- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2012,21:01) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,18:18) T8, do you believe that psychosis is real?
Do you believe in Voluntary termination of pregnancy?
Well if you mean abortion, then yes.See what I am trying to avoid? No. Okay, I am trying to avoid the connotations that come with what you are saying. Let me explain.
Do I believe that psychosis is real. Yes, if you are willing to understand that such conditions can be caused by demons even today, then yes I believe that there is a term that is used in the medical profession for something that could well be a demon when you dig deeper.
Jesus cast demons out of people that had mental problems. He didn't give them drugs or call it psychosis or any other condition. Was Jesus just ignorant?
Jesus also healed people with medical problems such as the women with an issue of blood. He didn't cast a demon out of her, but did out of the mentally unstable people that called out to him. So was Jesus deluded about demons?
What I am saying david, is that I am with Jesus when it comes to this subject. Would you have told Jesus that casting a demon out was a waste of time because they are psychotic or mentally unstable and not possessed. And what medical term do you give the man who lived in the grave site. Would you say to Jesus that this man needs drugs, not a demon cast out of him.
Your unbelief in demons at work today is on par with Atheists who also believe that.
So, are there cases of psychosis where it is just a mental thing? Or, do you believe that all mental illness or perhaps all extreme mental illness is demons at work?Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2012,21:47) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,18:27) STRAW MAN FALLACY. You are creating an unrelated argument, perhaps with a hint of ad hominin, to help your case.
As I have pointed out to you many times already: none of this in any way has to do with what JW believe. Why would it?
They believe as you do. Do you understand that? Regarding demons, they believe just as you do. So please let go of your false reasoning.
You FALSELY STATE that I believe as the dictation a of a religion.
This idea actually DISPROVES what you say. As I've said already, by all rights I should believe as you do regarding demons today. I have had peer pressure to believe such (as you do). I have been told to believe such. (As you do). Yet, I, more than anyone I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely. I found deception. I found people like you. I found people who create fallacies and lie and do anything they can to support a belief that is so emotional to them, and so close to the core of their beliefs. And so irrational and unprovable.
Your argument, if you think it proves something, now that you again are shown to be wrong, it should prove the opposite. But, will you accept at? No. Blind people sadden me.
david, please rewind the tape.This reaction of yours started when I told you about something I experienced that you denied even though it is specifically forbidden in scripture for some reason which is kind of strange given that it is not suppose to be real.
You doubted my experience and that is fine you are allowed to do that. I might even do that if you had told me that this happened to you and if I had never experienced something like that. But no, you took this further and said I was 100% deluded and that talking to spirits could not be real nor seeing a physical effect from a spirit.
Now you are saying that you know far far far more than anyone and that you are correct. So tell me david. Who is the one who is likely deluded. The one who has an experience of something and has no agenda to push but casually mentions it because the subject was brought up, or the one who thinks he knows far far far more than anyone and based on his far superior knowledge knows that the person who experienced what he did is 100% wrong even though he was not there to say whether it is true or not. Well on the outset, your claim certainly seems dubious to anyone even as mine might to you.
As a side note david, here is some advice. With an argument like that, never become a lawyer. You would be laughed out of the courtroom and the client would want his money back plus damages.
Moving on. In replying to your accusations that I was culturally or contextually confused about the experience, I set out to prove that in fact you were culturally and contextually confused about the subject because as a faithful JW, you would have to believe that there are no gifts of the spirit and that demon activity in my case had to be wrong although I am not sure of the latter point as far as JW doctrine is concerned. I certainly built a case that demonstrated that your belief was based on a doctrine, secondly on an understanding of magic and illusions in general of which you are the self-appointed expert and how dare anyone argue against you.
Now had you said I find that hard to believe or even very hard to believe but it could have been possible, then that would have shown non-bias and clarity from a mind that was not tainted by a preconceived false doctrine.
