- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2012,09:02) David, An atheist of today would claim Jesus used trickery. The miracle of water to wine was simply a substitution of wine for water. Mary, being his mother, was in on the trick.
Can you prove such an individual is wrong?
I would never try to kerwin. Nor have I in this thread as I've pointed out repeatedly.Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,05:12) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 29 2012,09:10) Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,03:48) WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID IN FULL (nov 27): Quote “This idea actually DISPROVES what you say. As I've said already, by all rights I should believe as you do regarding demons today. I have had peer pressure to believe such (as you do). I have been told to believe such. (As you do). Yet, I, more than anyone I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyoneI know, examined these things closely. I found deception. I found people like you. I found people who create fallacies and lie and do anything they can to support a belief that is so emotional to them, and so close to the core of their beliefs. And so irrational and unprovable.” The bold is what T8 quoted me saying.
The underline is what I said in full.
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANINGS.
T8 sometimes sees what he wants to see even when it is completely not in line with reality.
Mike, we are all imperfect. We all make mistakes in perception. t8 just made one.
If T8's mistake wasn't pointed out, he would go on to believe that I actually said what he believed I did. It would be his experience that I said that. It would be his testimony (which would be wrong) against mine. Eye witness testimony isn't reliable. People make errors. Even T8. He saw what he wanted to here.
Davidcan you point out what is it that t8 says and did that is so importante because I cannot see it ,
I know my english need to be improve so show it to me in common words ,thank you
Terrarica, I was saying that I have examined these things far more than anyone I know. I said:“I, more than anyone I know, far more than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely.”
But T8 chopped the beginning words off and the end words off creating a very different meaning:
“I know, far more than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone.”
DECEPTION.
Now, MIKE, M I K E, is this self deception? Yes. It's not impossible for T 8 to deceive himself. Before I said MIKE that t8 was lying to himself (self deception) if he was saying he had no agenda in protecting his belief.
You, MIKE, jumped on me and wrongly accused me of saying I was saying T8 was lying. I was saying he was lying to “himself.” (Deceiving himself). This is clearly an example that shows he is not immune to this, right MIKE? Because we are all prone to make mistakes in perception, we really shouldn't be overly confident in our own perception. We deceive ourselves based on what we want to see.This has been demonstrated.
davidso it is because he left out the letters I KNOW
THAT YOU THINK IT CHANGES THE MEANING right
it does but it seems I felt the same way when you used EDJ comment to me ,
it seem we have many things to blame on each other but is it worthed remember the ones that looks for truth will find it regardless of what any one says ,
it seems we are all leaning on the side
some timesT8 has vanished. Thus proving my theory of magic wrong.
Pierre, no, it's not because he left out the words “I know” at the end.
The meaning or impression that was created was that I said: I KNOW FAR FAR FAR MORE THAN ANYONE.
I in no way was even close to conveying that meaning at all.
I was saying that I have examined these things far far far more than anyone I know. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of beginning by saying that “I know” this. I know that I have examined these things far more than anyone I know. That is the meaning. t8 did a masterful job of finding a meaning where there was not one.
His mind saw what it wanted to see.
(((((Terrarica, I fail to see how this is comparable to when I asked you not to go off topic in that other thread. I wasn't tricking you. I didn't want you to go off thread. Ed was the one that pulled you off thread, and I merely mentioned for a second time that you and he should stay on topic.)))
Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,12:29) T8 has vanished. Thus proving my theory of magic wrong. Pierre, no, it's not because he left out the words “I know” at the end.
The meaning or impression that was created was that I said: I KNOW FAR FAR FAR MORE THAN ANYONE.
I in no way was even close to conveying that meaning at all.
I was saying that I have examined these things far far far more than anyone I know. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of beginning by saying that “I know” this. I know that I have examined these things far more than anyone I know. That is the meaning. t8 did a masterful job of finding a meaning where there was not one.
His mind saw what it wanted to see.
(((((Terrarica, I fail to see how this is comparable to when I asked you not to go off topic in that other thread. I wasn't tricking you. I didn't want you to go off thread. Ed was the one that pulled you off thread, and I merely mentioned for a second time that you and he should stay on topic.)))
