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Quote Please move on. As I said before, the wise thing to do is to look at scripture because this is a case of having to be there and my word which I know is proof to no one. And I don't care anyway. It is of no advantage that you believe me or not. But you want me to believe you. And more importantly, you want you to keep believing you. And you want everyone listening to believe you. I am willing to discuss this for the next year, so that we can make sure of all things. You do not want to discuss it. How long ago was this. Would it be weird if I emailed your friend, and, without you intervening.
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I mean from some of the symptoms you read about these mentally unstable people they often say they heard voices telling them to do it.And you would even deny that this was demonic too I guess
Surely you have heard of psychosis or schizophrenia?
T8, just as you ask me, now i ask you: do you believe that psychosis is real? (If there is a person that hears a voice coming from their stomach and it tells them to burn things, how do we determine whether it is psychosis, or a demon?)
For me, if you live in a place like Canada, and you hear hoofs hitting the ground, you think “horses,” and not “zebras.”
Quote I can't help your unbelief here david because you actually believe in the unbelief interpretation and boil it solely down to chemical reactions. If you are referring to me saying you have an excess of dopamine in your brain, a simple test would be to just take anti-dopamine drugs, and if you start noticing the meaningful patterns going away (what I would call false positives) or what you would call miracles, then we know it was the extra dopamine in your brain. If nothing changes, my theory is wrong.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,11:18) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,13:53) “Interesting thing about experiences is that people often frame them into their cultural experience.”–t8 Agreed.
The cultural experience I am using is the biblical understanding of these things. You are using a non-biblical one. This is the point. I too could use a non-biblical understanding if I didn't believe the biblical interpretation of such things. But I have faith in God and scripture and so obviously I choose that because I believe it is true.
I really want to study Elizabeth knapp if I have a week or two of free time. What I do know about her and what I suspect of the vast majority of demon possession cases is that they occur in people that have a cultural bias towards such things. She was a Puritan. If something she doesn't understand happens to her, the people around her will of course have a great tendency to frame it with the cultural experience she grew up in. “Be afraid of the devil” was no doubt burnt into her brain. Do groups that don't believe in demon possession find them self possessed?mcgurk effect.
Any one who has ever enjoyed a visual optical illusion where their eyes deceive them, will really really enjoy and be thoroughly angered by this most bizarre auditory / visual effect.
Your eyes are about to lie to your ears, and your brain will believe your eyes over what you are actually hearing. It's a very bizarre experience. This effect still works on those who have studied it for decades.
It seems visual cues are far more important than auditory.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,11:04) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,11:18) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,13:53) “Interesting thing about experiences is that people often frame them into their cultural experience.”–t8 Agreed.
The cultural experience I am using is the biblical understanding of these things. You are using a non-biblical one. This is the point. I too could use a non-biblical understanding if I didn't believe the biblical interpretation of such things. But I have faith in God and scripture and so obviously I choose that because I believe it is true.
I really want to study Elizabeth knapp if I have a week or two of free time. What I do know about her and what I suspect of the vast majority of demon possession cases is that they occur in people that have a cultural bias towards such things. She was a Puritan. If something she doesn't understand happens to her, the people around her will of course have a great tendency to frame it with the cultural experience she grew up in. “Be afraid of the devil” was no doubt burnt into her brain. Do groups that don't believe in demon possession find them self possessed?
DDEMONS ARE LIKELY TO PICK AND CHOSE THEIR PERSON,
LK 8:29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had seized him many times; and he was bound with chains and shackles and kept under guard, and yet he would break his bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert.
LK 9:42 While he was still approaching, the demon slammed him to the ground and threw him into a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the boy and gave him back to his father.JN 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
do you think because of what they were saying are they posessed by a demon
Lk 11:23 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.
Lk 11:24 “When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’
Lk 11:25 When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order.
Lk 11:26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.”
Lk 11:27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”the problem lays with men ,but men does not want to see it ,the solution his given but no one wanted ,
so they rather discuss it for century's than solve it
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,11:04) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,11:18) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,13:53) “Interesting thing about experiences is that people often frame them into their cultural experience.”–t8 Agreed.
The cultural experience I am using is the biblical understanding of these things. You are using a non-biblical one. This is the point. I too could use a non-biblical understanding if I didn't believe the biblical interpretation of such things. But I have faith in God and scripture and so obviously I choose that because I believe it is true.
I really want to study Elizabeth knapp if I have a week or two of free time. What I do know about her and what I suspect of the vast majority of demon possession cases is that they occur in people that have a cultural bias towards such things. She was a Puritan. If something she doesn't understand happens to her, the people around her will of course have a great tendency to frame it with the cultural experience she grew up in. “Be afraid of the devil” was no doubt burnt into her brain. Do groups that don't believe in demon possession find them self possessed?
David,Demons are invisible and so all you have is symptoms to diagnose by. A people who did not believe in demons would not reach as diagnosis of demon possession.
I am curious how they explain the use of foreign languages, such as occurred in a more recent case documented by Dr. Richard E. Gallagher, a psychiatrist. Witnesses testify the possessed woman also spoke with a male-like voice and levitated. Both she, a Roman Catholic, and the doctor believe in demon possession.
To all,
Here is what I have found out about the case of Julia. I spoke of this case to David in my last post to him.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,18:48) Quote Please move on. As I said before, the wise thing to do is to look at scripture because this is a case of having to be there and my word which I know is proof to no one. And I don't care anyway. It is of no advantage that you believe me or not. But you want me to believe you. And more importantly, you want you to keep believing you. And you want everyone listening to believe you. I am willing to discuss this for the next year, so that we can make sure of all things. You do not want to discuss it. How long ago was this. Would it be weird if I emailed your friend, and, without you intervening.