Instead however, you make the outrageous case that I definitely did not see what I saw, and so you make yourself out to be all knowing in this respect. This was the real problem david. If I told you that I am 100% sure that you are not saved, then what would you think? But if I replied that I think there is a chance that you may not because of this or that, then would that not be a more fairer judgement because I am not making myself out to be all knowing about this and I am not passing final judgment on you either, but am simply giving you perhaps some good reasons as to why this may be possible.
Now let's go back to your comment, “I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone”.
This sounds very familiar to me.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Can you see the similarity.
david, no amount of self promotion and shouting about how you are the expert of experts is going to change a person who has experienced something first hand and is sure of what he experienced. Likewise, no amount of scientific data or Atheistic reasoning is going to sway me away from belief in God. And why is that? because I have experienced God and even if I gave the Atheist argument a 10% chance of being true, then I would still be a fool to give up on God after experiencing him would I not? And the fact that these experiences cannot be compared to anything the world offers means that all the more I would be a fool to believe the self appointed expert Atheist to deny an experience that was the best thing I have experienced ever.
I have my testimony david. And although it may not be proof to you, it is proof to me because I was there. I have experienced many things that prove to me that God is real and there is a spiritual realm and that there is spiritual wickedness in high places. I have seen and experienced many such things first hand, so they are proof to me. You can argue all you like and the Atheist can argue all he likes, but I have my testimony which is far greater than any argument you can conceive.
Could you imagine how foolish a man would be to deny his own testimony and experience because a self-appointed expert told him he must deny it.
Fascinating.You created a straw man fallacy within a post about straw man fallacies.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,22:07) Quote How many cases have you PERSONALLY reviewed, David? Compare that minuscule number to how many cases are out there across the world. Such as? I am fine with starting with kerwins suggestions.
Well, the case of the Ouija Board knowing how much change I had in my pocket hasn't been well documented across the world.In that case, you've made the suggestion that maybe I subconsciously knew how much change I had in my pocket.
Do you suppose that YOU subconsciously know how much loose change is in YOUR pocket right now? Perhaps………. but WHAT do you suppose PRODDED my subconscious to transfer that information to my conscious just in time for me to forcibly and knowingly move the triangle to the right answer?
My point is that you have never studied MY case. And I'm sure there are BILLIONS of them just like mine out there.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2012,21:47) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,18:27) STRAW MAN FALLACY. You are creating an unrelated argument, perhaps with a hint of ad hominin, to help your case.
As I have pointed out to you many times already: none of this in any way has to do with what JW believe. Why would it?
They believe as you do. Do you understand that? Regarding demons, they believe just as you do. So please let go of your false reasoning.
You FALSELY STATE that I believe as the dictation a of a religion.
This idea actually DISPROVES what you say. As I've said already, by all rights I should believe as you do regarding demons today. I have had peer pressure to believe such (as you do). I have been told to believe such. (As you do). Yet, I, more than anyone I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely. I found deception. I found people like you. I found people who create fallacies and lie and do anything they can to support a belief that is so emotional to them, and so close to the core of their beliefs. And so irrational and unprovable.
Your argument, if you think it proves something, now that you again are shown to be wrong, it should prove the opposite. But, will you accept at? No. Blind people sadden me.
david, please rewind the tape.This reaction of yours started when I told you about something I experienced that you denied even though it is specifically forbidden in scripture for some reason which is kind of strange given that it is not suppose to be real.
You doubted my experience and that is fine you are allowed to do that. I might even do that if you had told me that this happened to you and if I had never experienced something like that. But no, you took this further and said I was 100% deluded and that talking to spirits could not be real nor seeing a physical effect from a spirit.
Now you are saying that you know far far far more than anyone and that you are correct. So tell me david. Who is the one who is likely deluded. The one who has an experience of something and has no agenda to push but casually mentions it because the subject was brought up, or the one who thinks he knows far far far more than anyone and based on his far superior knowledge knows that the person who experienced what he did is 100% wrong even though he was not there to say whether it is true or not. Well on the outset, your claim certainly seems dubious to anyone even as mine might to you.
