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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 25 2012,02:48) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,12:45) We only need one experience that is impossible by human means for me to believe. Just one.
2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won’t torture me!” 8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you evil spirit!”
9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.
11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
There is your one experience, David. Today, you would just describe verses 2-5 as the actions of a very strong, mentally unstable man. But was that really the case?
Mike,See post above to kerwin
I saw a documentary on this. It was quite interesting. They were trying to figure out exactly where this happened, which tombs. Which hill. There were several possible locations. It was quite interesting.
Maybe what you are not getting mike or kerwin is my belief, about gifts of the spirit being done away with. I have discussed this many times in many threads, and even recently. I should have put it together for you.
I don't believe miracles are being some today. I believe they were “done away with” as the need for them has been done away with. They helped establish Christianity and get it off to a start but with the death of the apostles, that has gone away. People still perform signs, but according to every unrighteousness deception. According to fraud.
TODAY, I see neither miracles nor magic. I have looked. I have wanted to see. I have looked in every corner. I want to believe. I made it my life.
TODAY, if there is a person who seems to be possessed by a demon, please bring them to me. I would put them in a very safe place where they can't hurt themself or others. I would begin by studying their history, and seeing if they were severely beaten as a child. Or abused. I would first rule out any natural causes. Doesn't that seem logical?
As the saying goes: “IF YOU HEAR HOOVES HITTING THE GROUND, THINK “horses” AND NOT “zebras”. Because that is most likely what it is.
Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,10:09) I don't believe miracles are being done today. I believe they were “done away with” as the need for them has been done away with. They helped establish Christianity and get it off to a start but with the death of the apostles, that has gone away.
I'm sorry. I was not aware that you believed like that. This is the first I'm hearing of it.That does go a long way toward explaining your stance in this thread.
I don't agree that miracles and communication with demons went away with the death of the apostles. In fact, I don't believe anyone on this thread except for you believes that – which is probably why we've all been butting heads with you on this topic.
You should have told us this in your first post, and saved us all a lot of miscommunication.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 25 2012,03:30) Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,10:09) I don't believe miracles are being done today. I believe they were “done away with” as the need for them has been done away with. They helped establish Christianity and get it off to a start but with the death of the apostles, that has gone away.
I'm sorry. I was not aware that you believed like that. This is the first I'm hearing of it.That does go a long way toward explaining your stance in this thread.
I don't agree that miracles and communication with demons went away with the death of the apostles. In fact, I don't believe anyone on this thread except for you believes that – which is probably why we've all been butting heads with you on this topic.
You should have told us this in your first post, and saved us all a lot of miscommunication.
Mike. See “faith healing” thread, last post. I copied it from a thread on speaking in tongues. It's a conversation that I had with nick about 3 times. It feels like we may have discussed it before as well. The post is about speaking in tongues, but it equally applies to other miraculous gifts.Mike, even if that was not my religious belief, I would still not believe that magic is happening today. I've checked. It's not. Many many many things are at work, some of them very complicated, but none of them that require spirits to be called upon as an explanation.
When you hear hooves, think horses. Not zebras.
Although it may come as a shock to you, David, I haven't read even close to half of the posts you've made on HN.
Just because you discussed something with Nick 6 years ago doesn't mean I was privy to that conversation. Like I said, this is the first I am hearing of your belief that miracles and demon possessions no longer happen. (At least that I remember.)
Btw, if you are camping out overnight in the African plains, and hear hooves, which animal are you going to think of then?
d
Quote Mike, even if that was not my religious belief, I would still not believe that magic is happening today. I've checked. It's not. Many many many things are at work, some of them very complicated, but none of them that require spirits to be called upon as an explanation. it seems to me that even demon are choice in the people that they favored ,to be in I mean ,
I do not think that it is angel but demon that are the communication or that imprison some people ,but why
Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,21:58) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2012,21:09) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,22:57) 1. It sounds like you are attributing the effects of the demons that Jesus and his disciples expelled from various people in scripture to the ignorance of an earlier culture. It seems as if you're saying these people really just had schizophrenia, or some other mental affliction, and that they weren't really possessed by demons. Is this really what you're saying? mike, about 3 or four times on here I have specifically said that that is not what I'm saying.
t8 continually has been suggesting it, and I keep correcting him directly.
I am only discussing events of today. It's really hard for me to make this more clear. I've said it repeatedly.
David,It it how those events are interpreted today versus how they were interpreted in ancient times.
Ancient: King Saul is oppressed by an evil spirit.
Modern: King Saul is bipolar.Ancient: Child has no breath of life and later has breath return: child is resurrected.
Modern: Child was in hibernation.These things do occur today but we in our “wisdom” interpret them differently.
Demon possession is ownership by a demon. Some are handed over to demons because they do not acknowledge Jehovah. These individuals are compelled to perform actions certain experts consider symptoms of mental disease.