Yea, always blame me.Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 29 2012,14:48)
Hi Wakeup,The trick is pretty obvious, I don't know why you're so baffled over it.
You can see that the angle of his hand in the case is at 45°,
while the dummy hand above the case is at 10°.Also, a duplicate bracelet is in his blocking hand, putting it
into the dummy hand, while his real hand goes back into his coat.
When he casually walks up, you can easily tell that his right hand is a fake.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd.
Wrong.
You think he had a fake hand? How would that even help? Think harder.
Cyril takayama did this trick amazingly, the first I ever saw. I can try to find his video. He combined this method seen in this video with the magnet and coin method I mentioned before. When you combine two completely different methods, it really makes it harder for people to figure out.
Ask yourself: What is special about glass?
I should let you know that it was set up. He didn't just walk into a random store. The jewelry case is gimmicked. Does that help?
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=k5_go927sYU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dk5_go927sYU
Ed and WAKEUP, first he does the coin through glass trick that I explained before. (Notice the ring again. Coincidence? No). Then he does the same effect this guy did. But, Cyril may well have been the first one to do the trick in this way, with his hand.
Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,15:28) http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=k5_go927sYU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dk5_go927sYU Ed and WAKEUP, first he does the coin through glass trick that I explained before. (Notice the ring again. Coincidence? No). Then he does the same effect this guy did. But, Cyril may well have been the first one to do the trick in this way, with his hand.
I can't watch the videos from that link, can you?YouTube Cyril takayama glass table. You should find it. To figure out a trick (or how psychics work or anything like that)
1. Watch various people doing the same trick
2. Note the similarities.
3. Ask why those similarities exist.
4. If there is always a similarity, it is probably not an accident and there is a reason for it.
5. Ask what that reason is.
6. When you can't figure it out, ask someone that already has done all these things.I'll just tell you how the glass table works: there is a…
Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,11:48) WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID IN FULL (nov 27): Quote “This idea actually DISPROVES what you say. As I've said already, by all rights I should believe as you do regarding demons today. I have had peer pressure to believe such (as you do). I have been told to believe such. (As you do). Yet, I, more than anyone I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely. I found deception. I found people like you. I found people who create fallacies and lie and do anything they can to support a belief that is so emotional to them, and so close to the core of their beliefs. And so irrational and unprovable.” The bold is what T8 quoted me saying.
The underline is what I said in full.
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANINGS.
T8 sometimes sees what he wants to see even when it is completely not in line with reality.
Mike, we are all imperfect. We all make mistakes in perception. t8 just made one.
If T8's mistake wasn't pointed out, he would go on to believe that I actually said what he believed I did. It would be his experience that I said that. It would be his testimony (which would be wrong) against mine. Eye witness testimony isn't reliable. People make errors. Even T8. He saw what he wanted to here.
Yes I can see that. No problem with what you say and sorry because the end of the sentence changes the meaning as to what I understood it to mean. This is because I confess to actually skim reading your post due to lack of time.If I read everything carefully, I would certainly not have enough time to reply to everyone.
Thanks for pointing that out and again apologies.
I still stand by the main thrust of what I said in that post, (minus that of course).
And in reply to this comment:
Quote If T8's mistake wasn't pointed out, he would go on to believe that I actually said what he believed I did. It would be his experience that I said that. It would be his testimony (which would be wrong) against mine. Eye witness testimony isn't reliable. People make errors. Even T8. He saw what he wanted to here.
Well if you explained to me that you actually said that, and I was not able to check it out, then I am pretty sure I would give you the benefit of the doubt. Especially because I read things quickly and the fact that you would likely not lie about this IMO.Also, something like this is easy to mistake, but when you actually see something that is suppose to be impossible and you are not the only witness, then that certainly is harder to explain and one explanation that should never be overlooked is that it is what it appeared to be.