As a side note david, here is some advice. With an argument like that, never become a lawyer. You would be laughed out of the courtroom and the client would want his money back plus damages.
Moving on. In replying to your accusations that I was culturally or contextually confused about the experience, I set out to prove that in fact you were culturally and contextually confused about the subject because as a faithful JW, you would have to believe that there are no gifts of the spirit and that demon activity in my case had to be wrong although I am not sure of the latter point as far as JW doctrine is concerned. I certainly built a case that demonstrated that your belief was based on a doctrine, secondly on an understanding of magic and illusions in general of which you are the self-appointed expert and how dare anyone argue against you.
Now had you said I find that hard to believe or even very hard to believe but it could have been possible, then that would have shown non-bias and clarity from a mind that was not tainted by a preconceived false doctrine.
Instead however, you make the outrageous case that I definitely did not see what I saw, and so you make yourself out to be all knowing in this respect. This was the real problem david. If I told you that I am 100% sure that you are not saved, then what would you think? But if I replied that I think there is a chance that you may not because of this or that, then would that not be a more fairer judgement because I am not making myself out to be all knowing about this and I am not passing final judgment on you either, but am simply giving you perhaps some good reasons as to why this may be possible.
Now let's go back to your comment, “I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone”.
This sounds very familiar to me.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Can you see the similarity.
david, no amount of self promotion and shouting about how you are the expert of experts is going to change a person who has experienced something first hand and is sure of what he experienced. Likewise, no amount of scientific data or Atheistic reasoning is going to sway me away from belief in God. And why is that? because I have experienced God and even if I gave the Atheist argument a 10% chance of being true, then I would still be a fool to give up on God after experiencing him would I not? And the fact that these experiences cannot be compared to anything the world offers means that all the more I would be a fool to believe the self appointed expert Atheist to deny an experience that was the best thing I have experienced ever.
I have my testimony david. And although it may not be proof to you, it is proof to me because I was there. I have experienced many things that prove to me that God is real and there is a spiritual realm and that there is spiritual wickedness in high places. I have seen and experienced many such things first hand, so they are proof to me. You can argue all you like and the Atheist can argue all he likes, but I have my testimony which is far greater than any argument you can conceive.
Could you imagine how foolish a man would be to deny his own testimony and experience because a self-appointed expert told him he must deny it.
T8, not sure what you are going on a output, but you don't seem to want to address the fact that you were wrong about you claiming I have a bias against belief in demon activity (psychics, ouija boards) because of JW beliefs.When I point out you are clearly wrong, because they believe as you do, you ignore your obvious error, which now actually disproves what you wanted to believe regarding me, but are now starting other straw man fallacies, or perhaps red hearings.
You make it seem like I think I'm smart. A wise person knows that they can't trust their brain fully. You seem to be confident that you aren't victim to Imperfect perception or deception. I of course WASNT there. What I do I ow is that I have gone through countless cases where the person was confident in something, only to be deceived by simple things. I, as much as you, want magic to be real, for a host of reasons.
I was doctrines against what I believe. I was trained to believe counter to what I believe.
I wanted to believe. Searched out such things from a very young age. It is my hobby. I enjoy it. It's what I do every day. Every day that I've been on here for the past ten years, I have been spending equal time looking into and stupefying the things we are discussing. That doesn't mean I am incapable of being wrong. It means I am less likely to be wrong and can rather quickly cut through most deceptions, having studied them from many angles.
T8, you are far wiser than I am. I do not think I am a genius. Far from it. I do however think that careful thought and a study of the mind and thinking and motiva
tion. And how deception works is required when looking at areas where deception has generally been applied.t8, you are definitely lying to yourself if you have told yourself you have no agenda in protecting your belief about what you believe happened with the ouija board. You have a great deal to lose, and far more than I. You were an atheist. This experience gave you permission to believe. It is somewhere near the core of your belief. I know you can't admit that and believe at everything you believe is based on logic–everyone believes this.
