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Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,00:31) And so, like mike, I hold out that a small percentage could be real. At the very least, you have to admit that if these things do happen, they are exceedingly rare.
Ahhhh……………… peace at last!
So, that being said, you really have no idea if t8's glass was raised by a demon. You THINK it wasn't a demon, but who are you? In a world of BILLIONS of encounters like this, why would someone who knows how some illusions work be considered an “expert” on the subject?
David, I like you. I always have. So I don't want to fight with you about this anymore. And I think it's so cool how you immediately recognize how these amazing illusions are done.
But you have no idea of what happened at t8's seance, nor of what happened at my Ouija Board experience. I believe like the JW's – that Ouija Boards and the like are a “gateway” to the demonic world. It is a way of “inviting them” into your life. I believe drugs are also a gateway. And certain books and items, like books on witchcraft, devil worship, etc.
I don't believe that when Paul said our struggle was against the dark forces of evil, he meant…………. BUT ONLY FOR THE NEXT FEW YEARS.
I'm happy we agree that, rare or not, there is a percentage of this stuff that is real.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,12:56) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,20:39) Mike? what do you think? Are these miracles?
Yes David. I would categorize them as miracles.Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.If these “coincidences” lead a person to God – or away from killing themselves out of despair; and coincidentally cause much rejoicing in heaven……… then YES, they are miracles.
Mike (and Pierre)So, you are saying that when Witnesses, find their way to a persons door who was praying, that it is a miracle, (an act of God) or at the very least, the work of the Holy Spirit? (Same thing)
But, I would think that neither of you believe GOd is working through JW's. so, why do you think that GOd is causing miracles to be happening? I mean, if JW's are teaching false things as you believe, then why would GOd want to direct witnesses to people that are praying for help?
I would like it if both of you could comment on that please.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,13:01) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,21:06) And again, if anyone should be ashamed, it should be you for so badly misrepresenting what I actually said. When someone misquotes someone so badly, I tend to lose some respect for them as being an honest person with them self.
You keep telling yourself those lies if it makes you feel better about yourself, David.(See folks? I'm immune to reproach because of “David's Rule”, which says you're not really calling someone a liar if you only say he's lying to himself.
)
Mike, people don't call people who are lying to them self “liars.” They call them delusional.Am I wrong to guess that you would suspect that everyone on here who doesn't agree with you on any particular subject is convincing them self of something that is false?
Take me believing that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit being. If I say that there is ample proof for this, do you think I am lying to myself? Probably. Would you call me a liar because of it? No.
So, there is a difference.
Lying (to someone else on purpose) is different than lying to ourself to protect our beliefs.
Maybe the cultural norm where you live is different than here, but the two are not equal.
One means you are a bad person who speaks falsely. The other means you are deluding yourself.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2012,12:25) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,19:02) t8, you are definitely lying to yourself if you have told yourself you have no agenda in protecting your belief about what you believe happened with the ouija board. You have a great deal to lose, and far more than I. You were an atheist. This experience gave you permission to believe. It is somewhere near the core of your belief. I know you can't admit that and believe at everything you believe is based on logic–everyone believes this.
David,You are going too far in your above accusations. I support t8's answer to those accusations:
Could you imagine how foolish a man would be to deny his own testimony and experience because a self-appointed expert told him he must deny it.
You have neither a clue about what happened to t8, nor the right to accuse him of lying about it. You should be ashamed of yourself.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?People deceive themselves. It's sometimes good to seek out qualified expert advice, realizing that humans are imperfect, and often desperately wanting to believe something.
Quote But what is the difference. If you can say that today all these things are fake, then you can argue equally for Jesus and the Apostles time t8, what possible reason would I have to argue that?
ILLUSTRATION:
If I am handed a coin, a nickel and look at and examine the Nickel very closely, although it is called a nickel, i find that it isn't made out of nickel, but rather mostly steel. And then I examine another one and another, and soon realize that all the nickels of my time are made out of steel. Soon I have boxes and boxes of nickels, all made from steel.