And as I said before, you are allowed to not believe an experience of mine. But I believe it is wrong to say that what I experienced is 100% not correct. When you do that, you show your bias and you aptly demonstrate the very mental processes that you are talking about when it comes to deception. Because saying that is no different to an Atheist who says that God does not exist, period. Or a scientist who says that there is no life on other planets.
A fair man would likely say, I find that very hard to believe, but because I was not there, I cannot know this for sure.
See the difference david. I at least think you should acknowledge your own biased conclusion here is based on your belief in certain things. Or are you immune to scrutiny yourself.
Like I said, had you said, I don't believe but cannot know for sure, then I would respect that. But you didn't do that. You in deed came across as all knowing and still do. So even though I misread your “I know more than anyone else” comment, you have to admit that you are acting like this comment even if you never actually said it.
Quote Also, something like this is easy to mistake, but when you actually see something that is suppose to be impossible and you are not the only witness, then that certainly is harder to explain and one explanation that should never be overlooked is that it is what it appeared to be. And as I said before, you are allowed to not believe an experience of mine. But I believe it is wrong to say that what I experienced is 100% not correct. When you do that, you show your bias and you aptly demonstrate the very mental processes that you are talking about when it comes to deception. Because saying that is no different to an Atheist who says that God does not exist, period. Or a scientist who says that there is no life on other planets.
A fair man would likely say, I find that very hard to believe, but because I was not there, I cannot know this for sure.
See the difference david. I at least think you should acknowledge your own biased conclusion here is based on your belief in certain things. Or are you immune to scrutiny yourself.
First, thank you for acknowledging this. It was beginning to feel awkward.
I'm not saying that what you “experienced” was 100% incorrect. I'm sure much of what you believe you experienced was real. You were really there. Your friend was real. The ouija board was real. The glass was real.
If I have a bias it is this: I know that despite a person believing they absolutely know they saw something, they are very often wrong. I now that in this area, like faith healing for example, when BELIEF is involved, magical things seem to happen.
People are expecting and looking for something to happen.
Perhaps you were looking for and wanting something magical to happen. (This is often the case with ouija boards–people wanting to see magic)With faith healing, thousands of people say “I know what I saw.” These people are there because they want to believe, just like people play with ouija boards because they want to believe in magic. So, those people who say: “I was there, I know what I saw,” may well have been there, while I was not there. But I may well have spent countless hours considering these things while they just watched a magic trick with little thought involved.
Remember when mike said that he believed 90 plus % of it is fake (I can't remember exact number he said.). Well, as I said before I this thread: for years I had told myself that 98% or 99% was fake. Now, I would say that at least 99.99% is fake. At least that much, but I have no indication that it is less than that.
And so, like mike, I hold out that a small percentage could be real. But of course, for me, this 0.01% chance involves me waking up from a dream or me being hit on the head by a bat and waking up, or me figuring out that I'm in some twilight zone matrix type scenario.
It's simple math. If I study 100 cases and see that they are all done the same way, that's one thing. If I study 10,000 and they all contain traces of deception, then that is something else. Perhaps the 10,001th thing will be real magic.
Except this isn't random. I know the things that are clearly fake. And I know the things that are harder to explain. I know that a lot of things look very genuine and some things aren't even 100% understood.
There is a group of people that have examined the ouija board from every angle. Not just the board, but the method used. What they found was the human mind. And no, they didn't examine each and every case. If there are cases that are real or different, they should be videotaped. It bothers me how many big foot sightings and UFO sightings we have, but none with clear imaging. I don't know about where you live, but here, everyone has a camera on their cell phone and everyone carries their cell.
At the very least, you have to admit that if these things do happen, they are exceedingly rare.
Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,20:31) I'm not saying that what you “experienced” was 100% incorrect. I'm sure much of what you believe you experienced was real. You were really there. Your friend was real. The ouija board was real. The glass was real.
david, there was no Ouija Board. I said this a few times now.Yes I see what you are saying david. But things do happen as well. Obviously that is a given.
We cannot discount things just because you never saw it happen.I would never think to do that to a person. I think it would be very arrogant to discount anyone's experience.
Personally speaking I believe that the universe is a result of consciousness, not the other way around. Hence why belief is important and why even belief in the wrong thing can result in signs of your belief.