What I do agree to is that YOU don't want to explore your experience. I think you want to protect it and not change what you believe. I however actually like exploring and studying these things. I do not want to take this belief away from you, but I of course having studies how ouija boards work, and knowing how people can deceive themselves with such things, can't just accept what you say happened.
The lawyer thing?
Lets look at what you were saying: that I was indoctrinated into believing that demons aren't responsible, as if this was the cause of my belief. You are of course wrong. Actually, backwards. And, being that I was taught the opposite of what you state, it was all the harder for me to recognize these things. What you brought up if anything is an argument that shows that it was hard for me to believe this, not easy or indoctrination.My belief isn't based on a doctrine. Either way, it wouldn't change reality. If you remember I left .001% possibility that you are right. I base this on a lot of things. Looking at thousands of people that believed just as you but were flat out wrong for one.
I am unbiased, but for half of my life was strongly looking for what you believe exists. I am unbiased but realize that such claims require actual proof. Anecdotes aren't proof given people's problems with memory attribution and 100 other things.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2012,21:47) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,18:27) STRAW MAN FALLACY. You are creating an unrelated argument, perhaps with a hint of ad hominin, to help your case.
As I have pointed out to you many times already: none of this in any way has to do with what JW believe. Why would it?
They believe as you do. Do you understand that? Regarding demons, they believe just as you do. So please let go of your false reasoning.
You FALSELY STATE that I believe as the dictation a of a religion.
This idea actually DISPROVES what you say. As I've said already, by all rights I should believe as you do regarding demons today. I have had peer pressure to believe such (as you do). I have been told to believe such. (As you do). Yet, I, more than anyone I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely. I found deception. I found people like you. I found people who create fallacies and lie and do anything they can to support a belief that is so emotional to them, and so close to the core of their beliefs. And so irrational and unprovable.
Your argument, if you think it proves something, now that you again are shown to be wrong, it should prove the opposite. But, will you accept at? No. Blind people sadden me.
david, please rewind the tape.This reaction of yours started when I told you about something I experienced that you denied even though it is specifically forbidden in scripture for some reason which is kind of strange given that it is not suppose to be real.
You doubted my experience and that is fine you are allowed to do that. I might even do that if you had told me that this happened to you and if I had never experienced something like that. But no, you took this further and said I was 100% deluded and that talking to spirits could not be real nor seeing a physical effect from a spirit.
Now you are saying that you know far far far more than anyone and that you are correct. So tell me david. Who is the one who is likely deluded. The one who has an experience of something and has no agenda to push but casually mentions it because the subject was brought up, or the one who thinks he knows far far far more than anyone and based on his far superior knowledge knows that the person who experienced what he did is 100% wrong even though he was not there to say whether it is true or not. Well on the outset, your claim certainly seems dubious to anyone even as mine might to you.
As a side note david, here is some advice. With an argument like that, never become a lawyer. You would be laughed out of the courtroom and the client would want his money back plus damages.
Moving on. In replying to your accusations that I was culturally or contextually confused about the experience, I set out to prove that in fact you were culturally and contextually confused about the subject because as a faithful JW, you would have to believe that there are no gifts of the spirit and that demon activity in my case had to be wrong although I am not sure of the latter point as far as JW doctrine is concerned. I certainly built a case that demonstrated that your belief was based on a doctrine, secondly on an understanding of magic and illusions in general of which you are the self-appointed expert and how dare anyone argue against you.
Now had you said I find that hard to believe or even very hard to believe but it could have been possible, then that would have shown non-bias and clarity from a mind that was not tainted by a preconceived false doctrine.
Instead however, you make the outrageous case that I definitely did not see what I saw, and so you make yourself out to be all knowing in this respect. This was the real problem david. If I told you that I am 100% sure that you are not saved, then what would you think? But if I replied that I think there is a chance that you may not because of this or that, then would that not be a more fairer judgement because I am not making myself out to be all knowing about this and I am not passing final judgment on you either, but am simply giving you perhaps some good reasons as to why this may be possible.