If it bears the fruit of a duct then it is likely a duck no matter what labels our culture chooses to place on it.
Kerwins, I am not really speaking here on the things of the past. I can only examine hard evidence today. If someone is acting weird and we give them a drug, then chances are it was that they were depressed, and not demon possessed.I am focusing on today.
David,Look at how Satan oppresses Job.
– He gives Job (a virus?) that causes him to have boils from the sole of his feet to the top of his crown of his head.
– He entices the Sabeans and Chaldeans to attack his servants and livestock.
– He stirs up a great wind(tornado?) that destroys the building Job's children were in.
– He rains fire from heaven (meteor?) and kills the sheep and Job's servants with them.Some demons are tempters and a temptation is to be depressed. Jehovah states he hands certain people over to their sins, which is to say the control of demons. A drug can be used successfully to fight the temptation just like a weapon can be used to battle Sabeans and Chaldeans.
Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,08:56) My problem is, that when it comes to “demons” having power over physical things, it seems to usually be concentrated around people that are mentally disturbed, mentally traumatized, beaten or abused or sexually abused or psychologically abused as a child.
Which one of these conditions was Jesus in?Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,08:45) We only need one experience that is impossible by human means for me to believe. Just one.
It's easy to find thousands that mean nothing.
I have been blessed to have had that many that I couldn't even tell you exactly how many.I had a flatmate many years ago and I told him some of the experiences I had. The ones from God as I rarely ever relay the seance stuff to anyone, except when the subject is brought up perhaps.
Anyway, he wondered why I could have experienced such things while he had not even experienced one impossible or miraculous event in his whole life. So he decided to pray about this and was kind of asking why not him too as it didn't seem very fair. I kept trying to tell him that he was blessed because he had not seen and yet believed and yes I believed but I had seen. So my argument was that in that sense he had a greater faith than myself.
Anyway he still wondered and prayed about it and then he told me that he received a dream and God spoke to him. He told him that I had received these things for a reason and it was for God to know that reason. He also said that he had chosen my friend to learn through the experiences of life.
After that he was satisfied that all was good and that God hadn't left him out. And he was super excited about God talking to him because that had never happened to him before.
Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,07:48) Quote You seem to be teaching us that “magic tricks” aren't really “magic” – but most of us here already accept that. Where you're going wrong is by trying to prove to us that certain encounters with real demons that some of us have had are also just simple “magic tricks” – carried out by our own deluded minds. I often think of this like Bigfoot or flying saucers.
Sure, 99% are faked and imagination, but 1% seem to be unexplained. And just because 99% of Bigfoot sightings are explainable, doesn't mean they don't exist. And then I would say: as someone who has spent their life tracking and looking for Bigfoot, I am pretty sure that 1% is also faked or imagination. I would say: show me any tangible proof.
david, this is more of an argument against the existence of demons than what demons can actually do.Not bragging or anything, but I just made post 12345.
Ed J, how long will it be before I make post 123456?Ten times as much, (one hundred years)
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 25 2012,14:35) Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,08:56) My problem is, that when it comes to “demons” having power over physical things, it seems to usually be concentrated around people that are mentally disturbed, mentally traumatized, beaten or abused or sexually abused or psychologically abused as a child.
Which one of these conditions was Jesus in?
I don't remember Jesus claiming that objects around him were moving or floating around.Quote I had a flatmate many years ago and I told him some of the experiences I had. The ones from God as I rarely ever relay the seance stuff to anyone, except when the subject is brought up perhaps. Anyway, he wondered why I could have experienced such things while he had not even experienced one impossible or miraculous event in his whole life.[\b] So he decided to pray about this and was kind of asking why not him too as it didn't seem very fair. I kept trying to tell him that he was blessed because he had not seen and yet believed and yes I believed but I had seen. So my argument was that in that sense he had a greater faith than myself.
t8, I believe it is mostly a matter of perception. I'm also certain that if it was measured, it would be found that you have significantly more dopamine in your brain.
Quote (david @ Nov. 25 2012,20:30) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 25 2012,14:35) Quote (david @ Nov. 24 2012,08:56) My problem is, that when it comes to “demons” having power over physical things, it seems to usually be concentrated around people that are mentally disturbed, mentally traumatized, beaten or abused or sexually abused or psychologically abused as a child.
Which one of these conditions was Jesus in?
I don't remember Jesus claiming that objects around him were moving or floating around.
Irrelevant argument because you are describing a particular thing that is not likely to be exactly replicated. It is the greater issue of demons and their activity that we are debating.I wore a pair of shorts today, did Jesus. Irrelevant again.
Besides, Jesus was not likely silly enough as I was to even call them up. I think in his case, they showed themselves because they knew he was the son of God.
david you believe that because you are into magic and see how it works and at the same time you have never had an experience/vision from God. So your judgement is completely based on your own very limited experience of reality.