Someone says: this doesn't prove that all nickels are made of steel. And I say: show me one from this time that isn't. And they say: just because you have found so many steel nickels doesn't prove they all are. Then I say: show me just one.
The above is the discussion we are having.
BUT, Meanwhile, i happen to know that in the past, Canadian nickels and US Nikels used to be made of nickel. (That's how they got their name of course).
Quote And why the difference between then and now. We need these things more than ever. The perfect is not realised yet. JEsus will come back for a bride without spot and blemish. Last time I looked, the bride is still here. Thus for the interpretation of one verse, the gifts are now no longer existence according to you. No, we have the bible now.
We have a record now.
See by faith and not sight. Remember?
Back then, when Christianity was new, they needed a “sign” or a stamp to show that it had GOds backing, and it needed a push and jump start to get it growing.
Quote On the other hand that interpretation of that verse could be wrong. And so God did not leave us defenseless, but gave us his Spirit and good things from his Spirit to see us through this present darkness and all the way to the end. Well it could be but doesn't seem to be based on reality and what is really happening.
Quote I think if you were able to wash your mind from JW doctrine, then you would be able to reason better and have clarity on such things too. But you have to overcome these beliefs that hinder you. T8, you really don't have any idea what you are talking about here.
I am bored of repeating this. There are two separate things: miracles, such as the gifts of the spirit, talking in tongues, miraculous hearings. (They believe this has ceased)
And, we have also been discussing things like psychics and ouija boards and such. (They agree with you on this)Yet, I, who have studied both in detail, do not agree that anything supernatural is happening with ouija boards or psychics, or such things.
There. Your theory has just been destroyed.
Yet, you will repeat it again in a couple of pages.
Quote (david @ Nov. 30 2012,10:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,12:56) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,20:39) Mike? what do you think? Are these miracles?
Yes David. I would categorize them as miracles.Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.If these “coincidences” lead a person to God – or away from killing themselves out of despair; and coincidentally cause much rejoicing in heaven……… then YES, they are miracles.
Mike (and Pierre)So, you are saying that when Witnesses, find their way to a persons door who was praying, that it is a miracle, (an act of God) or at the very least, the work of the Holy Spirit? (Same thing)
But, I would think that neither of you believe GOd is working through JW's. so, why do you think that GOd is causing miracles to be happening? I mean, if JW's are teaching false things as you believe, then why would GOd want to direct witnesses to people that are praying for help?
I would like it if both of you could comment on that please.
DavidI have answered you already on this , the JW are not the only religion group that have experience this ,I had people ask me on my job what they have to take from the JW message of the time of the end
1975. It put many unrest in some ,any public organization will at times encounter these people that are suicidal ,
Your organization is not special or more than the other ones,They are all base their success on the ignorance of the people target,
They liberate you on one side and put on the shackle on the other foot
Being saved his being freed by Christ not by an organization of men,
Quote But you have no idea of what happened at t8's seance Mike, based on what I know, neither does T8, if we are going to speak like that.
Of course, we both have some idea about what happened. Our interpretations are different.
Mike, I dislike it every time I attempt to use some sort of appeal to authority type of argument, but I have been making things “appear” to levitate for exactly 30 years. I could easily replicate T8's experience with someone else and have thought of several ways to do it. None of this means T8's experience wasn't real.
People are highly susceptible to seeing miracles when they believe God is involved and highly conditioned to see real magic when they think demons are involved. It is ridiculously easy to deceive people who want to see magic.
I know this is a weird thought, but why don't we mail ouija boards to atheists? Generally speaking, atheists aren't looking for magic or aren't expecting to see it. So, they don't.
I really think given his background, T8 needed to make sense of the world. He wanted a father that loved him. He was probably looking for meaning. But most atheists aren't. However, if there is magic associated with this, why not invite atheists to test it out?
Quote So, that being said, you really have no idea if t8's glass was raised by a demon. You THINK it wasn't a demon, but who are you? In a world of BILLIONS of encounters like this, why would someone who knows how some illusions work be considered an “expert” on the subject? Ockhams razor.
Or the zebra thing.