Now let's go back to your comment, “I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone”.
This sounds very familiar to me.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Can you see the similarity.
david, no amount of self promotion and shouting about how you are the expert of experts is going to change a person who has experienced something first hand and is sure of what he experienced. Likewise, no amount of scientific data or Atheistic reasoning is going to sway me away from belief in God. And why is that? because I have experienced God and even if I gave the Atheist argument a 10% chance of being true, then I would still be a fool to give up on God after experiencing him would I not? And the fact that these experiences cannot be compared to anything the world offers means that all the more I would be a fool to believe the self appointed expert Atheist to deny an experience that was the best thing I have experienced ever.
I have my testimony david. And although it may not be proof to you, it is proof to me because I was there. I have experienced many things that prove to me that God is real and there is a spiritual realm and that there is spiritual wickedness in high places. I have seen and experienced many such things first hand, so they are proof to me. You can argue all you like and the Atheist can argue all he likes, but I have my testimony which is far greater than any argument you can conceive.
Could you imagine how foolish a man would be to deny his own testimony and experience because a self-appointed expert told him he must deny it.
t8, you can't be serious?This is what I said in full context:
“Yet, I, more than anyone I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely. I found deception. I found people like you.”
But you made it seem like I was saying I know far more than anyone else.
I was saying: FAR MORE THAN ANYONE I KNOW.
I wasn't saying: I know….
Ok, your fallacious arguments are beginning to smell.
This is just outright self deception on your part:
YOU. SAW. WHAT. YOU. WANTED. TO SEE. IN. MY WORDS.
sometimes, t8, YOU SEE WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE, rather than reality.
Do you see the connection to your experience?
How can you trust yourself?
“Now let's go back to your comment, “I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone”.”–t8.
I'm actually impressed by this. At first, I couldn't believe I would say anything like that. You would be good at editing magic tricks.
I WANT EVERYONE HERE TO BE DISGUSTED BY WHAT I APPARENTLY SAID. Now, read what I said:
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,18:09) Why does he have to sit 2 feet in front of the backdrop? 
David, you are definitely sharp when it comes to figuring out how other people's illusions are done.
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,15:27) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,11:32) Further, the real reason you take the view you do is because you believe by reason of the dictations of your denomination that these things have ceased. And why do you think that? Because it is written that when the perfect comes these things will cease. So let's get real here. Your whole argument here stands on one interpretation of one scripture and all of us here know that interpretation is wrong. These things have not ceased. They will cease when Jesus returns because there will be no more need for them especially when the enemy is cast into his prison.
And on that subject, Jesus returned in 1914 according to you if you believe all the dictations of the JWs. Yet we know that if someone say he is here or there, then do not believe him.
These are the real issues as to why you believe what you do. No amount of psychological reasoning is going to make up for a bad interpretation of one scripture and a false prediction as to the coming of Christ. Perhaps psychologically speaking you try to come across as intelligent and understanding of the mind of man to make up for these obvious foolish things. A sort of cover up.
STRAW MAN FALLACY.You are creating an unrelated argument, perhaps with a hint of ad hominin, to help your case.
As I have pointed out to you many times already: none of this in any way has to do with what JW believe. Why would it?
They believe as you do. Do you understand that? Regarding demons, they believe just as you do. So please let go of your false reasoning.
You FALSELY STATE that I believe as the dictation a of a religion.
This idea actually DISPROVES what you say. As I've said already, by all rights I should believe as you do regarding demons today. I have had peer pressure to believe such (as you do). I have been told to believe such. (As you do). Yet, I, more than anyone I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely. I found deception. I found people like you. I found people who create fallacies and lie and do anything they can to support a belief that is so emotional to them, and so close to the core of their beliefs. And so irrational and unprovable.
Your argument, if you think it proves something, now that you again are shown to be wrong, it should prove the opposite. But, will you accept at? No. Blind people sadden me.
Here it is in context.My point, as everyone else will grasp is that I know I studied these things far more than anyone I know.