Actually no I don't care. I casually mentioned this and you were the one who got all excited about it and made a big deal out of it.I would prefer that you believe what the scriptures say regarding evil spirits or demons and this is where the discussion should go because my word against yours is not going to go anywhere. And I am fully aware that my testimony here is proof to no one.
So let's discuss the scriptures regarding such things because that is really the only thing that we can both relate to.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,18:55) Surely you have heard of psychosis or schizophrenia? T8, just as you ask me, now i ask you: do you believe that psychosis is real? (If there is a person that hears a voice coming from their stomach and it tells them to burn things, how do we determine whether it is psychosis, or a demon?)
For me, if you live in a place like Canada, and you hear hoofs hitting the ground, you think “horses,” and not “zebras.”
Surely you have heard of demonic possession?And knowing this is true and even demonstrated in scripture, the world even acknowledges such things. However, because the cause is invisible, they can only see the symptom and as such give these things names to identify them and drugs to suppress them rather than cure them.
You are more aligned with the world than Jesus when it comes to this subject. That is a true saying david. You do not believe all that Jesus said. Whereas for me and others, Jesus is the truth and the Lord of our lives. He talked about demons and cast them out.
You need to submit to Jesus Christ as Lord in your life in order to have the Father who is God over all.
Quote (david @ Nov. 25 2012,09:38) I “independently” invented something that someone invented in the 1950's. was quite upset when I realized it had been done.
Bummer, man.
Quote (david @ Nov. 25 2012,09:46) And again, I'm not ruling out all supernatural (spiritistic) activity–Just anything that has happened in the last century or on TV ever.
I tend to agree with you about the TV thing – although I don't KNOW it to be true.But why rule out ANYTHING that has happened in the last century, when your personal experience and research couldn't possibly even touch the very tip of the iceberg?
How many cases have you PERSONALLY reviewed, David? Compare that minuscule number to how many cases are out there across the world.
Quote (david @ Nov. 25 2012,09:59) No, there is a scripture that speaks of the gifts of the spirit being “done away with” and ceasing.
What scripture are you talking about?1 Corinthians 13
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,18:22) 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
Thanks t8,When did “completeness/perfection” come?
Supposedly when the believers got their act together or something like that. The first century I think.
Then they believed that Jesus returned in 1914, of course I wasn't around, but I doubt that this is the Millennial reign.So all the gifts, casting out demons, etc, is all demonic now.
Looks the same, smells the same, but changed from godly to the realm of demons in one swoop.The biggest concern I have with this view is that the gifts are from the Holy Spirit. So to call that demonic is certainly blasphemy. Insulting Jesus is not as serious as insulting God and his Spirit.
This teaching is very dangerous for this reason.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,19:44) The biggest concern I have with this view is that the gifts are from the Holy Spirit.
I agree. To say that nothing supernatural happens in this day and age is to say that the Holy Spirit no longer works among God's children.Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2012,09:26) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,18:55) Surely you have heard of psychosis or schizophrenia? T8, just as you ask me, now i ask you: do you believe that psychosis is real? (If there is a person that hears a voice coming from their stomach and it tells them to burn things, how do we determine whether it is psychosis, or a demon?)
For me, if you live in a place like Canada, and you hear hoofs hitting the ground, you think “horses,” and not “zebras.”
Surely you have heard of demonic possession?And knowing this is true and even demonstrated in scripture, the world even acknowledges such things. However, because the cause is invisible, they can only see the symptom and as such give these things names to identify them and drugs to suppress them rather than cure them.
You are more aligned with the world than Jesus when it comes to this subject. That is a true saying david. You do not believe all that Jesus said. Whereas for me and others, Jesus is the truth and the Lord of our lives. He talked about demons and cast them out.
You need to submit to Jesus Christ as Lord in your life in order to have the Father who is God over all.
t8, you said I don't believe all that Jesus said (with regard to demons).You didn't specify.
Also, why did you ignore the question I put in bold?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2012,09:20) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,18:48) Quote Please move on. As I said before, the wise thing to do is to look at scripture because this is a case of having to be there and my word which I know is proof to no one. And I don't care anyway. It is of no advantage that you believe me or not. But you want me to believe you. And more importantly, you want you to keep believing you. And you want everyone listening to believe you. I am willing to discuss this for the next year, so that we can make sure of all things. You do not want to discuss it. How long ago was this. Would it be weird if I emailed your friend, and, without you intervening.
Actually no I don't care. I casually mentioned this and you were the one who got all excited about it and made a big deal out of it.I would prefer that you believe what the scriptures say regarding evil spirits or demons and this is where the discussion should go because my word against yours is not going to go anywhere. And I am fully aware that my testimony here is proof to no one.
So let's discuss the scriptures regarding such things because that is really the only thing that we can both relate to.
t8, think of it this way:You said that a cup levitated (actually suspended) while you and a friend were touching it.
ED said that he is foretold in the bible.
Neither of these are things a person can just shrug their shoulders at a and say: “oh, that's nice.” The more bizarre or grand the claim, the more stringent the examination and questions. I know you do not want to mess with or tamper with your belief regarding this, because it is partially a foundational belief, the feeling you then used to build scripture around as Evidence.
t8, I know everything you know about what scripture says about spiritism or demon possession. What I don't know is what actually happened the day you believe that cup apparently suspended at your friends pinky.
I am fine with studying case by case. I really do want to study knapp and this Julia that kerwin brought up. But, this takes time. Today was busy.
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