I think it makes sense to start with the more obvious, and in this case, it is deception, or false perception. As we agreed, these things are quite rare. But what isn't rare is people fooling themself or others. We should start with that assumption, if that is the most likely scenario.
Is that not logical?
MIKE, I never said there is a “percentage of this stuff that is real.”
That is what you wanted to see.
I said that I am giving a .01% chance that I am wrong, but said it would be because I am in a dream or the matrix or the twilight zone or something like that. I wake up and I'm in the true man show and everything is a lie. Or there is some conspiracy where a cast of thousands have been purposely creating a world around me that isn't quite real.
But, based on reality today, none of these things can ever be replicated or caught on camera even. None of them can ever be done under test conditions, ever. You can give James randi 1000 ouija boards and he can lock himself in a dark room with them all and scream at the top of his lungs, but demons won't do anything. Why?
When I see something levitate (which happens way more than anyone here) I always ask myself:
What is more likely:
1. I missed something or saw it wrong?
2. Or, it was actually levitating?(And we should stop calling it levitating. It was suspended. A bit of a difference. Levitation is much harder to pull off and much more impressive. Suspension is quite a bit easier, and can happen accidentally with some objects if you have sticky pinky's and good thumb positioning.)
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 30 2012,16:31) Quote (david @ Nov. 30 2012,10:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,12:56) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,20:39) Mike? what do you think? Are these miracles?
Yes David. I would categorize them as miracles.Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.If these “coincidences” lead a person to God – or away from killing themselves out of despair; and coincidentally cause much rejoicing in heaven……… then YES, they are miracles.
Mike (and Pierre)So, you are saying that when Witnesses, find their way to a persons door who was praying, that it is a miracle, (an act of God) or at the very least, the work of the Holy Spirit? (Same thing)
But, I would think that neither of you believe GOd is working through JW's. so, why do you think that GOd is causing miracles to be happening? I mean, if JW's are teaching false things as you believe, then why would GOd want to direct witnesses to people that are praying for help?
I would like it if both of you could comment on that please.
DavidI have answered you already on this , the JW are not the only religion group that have experience this ,I had people ask me on my job what they have to take from the JW message of the time of the end
1975. It put many unrest in some ,any public organization will at times encounter these people that are suicidal ,
Your organization is not special or more than the other ones,They are all base their success on the ignorance of the people target,
They liberate you on one side and put on the shackle on the other foot
Being saved his being freed by Christ not by an organization of men,
Pierre, you really like to focus on things I am not arguing against.What I asked you was:
Was God leading those JW to those people's doors that were praying for help?
Yes?
No!
“Some people left the theatre convinced they'd seen a miracle. Others, the work of the devil.”
PEPPERS GHOST (blue room illusion)
Quote (david @ Nov. 30 2012,11:54) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 30 2012,16:31) Quote (david @ Nov. 30 2012,10:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,12:56) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,20:39) Mike? what do you think? Are these miracles?
Yes David. I would categorize them as miracles.Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.If these “coincidences” lead a person to God – or away from killing themselves out of despair; and coincidentally cause much rejoicing in heaven……… then YES, they are miracles.
Mike (and Pierre)So, you are saying that when Witnesses, find their way to a persons door who was praying, that it is a miracle, (an act of God) or at the very least, the work of the Holy Spirit? (Same thing)
But, I would think that neither of you believe GOd is working through JW's. so, why do you think that GOd is causing miracles to be happening? I mean, if JW's are teaching false things as you believe, then why would GOd want to direct witnesses to people that are praying for help?
I would like it if both of you could comment on that please.
DavidI have answered you already on this , the JW are not the only religion group that have experience this ,I had people ask me on my job what they have to take from the JW message of the time of the end
1975. It put many unrest in some ,any public organization will at times encounter these people that are suicidal ,
Your organization is not special or more than the other ones,They are all base their success on the ignorance of the people target,
They liberate you on one side and put on the shackle on the other foot
Being saved his being freed by Christ not by an organization of men,
Pierre, you really like to focus on things I am not arguing against.What I asked you was:
Was God leading those JW to those people's doors that were praying for help?
Yes?
No!