I AM NOT IN ANY WAY SAYING WHAT YOU CLAIM I AM.
But it was a brilliant piece of self deception if you made yourself believe that is what I said.
The mind is an amazing thing, that we can not trust always.
You either:
1. Deceived yourself accidentally because you wanted to believe I said this.
2. Purposely tried to deceive others to make me out to be self important.I went back and bolded the words that you quoted. Notice the EXTREME difference in meaning.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2012,12:15) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,18:09) Why does he have to sit 2 feet in front of the backdrop? David, you are definitely sharp when it comes to figuring out how other people's illusions are done.
It's because I've seen this trick about 500 times. Why would I be fooled by it?A person who just watches it once may well think they saw a miracle or demonic magic. They may well say: “you don't know, you can't be sure.” In this case, I absolutely can be sure. Absolutely positively unequivocally.
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,19:02) t8, you are definitely lying to yourself if you have told yourself you have no agenda in protecting your belief about what you believe happened with the ouija board. You have a great deal to lose, and far more than I. You were an atheist. This experience gave you permission to believe. It is somewhere near the core of your belief. I know you can't admit that and believe at everything you believe is based on logic–everyone believes this.
David,You are going too far in your above accusations. I support t8's answer to those accusations:
Could you imagine how foolish a man would be to deny his own testimony and experience because a self-appointed expert told him he must deny it.
You have neither a clue about what happened to t8, nor the right to accuse him of lying about it. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Quote “Now let's go back to your comment, “I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone”. This sounds very familiar to me.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Can you see the similarity.
david, no amount of self promotion and shouting about how you are the expert of experts is going to change a person who has experienced something first hand and is sure of what he experienced. Likewise, no amount of scientific data or Atheistic reasoning is going to sway me away from belief in God. And why is that? because I have experienced God and even if I gave the Atheist argument a 10% chance of being true, then I would still be a fool to give up on God after experiencing him would I not? And the fact that these experiences cannot be compared to anything the world offers means that all the more I would be a fool to believe the self appointed expert Atheist to deny an experience that was the best thing I have experienced ever. “
–T8
t8, I know I have made several posts on this, but I find it fascinating.
What inside your brain made you see what you wanted to see?
What inside your brain made you see something THAT WASNT REALLY THERE?
What inside your brain DECEIVED itself?I believe that we are all capable of miscalculating how great our brains work. We are imperfect. We are easily deceived by ourselves and others. That's why, IT'S SO INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO EXAMINE THE ACTUAL EVIDENCE rather than just accept what we THINK we saw.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2012,12:25) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,19:02) t8, you are definitely lying to yourself if you have told yourself you have no agenda in protecting your belief about what you believe happened with the ouija board. You have a great deal to lose, and far more than I. You were an atheist. This experience gave you permission to believe. It is somewhere near the core of your belief. I know you can't admit that and believe at everything you believe is based on logic–everyone believes this.
David,You are going too far in your above accusations. I support t8's answer to those accusations:
Could you imagine how foolish a man would be to deny his own testimony and experience because a self-appointed expert told him he must deny it.
You have neither a clue about what happened to t8, nor the right to accuse him of lying about it. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Just a minute ago, T8 thought he saw something he didn't see.It was an obvious case of seeing what he wanted to see.
Mike, do you believe at this belief of t8 (and yourself) would mean nothing if proven wrong? It would mean a great deal, wouldn't it? Therefore, there is an agenda, or at least, a great deal to lose. Am I wrong? If so, how?
MIKE, I never ever ever ever ever ever ver ever ever ever accused him of lying about it. Perhaps if you re-read this thread you will see that I repeatedly point out how easily people deceive themselves. I don't think he is lying at all about what he thinks happened. Do I? No.
So, you should be ashamed of yourself for creating this false impression of me.
Over and over again in this thread, wrong things are being said about me in order to make yourselves feel better about your beliefs. Repeatedly, despite correction, I have said I wasn't indoctrinated into believing this, quite the opposite.