For you to be fair given your own perception, by all rights you should also conclude that John was never taken up and never saw the River of Life. You would have to conclude that Job never experienced the wrath of Satan on his family because you neither believe that these things happen to people like me, mike, or Job.
So you are really just making an argument for unbelief in these things.
It beats me why you even believe anything in scripture as scripture is mainly experiences with God written down for our benefit. But then again, if you are doctrinally convinced that such things have ended, then it is this belief that shapes your perception, meaning for you it is indeed a matter of perception as you say.
For me, God has spoken to me and demonstrated things to me in a powerful way and who am I to deny that which God has graciously given me.
In other words I just accept what God has done for me, while you cannot step over the stumbling block of believing that these things have ended and are not relevant today.
This belief of yours reinforces itself with self-perpetuating evidence in your perception because non-belief means you don't see any sign because you have not faith in the gifts of God.
Likewise an Atheist can make the same argument. He has never experienced God and has no understanding of him and that too is likely perpetuated by his unbelief.
Somewhere along the way, you have to take a step of faith to even open the door. Otherwise if you do not seek, the door will not open either.
Quote (david @ Nov. 25 2012,05:58) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2012,21:09) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,22:57) 1. It sounds like you are attributing the effects of the demons that Jesus and his disciples expelled from various people in scripture to the ignorance of an earlier culture. It seems as if you're saying these people really just had schizophrenia, or some other mental affliction, and that they weren't really possessed by demons. Is this really what you're saying? mike, about 3 or four times on here I have specifically said that that is not what I'm saying.
t8 continually has been suggesting it, and I keep correcting him directly.
I am only discussing events of today. It's really hard for me to make this more clear. I've said it repeatedly.
David,It it how those events are interpreted today versus how they were interpreted in ancient times.
Ancient: King Saul is oppressed by an evil spirit.
Modern: King Saul is bipolar.Ancient: Child has no breath of life and later has breath return: child is resurrected.
Modern: Child was in hibernation.These things do occur today but we in our “wisdom” interpret them differently.
Demon possession is ownership by a demon. Some are handed over to demons because they do not acknowledge Jehovah. These individuals are compelled to perform actions certain experts consider symptoms of mental disease.
If it bears the fruit of a duct then it is likely a duck no matter what labels our culture chooses to place on it.
Kerwins, I am not really speaking here on the things of the past. I can only examine hard evidence today. If someone is acting weird and we give them a drug, then chances are it was that they were depressed, and not demon possessed.I am focusing on today.
david, kerwin made a good point.It seems obvious that your perception in this topic is completely altered by your belief that certain things have ended.
So God ends the gifts and stomps on demon activity so that it no longer exists, and yet the gifts appear to continue after they supposedly were meant to stop, so they are no longer of God, but rather demonic, except that demonic now really means some kind of physical mental affliction.
What did I get wrong if anything from my summary.
Quote (david @ Nov. 25 2012,20:40) t8, I believe it is mostly a matter of perception. I'm also certain that if it was measured, it would be found that you have significantly more dopamine in your brain.
So what. Even if I did, it would still prove nothing except that I would be at lesser risk of Parkinson's disease.If I was deeply in love then you might measure more endorphins which resemble opiates in their abilities to produce analgesia and a feeling of well-being.
Does that mean that endorphins are soley responsible for any love that I have or are they actually the product of love.
An Atheist or carnal minded person usually says that these shape your reality. But love as we know in scripture is not all about a shower of endorphins.
Things like love come from the unseen to the seen. Love is not solely a chemical reaction of some kind even if it has that effect on your body.
I bet any emotion whether it is fear, love, hate, excitement, elevate certain chemicals in your brain. So what. Doesn't prove that the origin of these things are in your brain.
I find your conclusions to be carnal david.
Quote Irrelevant argument because you are describing a particular thing that is not likely to be exactly replicated. It is the greater issue of demons and their activity that we are debating. That may be what you are debating. I have repeatedly said that is not what I am debating. I am only speaking about TODAY and what is reality TODAY. I am discussing the psychic abilities of today. The “magic” of today. I am looking at what people believe or falsely believe to be demon activity today.
Quote david you believe that because you are into magic and see how it works and at the same time you have never had an experience/vision from God. So your judgement is completely based on your own very limited experience of reality. Not exactly true. I truly believe, understand, believe with my very core, that anecdotal evidence (although considered the strongest form of evidence by the one who is involved) is the very weakest form of evidence we have. It's not even really evidence. I also understand how deception or self deception work with regard to such things.
Quote For you to be fair given your own perception, by all rights you should also conclude that John was never taken up and never saw the River of Life. You would have to conclude that Job never experienced the wrath of Satan on his family because you neither believe that these things happen to people like me, mike, or Job. So you are really just making an argument for unbelief in these things.
Add the word “today” to the end of your statement.
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