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Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,03:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,08:43) Hi all! It has been claimed by some that the majority on this forum believed that Jesus was begotten before the ages or time as the Only Begotten Son of God born from Gods own body through procreation.
When was Jesus “begotten”?
What say you?
WJ
The son (the Word/Jesus) was not procreated, he was created. Jesus himself said, he is the beginning of God's “CREATION”, Rev. 3:14.
You can read about “His” beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.Georg
So God created his own word?So what did God use to create the Word since the Word was used in the creating of all things?
Was God ever without his Word?
Thats like saying there was a time that God did not have thoughts or reason. Foolishness!
WJ
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,01:39) Mike……….The point being it was NOT the Water Baptism that (begot) Jesus it was the HOLY Spirit that did it. That was my point. It was right away (AFTER) HIS BAPTISM Not before or during but ( AFTER) when He came Out of the WATER. Jesus was not begotten (WHEN) He was Baptized it was AFTER when the HOLY SPIRIT came on HIM is the POINT. Mike i think you need to understand what truly begot Jesus. Was it the water or was it the Holy Spirit? Now you who resist the notion that (through) can just as easily be render in the Greek text are now saying that the word (today) could also mean , (This time Period), seems you apply thing the way they best suit you, on the one hand it can't be, but when it comes to your opinions then it can be. Is not this being a little dishonest and deceptive on your part. Seems Like we have a double standard going on here.
peace and love………………………….gene
GeneAre you just wanting to be contentous?
Was Jesus begotten when he was water baptised or not?
WJ
Hi Gene,
Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't Jesus “baptised” by holy spirit? Was it the water that actually baptised him, or the holy spirit? I have always considered the water as a symbol of cleansing, but the actual baptising isn't concluded until you receive the spirit. Either way, I think this is what WJ meant by “when he was baptised” in his #3 choice. I think he was including the descention of the spirit upon Jesus.
You said:
Quote Now you who resist the notion that (through) can just as easily be render in the Greek text
They can't both be “for” at the end of Colossians 1:16, can they Gene? When will you explain that second “for” away?You said:
Quote are now saying that the word (today) could also mean , (This time Period),
The word today is “yowm” which can mean any general time period Gene. Look it up.You said:
Quote seems you apply thing the way they best suit you, on the one hand it can't be, but when it comes to your opinions then it can be. Is not this being a little dishonest and deceptive on your part. Seems Like we have a double standard going on here.
Gene, I'm just understanding scripture as it was written the best I can. And for that, you and Martian keep calling me “dishonest”.mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 14 2010,19:30) Hi Mike, There was no DAY… nor TIME … Either translation was Outside of Time and outside of Days.
Mike, are you saying you have been making selections 'by proxy'? Is this allowed?
Hi JA,You don't know whether or not God counted “days” before he caused Jesus to exist or not. You and the other 2 J's place all you emphasis on the word “Today”. And because God said “today”, you are willing to ignore the fact that God literally beget his Son when there is nothing in scripture to imply the word “yalad” that He used meant anything other than a literal begetting.
The fact that Paul quoted Psalm 2:7 in an effort to preach that Jesus IS the Son of God, not WHEN he became that didn't seem to throw off any of the early Bible scholars. Why do you three have such hard time with it? Oh, that's right……..ulterior motives.
So okay, which EXACT “today” was it that Jesus was “appointed as begotten Son of God”? Paul uses the wording “when Jesus was raised”. So was it when he came out of the tomb or was it when he ascended to heaven 40 days later? Which one was the “today” Paul referred to JA?
You guys ignore the fact that Paul is talking about promises made that were fulfilled by Jesus being raised. God never promised that he would eventually “appoint an only begotten Son”. So what promise was fulfilled when God rasied Jesus?
And each member can only vote once in these polls. I was making a joke about putting in and absentee ballot for Nick who is on vacation.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2010,02:35) Hi Gene, Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't Jesus “baptised” by holy spirit? Was it the water that actually baptised him, or the holy spirit? I have always considered the water as a symbol of cleansing, but the actual baptising isn't concluded until you receive the spirit. Either way, I think this is what WJ meant by “when he was baptised” in his #3 choice. I think he was including the descention of the spirit upon Jesus.
You said:
Quote Now you who resist the notion that (through) can just as easily be render in the Greek text
They can't both be “for” at the end of Colossians 1:16, can they Gene? When will you explain that second “for” away?You said:
Quote are now saying that the word (today) could also mean , (This time Period),
The word today is “yowm” which can mean any general time period Gene. Look it up.You said:
Quote seems you apply thing the way they best suit you, on the one hand it can't be, but when it comes to your opinions then it can be. Is not this being a little dishonest and deceptive on your part. Seems Like we have a double standard going on here.