My comment to t8 was about lying to himself (self deception) about his agenda, NOT ABOUT what he think happened.
Another false impression given by you.
Why do this? It is bad Mike. It is bad.
Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,06:00) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 27 2012,17:37) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,12:25) TERRAICA, could you please answer the question that I asked in the post you quoted? The question I made bold.
DI call that interventions by angels ,for reasons ?
And if an intervention would be or can be defined as a miracle then I guess it would be a miracle,But I have notice that God does not save someone for that person himself ,sometime yes but their could be other factors ,
Terrarica, so you believe in these cases, God is I terse ing in human affairs, and causing angels to lead witnesses to people who are calling for help through prayer?
dby witnesess you imply JW ? if yes then I say that they the are not the only ones with those sort of experiences
i do believe others also ,I have read other religion denomination have their own experiences ,
your conclusion is wrong ;like i say WHAT WAS THE TRUE PURPOSE OF THE EVENT ???ONLY GOD KNOWS ,
IT IS GOD THAT SAVES NOT MEN ,
Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,19:40) So, you should be ashamed of yourself for creating this false mores sign of me. My comment to t8 was about “lying to himself”………
Isn't that just semantics, David? If you accuse someone of “lying TO THEMSELVES”, aren't you still accusing them of lying? I thought so – maybe I'm wrong.Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,19:40) Mike, do you believe at this belief of t8 (and yourself) would mean nothing if proven wrong? It would mean a great deal, wouldn't it? Therefore, there is an agenda, or at least, a great deal to lose. Am I wrong? If so, how?
My experience had nothing at all to do with me believing in God, or being drawn to Him. I didn't come to accept God in my life until 30 years later. Where is my agenda? What do I have to lose?Also, when will you address my recent post about the Ouija Board and the change in my pocket?
Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,12:40) Just a minute ago, T8 thought he saw something he didn't see.
Hi David,T8 was cracking a joke when he said:
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,16:56) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,19:05) What does AWHN mean.
I'm guessing that HN means Heaven Net.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 28 2012,13:25) Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,12:40) Just a minute ago, T8 thought he saw something he didn't see.
Hi David,T8 was cracking a joke when he said:
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,16:56) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,19:05) What does AWHN mean.
I'm guessing that HN means Heaven Net.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
He is good at finding patterns and making connections. I merely point out that many people find false. Patterns and it happens frequently.Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,15:31) UNANSWERED: Posted: Nov. 26 2012,02:29
CONSIDER THIS:Hundreds of times I have read articles where a person is praying for help, perhaps in tears, looking for God, and then, guess who knocks on the door?
This is understood to be somewhat miraculous, a proof that God is at work, guiding them to honest hearted ones, who are seeking out truth.
What are the chances that a person would be praying, and then that moment, a person with Bible in hand would appear at their very door? It is miraculous, right. It is proof that God was guiding them to that door, right?
There are hundreds or perhaps thousands of these experiences. Sometimes the person is suicidal, given up on life, seeking meaning. Seeking a reason. Seeking anything. Seeking an answer. Seeking God. Praying, begging, desperately hoping for help, (for social contact to fill the emotional void in their life.)
And then the door bell rings. The person makes a connection in their mind. Is this a coincidence? How could it be? I was asking for this. I was pleading for this. And the door bell rang, with this lovely lady who read comforting scriptures to me. It was a sign from God. How else could it be taken. It is the strongest, the very strongest of evidence FOR THAT PERSON, and given that feeling, that miracle, do we think they will look for confirmation bias to back up their anecdotal experience, their miracle, the meaning that has now been brought to their life? Yes. They probably will.
t8, are these miracles?
or, is it a misunderstanding of math, statistics, and the human mind and its willingness to see meaning where there is none? (2 million witnesses going out on a Saturday means they should run into thousands that have either just been praying or are presently praying.).
Hits–remember
Misses–forget
You have to ALWAYS look at the whole.t8, a couple in service were about to quite, but one of them had a feeling: “lets do just one more bouse.” When they found jack in tears praying, about to kill himself, was it a miracle? Jack thought so.