Consciousness is an amazing thing and belief is powerful. Belief opens the doors of conscious reality, and can also create illusions of reality because it can be manipulated. We are told in scripture that deception will be so powerful in the end times that even if it were possible, even the elect would be deceived.
I think you understand perhaps more than most about how the mind works, but I also know that belief in lies is powerful simply because belief itself is powerful. For example, I believe that I exist and because of that, I do exist. I believe that God exists and because I believe that, it is part of my reality. But that just means that belief in what is real is even more powerful because when I am aligned with truth, then that light shines through the darkness of lies and not the other way round.
We can believe in lies and we can believe in truth. Belief itself does not define what is true or what is a lie. No. Belief is what connects you to either. It opens the door which in turn leads to many more doors. If you open a lie, then that leads to more lies. If you open the door of truth, then we can be led into all truth.
At the end of the day we both have access to scripture and the Spirit of God. But what I have that you do not have and vice versa is my testimony and experience. I wouldn't say your experience and testimony were wrong or false, even though I may have a view on that. I would never do that because I wouldn't want to call what God may have done as a lie or even what happened to you that was not of God as a lie. I would not dare take the chance to call God a liar or to call you a liar or a deceived person. But I would bring your belief to scripture and test it because we are encouraged to do that. I cannot comment on your testimony and experience as I was not there, but I can cast scriptural light on what you say. And from that light, you can judge for yourself if your experience is true or not.
That is why I asked earlier on to go to the scriptures and talk about the activity of demons from there. That was always the wise way to approach this and still is. If scripture supports that demons can interact with man, then that shows in the least that it is possible and saying it is impossible is then wrong. If scripture says this cannot happen, then we can assume to explain it in terms that you are describing. So my problem with your stance is that you went straight to the latter based on bias alone, hence I think that you should be judging yourself with your own mental reasoning because you are making a decision based not on scriptural truth, but on your own mental reasoning.
And what does scripture say about that?
“He who trusts in himself is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom is kept safe.”
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths.”
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,20:39) Mike? what do you think? Are these miracles?
Yes David. I would categorize them as miracles.Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.If these “coincidences” lead a person to God – or away from killing themselves out of despair; and coincidentally cause much rejoicing in heaven……… then YES, they are miracles.
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,21:06) And again, if anyone should be ashamed, it should be you for so badly misrepresenting what I actually said. When someone misquotes someone so badly, I tend to lose some respect for them as being an honest person with them self.
You keep telling yourself those lies if it makes you feel better about yourself, David.(See folks? I'm immune to reproach because of “David's Rule”, which says you're not really calling someone a liar if you only say he's lying to himself.
)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,16:01) you're not really calling someone a liar if you only say he's lying to himself. Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,13:40) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2012,09:02) David, An atheist of today would claim Jesus used trickery. The miracle of water to wine was simply a substitution of wine for water. Mary, being his mother, was in on the trick.
Can you prove such an individual is wrong?
I would never try to kerwin. Nor have I in this thread as I've pointed out repeatedly.
But what is the difference. If you can say that today all these things are fake, then you can argue equally for Jesus and the Apostles time. And if you don't argue that then someone else will. But who laid the stumbling block?And why the difference between then and now. We need these things more than ever. The perfect is not realised yet. JEsus will come back for a bride without spot and blemish. Last time I looked, the bride is still here. Thus for the interpretation of one verse, the gifts are now no longer existence according to you.
Well how about that. They are our example in how to preach and help the poor and sick, and then in one obscure verse we are told it is no longer valid and by reason of that obscurity, men miss that fact and are now under the domain of demons or self-delusion as a result.
That is very sad david. Poor believers, they weren't given much chance were they.
On the other hand that interpretation of that verse could be wrong. And so God did not leave us defenseless, but gave us his Spirit and good things from his Spirit to see us through this present darkness and all the way to the end.
I think if you were able to wash your mind from JW doctrine, then you would be able to reason better and have clarity on such things too. But you have to overcome these beliefs that hinder you.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
