…….again.
Jesus is NOT said to be “FROM the ROOTS of David”. He is said to be THE ROOT of David.
Please debate the scripture in question using the actual scriptural words, not your fabrications.
Your thoughts about pre-existence in general don't actually answer the question about how Jesus can be called THE ROOT of David.
If you want to refute the scripture or explain how it somehow doesn't refer to Jesus being before David, then please do so. But I have read your same old rhetoric about “Pre-exsisters and Trinitarians” at least 20 times……and it is just fluff. It is merely YOUR OPINION, and doesn't refute the scriptures in question.
Either you CAN refute the scripture or you CAN'T – it's that simple. Pondering why God would do certain things the way HE chose to requires info we aren't yet privy to. In other words, to say Jesus didn't pre-exist because your human brain cannot comprehend why God would have sent His pre-existent Son as His Messiah is useless. It doesn't matter what our feeble human minds can grasp – it only matters what the scriptures say.
peace and love,
mikeMike……..Do you know what the Word (OF) Means I have ask you this before. OF is the Same as FROM it identifies the source. I gave you an example remember, Gene of California that is my roots of identity it is my roots where i reside or coming from. Of or From are interchangeable in meaning. The Spirit OF GOD is the Spirit FROM GOD right? Why because that is where its originates from. Jesus roots and from the same Roots of DAVID , He is a JEW as David WAS and He is a Decedent of DAVID also. Both roots and offspring of DAVID, Can't you see how this preexistence religion has screwed up your thinking Brother. You can;t even get something simple straight in you mind your preexistences have to constantly come up with some other way to see thing just as the Trinitarians always do to. IMO
peace and love………………………gene
Come on Gene!
You know it has to do with the context. Jehovah is the God OF Christians…..does that mean Jehovah came FROM Christians?
It says Jesus is the Root and Branch of David. Do you agree “branch” means Jesus was after David? If so, then if you are honest with yourself, you'll also have to agree that “root” means Jesus was before David.
If you don't want to see it, then I can't make you.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,15:00) Jesus is said to be both the Root AND the Branch of David. Here's are the scriptures: Isaiah 11:10 NIV
In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.Romans 15:12 NIV
And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him.”Revelation 5:5 NIV
Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”Revelation 22:16 NIV
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”What does this mean? We know Jesus is the Branch, or “offspring” of David according to the flesh, but in what sense is Jesus the Root of David or Jesse (David's father)?
Doesn't this clearly imply that Jesus was before David?
peace and love,
mike
Mike, you answered your own question,“””Doesn't this clearly imply that Jesus was before David?”””
That is exactly what it means.
Georg
Mike………..Roots of Jesus is the Same ROOTS OF KING DAVID Jesus is from the Same Roots of DAVID and is also the offspring of DAVID. Why would it Jesus say I am the (ROOT AND OFFSPRING) (OF) David. He is identifying himself with King David. There is no double meaning there. And if it were it still would not mean Jesus was being intended there it could just as well mean the Spirit or GOD, was the root of David as well as Jesus. They both came from one Source GOD> The point is Jesus was Identifying himself with DAVID. And Has nothing to do with the preexistence of Jesus at all. Mike your just grabbing for straws to support you false Preexistence teachings. IMO
peace and love………………………gene
Hi Georg,
Of course that's what it means.
Gene, I've shown you three times that it doesn't say “RootS”, but “Root”. I'm done with you. You don't want to learn, you don't want to teach, you just want to keep spouting your wishes for Jesus to have been exactly like the rest of us.
You are a waste of my time Gene. I thought you might actually have answers to why some of these scriptures that I think clearly say Jesus pre-existed really don't say that at all. But you don't have any scriptural answers at all Gene. All I am learning from you at this point is how stubborn you can be by sticking with your doctrine even though you have nothing to refute the scriptures that say Jesus pre-existed.
This discussion has run it's course.
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