Gene, I'm just understanding scripture as it was written the best I can. And for that, you and Martian keep calling me “dishonest”.mike
I would like to interject here to make a statement to Mikeboll:Mike,
You were losing the debate and finally went down by your statement that the Hebrews called angels “YHWH.” This blasphemous statement was your final undoing.
No Hebrew would have called an angel by the name “YHWH” because he knew he would have been put to death for profaning “the Name” (Lev. 24:16).
Jesus was put to death for for calling Himself the Son of God because this was tantamount to profaning “the Name.”
Really Mike, I will be hitting your blasphemy hard in my closing statement. And it's a good thing for you that people are not put to death under the new covenant.
the Roo
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,10:59) Why do you three have such hard time with it? Oh, that's right……..ulterior motives.
Like you don't have one?
Mike you pride yourself in accepting Greek and Hebrew words for their meaning then why do you not accept the meaning of “yowm”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,10:59) You don't know whether or not God counted “days” before he caused Jesus to exist or not. You and the other 2 J's place all you emphasis on the word “Today”.
Mike was Jesus there in the beginning of all things in Genesis 1:1, John 1:1-3 or not?There were no “days” before day one!
You are desperate man.
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,03:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2010,02:35) Hi Gene, Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't Jesus “baptised” by holy spirit? Was it the water that actually baptised him, or the holy spirit? I have always considered the water as a symbol of cleansing, but the actual baptising isn't concluded until you receive the spirit. Either way, I think this is what WJ meant by “when he was baptised” in his #3 choice. I think he was including the descention of the spirit upon Jesus.
You said:
Quote Now you who resist the notion that (through) can just as easily be render in the Greek text
They can't both be “for” at the end of Colossians 1:16, can they Gene? When will you explain that second “for” away?You said:
Quote are now saying that the word (today) could also mean , (This time Period),
The word today is “yowm” which can mean any general time period Gene. Look it up.You said:
Quote seems you apply thing the way they best suit you, on the one hand it can't be, but when it comes to your opinions then it can be. Is not this being a little dishonest and deceptive on your part. Seems Like we have a double standard going on here.
Gene, I'm just understanding scripture as it was written the best I can. And for that, you and Martian keep calling me “dishonest”.mike
I would like to interject here to make a statement to Mikeboll:Mike,
You were losing the debate and finally went down by your statement that the Hebrews called angels “YHWH.” This blasphemous statement was your final undoing.
No Hebrew would have called an angel by the name “YHWH” because he knew he would have been put to death for profaning “the Name” (Lev. 24:16).
Jesus was put to death for for calling Himself the Son of God because this was tantamount to profaning “the Name.”
Really Mike, I will be hitting your blasphemy hard in my closing statement. And it's a good thing for you that people are not put to death under the new covenant.
the Roo
I am curious. Where does it say you cannot profane the name?Mike,
No amount of thrashing will get you off this fishhook. And no point trying to turn the tables on JA… It is YOU who needs to “Prove” which “Day” and this is what you cannot do – because there were no “Days” before there were days (nor Time before there were times).
For my part it was when he returned to heaven.
– Book of Revelation shows the Lamb being selected as the only one worthy, and righteous enough to open the Scroll AND THEN being shown Obeisence by the 24 elders (Let the Angels of heaven do obeisence to him”)Remember, Scriptures says about God concerning this: “And the Light GOD CALLED DAY and the Dark HE CALLED NIGHT – and Evening and Morning were the “FIRST DAY” and we know that “pre-Jesus” was created before the FIRST Day
Mike ……..I do not believe you are (Intentionally) dishonest brother, nor am I. JA think i am deluded, well i think he is deluded on some things to. But being deluded does not mean we are dishonest even though it can appear that way. I believe most here are Honest on what they believe to be true, rather it really is true or Not. Much confusion has crept into the True Church since its conception, by false teachers and honest or deluded Trinitarian convected translators who through their beliefs have corrupted some scriptures. Therefore i believe it is imperative that the Spirit of Truth be our Guide and we need to follow its guidance. “BRETHREN YOU HAVE NO NEED OF A TEACHER FOR THE SPIRIT (ITSELF) SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS”. IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
Gene,
Even Satan can say what you just said… it is an empty statement… Everyone, Anyone.. can say what you just said…How have you directed anyone to truth?
Hi WJ,
You said:
Quote Mike you pride yourself in accepting Greek and Hebrew words for their meaning then why do you not accept the meaning of “yowm”?