DavidIt is no,and yes because how can I answer that question wen it would be God to answer it,but what was the out come of the encounter
Let me be clear ,I do not believe that any religion his doing Gods will but they do for a prize what God want them to do ,and that is putting Gods word in people's hand ,the rest of the work God can do though his holy spirit,it is God that saves not menSo, then, even though you didn't answer it yes or no, you seem to be saying “no.” And that makes sense for you to say if you don't believe that JW are backed by God. Either God is helping JW or not. Why would God direct them to people interested in getting help if God isn't behind JW's?
Is your answer that you don't know? Because at first you said it was a miracle, but now you seem to be retracting from that idea.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=YAjKUvDJplw
David copperfield.
Quote (david @ Nov. 30 2012,17:11) So, then, even though you didn't answer it yes or no, you seem to be saying “no.” And that makes sense for you to say if you don't believe that JW are backed by God. Either God is helping JW or not. Why would God direct them to people interested in getting help if God isn't behind JW's? Is your answer that you don't know? Because at first you said it was a miracle, but now you seem to be retracting from that idea.
David.God does not send JWS out to preach;they send themselves.
How do I know this? because God does not send people out preaching another Jesus,and another gospel.Preaching Jesus is the angel Micha'el.This is a great error,no Holy spirit will be part of this doctrine.Preaching that only the elders will be resurrected in spirit.This is contra scriptures.No Holy spirit wil be involved in this error.
The JWS are just like white supulchres from the outside,but inside is full of dead mans bones.They are as evil as the catholics regarding incest and abuse.They are being investigated in australia.
God did not send the catholics to preach error either.
They are leaders leading the unweary flock to the slaughter.
Appearing good to the flock,but leading them away from God.
Their reward is coming soon.Sorry to be so harsh on these religions,but they are blocking the way to the truth.MIRACLES:
There are miracles seen and unseen with the eyes,but seen with the mind.
I see a baby conceived and born as a miracle
Most see that just as nature.I can see fruits coming out of the dirth; is a miracle.I see tons and tons of water transported through the air as a miracle.What about you?wakeup.
Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,22:54) But, I would think that neither of you believe GOd is working through JW's.
Why would you think that? I don't agree with every JW interpretation of scripture, but “whoever is not against us is for us.” (Mark 9:38-41)Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2012,10:19) Quote (david @ Nov. 30 2012,17:11) So, then, even though you didn't answer it yes or no, you seem to be saying “no.” And that makes sense for you to say if you don't believe that JW are backed by God. Either God is helping JW or not. Why would God direct them to people interested in getting help if God isn't behind JW's? Is your answer that you don't know? Because at first you said it was a miracle, but now you seem to be retracting from that idea.
David.God does not send JWS out to preach;they send themselves.
How do I know this? because God does not send people out preaching another Jesus,and another gospel.Preaching Jesus is the angel Micha'el.This is a great error,no Holy spirit will be part of this doctrine.Preaching that only the elders will be resurrected in spirit.This is contra scriptures.No Holy spirit wil be involved in this error.
The JWS are just like white supulchres from the outside,but inside is full of dead mans bones.They are as evil as the catholics regarding incest and abuse.They are being investigated in australia.
God did not send the catholics to preach error either.
They are leaders leading the unweary flock to the slaughter.
Appearing good to the flock,but leading them away from God.
Their reward is coming soon.Sorry to be so harsh on these religions,but they are blocking the way to the truth.MIRACLES:
There are miracles seen and unseen with the eyes,but seen with the mind.
I see a baby conceived and born as a miracle
Most see that just as nature.I can see fruits coming out of the dirth; is a miracle.I see tons and tons of water transported through the air as a miracle.What about you?wakeup.
So, WAKEUP, you would say that the example I gave, aren't miraculous.Mike and Pierre, do you agree?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,11:19) Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,22:54) But, I would think that neither of you believe GOd is working through JW's.
Why would you think that? I don't agree with every JW interpretation of scripture, but “whoever is not against us is for us.” (Mark 9:38-41)
Ok, I didn't think you thought that mike. Given that belief, I see how you could view my examples as miracles.So you think that JW are “for us” and “not against us.”
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