What do you think?
————–
“Let no man deceive you with empty words….”–Eph 5:6WHAT DO OTHERS THINK? Mike? what do you think? Are these miracles?
IF NOT. WHY?
Mike,Could you comment on this? I will go back and find the comments I posted to you on the change in your pocket.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 25 2012,19:59) Quote (david @ Nov. 25 2012,20:40) t8, I believe it is mostly a matter of perception. I'm also certain that if it was measured, it would be found that you have significantly more dopamine in your brain.
So what. Even if I did, it would still prove nothing except that I would be at lesser risk of Parkinson's disease.If I was deeply in love then you might measure more endorphins which resemble opiates in their abilities to produce analgesia and a feeling of well-being.
Does that mean that endorphins are soley responsible for any love that I have or are they actually the product of love.
An Atheist or carnal minded person usually says that these shape your reality. But love as we know in scripture is not all about a shower of endorphins.
Things like love come from the unseen to the seen. Love is not solely a chemical reaction of some kind even if it has that effect on your body.
I bet any emotion whether it is fear, love, hate, excitement, elevate certain chemicals in your brain. So what. Doesn't prove that the origin of these things are in your brain.
I find your conclusions to be carnal david.
If we give people anti dopamine drugs, they are much less likely to make false positives.People with higher levels of dopamine tend to find more patterns (both real ones and false ones). These people are generally more creative.
Too much dopamine though and the person becomes delusional. They are constantly finding patterns where there are none. They find meaning where there is none. (Paranoi for example)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2012,13:20) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,19:40) So, you should be ashamed of yourself for creating this false mores sign of me. My comment to t8 was about “lying to himself”………
Isn't that just semantics, David? If you accuse someone of “lying TO THEMSELVES”, aren't you still accusing them of lying? I thought so – maybe I'm wrong.Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,19:40) Mike, do you believe at this belief of t8 (and yourself) would mean nothing if proven wrong? It would mean a great deal, wouldn't it? Therefore, there is an agenda, or at least, a great deal to lose. Am I wrong? If so, how?
My experience had nothing at all to do with me believing in God, or being drawn to Him. I didn't come to accept God in my life until 30 years later. Where is my agenda? What do I have to lose?Also, when will you address my recent post about the Ouija Board and the change in my pocket?
When will I address it? In the past, on Page 23, under post called “mikes miracles”
Also, you responded on page 24.We could discuss it further if you like.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2012,12:25) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,19:02) t8, you are definitely lying to yourself if you have told yourself you have no agenda in protecting your belief about what you believe happened with the ouija board. You have a great deal to lose, and far more than I. You were an atheist. This experience gave you permission to believe. It is somewhere near the core of your belief. I know you can't admit that and believe at everything you believe is based on logic–everyone believes this.
David,You are going too far in your above accusations. I support t8's answer to those accusations:
Could you imagine how foolish a man would be to deny his own testimony and experience because a self-appointed expert told him he must deny it.
You have neither a clue about what happened to t8, nor the right to accuse him of lying about it. You should be ashamed of yourself.
MIKE. Here you make the claim that I am accusing T8 of lying “about what happened to T8.”The problem is: I did not do that, at all!!!!!
What you suggest is very different from what I actually said.
I said he was “lying to himself” (self deception) if he is making himself believe he has nothing to gain by protecting his belief. It's as if he is saying he couldn't care one way or the other. That simply isn't true–if someone has recorded the event and this came to light and t8 was clearly shown that he was wrong, it would certainly be meaningful to him, wouldn't it? Similarly, if the video tape clearly showed that he was right, this too would be meaningful. When a person has beliefs that are meaningful, how can there be no agenda?
Answer me that.
And again, if anyone should be ashamed, it should be you for so badly misrepresenting what I actually said.
When someone misquotes someone so badly, I tend to lose some respect for them as being an honest person with them self.
Do you see how this is true of how T8 quoted me?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