I'm sorry Keith, but “1d) time, period (general)” is actually a definition of “yown”. So I DO accept the meaning.You said:
Quote There were no “days” before day one! You have no idea what was or wasn't before we existed. Please don't act as if you do.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,03:00) Really Mike, I will be hitting your blasphemy hard in my closing statement. And it's a good thing for you that people are not put to death under the new covenant.
Hit away Jack. I will be happy to debate you on this subject next time.But first, we must conclude the one about “elohim” and the plural pronouns.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,13:45) Hi WJ, You said:
Quote Mike you pride yourself in accepting Greek and Hebrew words for their meaning then why do you not accept the meaning of “yowm”?
I'm sorry Keith, but “1d) time, period (general)” is actually a definition of “yown”. So I DO accept the meaning.You said:
Quote There were no “days” before day one! You have no idea what was or wasn't before we existed. Please don't act as if you do.
mike
MikeWe are debating scriptures Mike, not conjecture.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “THIS DAY” have I begotten thee. Pss 2:7
There were no days before Day one., or before the beginning and Jesus was there in the beginning of all things.
So clear.
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 15 2010,03:25) Mike, No amount of thrashing will get you off this fishhook. And no point trying to turn the tables on JA… It is YOU who needs to “Prove” which “Day” and this is what you cannot do – because there were no “Days” before there were days (nor Time before there were times).
Oh no, no, no JA.Paul says a promise was fulfilled by Jesus being raised. You say the promise that was fulfilled was the promise God (apparently somewhere in the Bible) made about someday appointing someone to the position of “begotten Son”.
What specific “Today” was it that Jesus was appointed? Was it the “today” that he was raised from the dead? Or was it the “today” that he ascended into heaven, 40 days later? Which one was the “today”?
Btw, stop thrashing about……you make yourself look silly. You are no match for me, spirit and scripture working together, man. Just answer which “today” it was, and then explain how Jesus was able to say he was already God's only begotten Son before he was raised.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,05:53) Mike We are debating scriptures Mike, not conjecture.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “THIS DAY” have I begotten thee. Pss 2:7
Hi WJ,Why not answer the questions I just asked JA. And when you're done, you can explain why you think none of the early church “fathers” thought like you do.
Were they not aware of Hebrews 1? Or do you think that, like me, they just took Paul's quotation of Psalm 2 to be explaining that Jesus IS the Son of God, not WHEN he became that.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,13:54) You are no match for me, spirit and scripture working together, man.
He is beating his chest again!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,13:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,05:53) Mike We are debating scriptures Mike, not conjecture.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “THIS DAY” have I begotten thee. Pss 2:7
Hi WJ,Why not answer the questions I just asked JA. And when you're done, you can explain why you think none of the early church “fathers” thought like you do.
Were they not aware of Hebrews 1? Or do you think that, like me, they just took Paul's quotation of Psalm 2 to be explaining that Jesus IS the Son of God, not WHEN he became that.mike
MikeWe are talking about scriptures.
We know in the scritpures that day one started in the beginning and Jesus was already there.
So the burden of proof is to you to show that “This day I have begotten you” was before the beginning.
You can't do that can you Mike?
Was Pss 2:7 before the beginning of time, if so prove it by scriptures?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,13:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,05:53) Mike We are debating scriptures Mike, not conjecture.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “THIS DAY” have I begotten thee. Pss 2:7
Hi WJ,Why not answer the questions I just asked JA. And when you're done, you can explain why you think none of the early church “fathers” thought like you do.
Were they not aware of Hebrews 1? Or do you think that, like me, they just took Paul's quotation of Psalm 2 to be explaining that Jesus IS the Son of God, not WHEN he became that.mike
MikeYour questions are diversions because it doesn't matter what day he was begotten on. What matters is it was “ON A DAY” and that was after the beginning of all things.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,05:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,13:54) You are no match for me, spirit and scripture working together, man.
He is beating his chest again!
Actually WJ, I did that on purpose so JA could get a taste of it. This is how HE posts, not me. It was a joke, and I was waiting for him to respond so I could say, “See how that arrogant crap feels?”Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,14:09) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,05:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,13:54) You are no match for me, spirit and scripture working together, man.
He is beating his chest again!
Actually WJ, I did that on purpose so JA could get a taste of it. This is how HE posts, not me. It was a joke, and I was waiting for him to respond so I could say, “See how that arrogant crap feels?”
YeaWell you have beaten your chest against Jack and I more than once but i will accept your explanation and retract my statement.
WJ
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