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How it feels to be on the receiving end of an ignorant flat earther
I’m from NZ. If the earth was flat, then my observation and experience lead to this map. It agrees with my travel experiences between NZ and South America as well as confirm witnesses I know who have been to the South Pole and Antarctica in general. Further, the reason the water will not fall off the edge is because the Artic is a huge ice wall that hems in the oceans.
But this would of course be offensive or at least hilarious to those from the Northern Hemisphere because it wouldn’t agree with their experience. But what if I just said too bad. Well, this is what it is like arguing with a flat earther from the Northern Hemisphere when you are from the Southern Hemisphere. Lol. Yep, that dumb.
Not expecting an answer here. Just making a general point about your world view Mike and how unscientific it is. And knowing this fact, it casts deep doubt your understanding of the creation account.
Mike: BUT WHAT IF THE MICAH PROPHECY HAD SAID THIS…
IN THE EVENING OF THE FIRST DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, PEOPLE WILL COME TO YOU FROM ASSYRIA, AND BY THE MORNING OF THE SECOND DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, THEY WILL BEGIN TO ARRIVE FROM THE CITIES OF EGYPT.
THEN WOULD WE BE TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS? YES OR NO?
Proclaimer: Yes…
Thank you for finally giving an honest answer to one of my questions. Keep in mind that this doesn’t count as a DIFFERENT “Must Answer” question that I have asked.
Proclaimer…I agree that you could reword it to make it more likely to be 24 hour days. A surface read of your text would be more likely understood as 24 hours because what you describe could be done in 24 hours. But it still wouldn’t be proof that it would be 24 hour days. It could be longer days than 24 hour solar days.
Then all you have to do is demonstrate how a very similar statement – in the Bible or in the history of mankind in general – DIDN’T refer to literal days. If that happens, we’ll discuss it more at that time. Until then, your answer of YES is accepted as the only reasonable and honest answer that could have been given.
Now for my next MUST ANSWER question:
Since it is abundantly clear and now acknowledged by you that my analogy Micah prophecy is talking about literal days, is there any SCRIPTURE that makes it undeniably clear that when God used the same kind of language in Genesis 1 (numerical values and evening/morning attributed to the days), and that when God clearly EQUATED the six days of creation with the six days the Israelites were to work before taking a day off, He WASN’T talking about literal days? YES or NO?
Note: I’m not asking for your own opinions on how long it would take trees to grow. I’m not asking for your own opinion on how there couldn’t be light before the sun existed. I’m not asking for your opinion on how God may or may not experience the passage of time. I am asking for an actual SCRIPTURE that undeniably and explicitly makes it abundantly clear that when God said “six days” (or “day one”, “the second day”, “the third day”, etc) He meant something other than literal days. You need to quote the exact SCRIPTURE(S), or answer with a definitive “No” to clearly indicate that there are no such scriptures.
Proclaimer: This discussion is called “The Bible vs Scientism”. Those posts are very on topic Mike.
Then include a scripture from the BIBLE that teaches something about the videos/photos/memes that you post – so I can address them according to the BIBLE.
If they cannot be addressed using the BIBLE, then they are not on topic. Since the ones that you’ve posted so far do NOT include any teaching from the BIBLE, please remove them as I requested.
And while doing so, remember that I’m requesting this for your benefit, not mine. It wasn’t me who took 6 weeks, a lot of discussion, and multiple maps to find an answer that was only one day and one post removed from the question.
At any rate, remove the ones you’ve posted, and if you want to post others as part of this discussion, make sure to include the scriptures that relate to them. And post them as “Must Answer” questions. I’m done cluttering up the thread with brilliant answers to your many misunderstandings just for you to ignore them. I’ll keep it to “Must Answer” questions and answers from here on out. And I request that, in the interest of clarity, you do the same from now on. Thanks.
Two posts above this one, I asked my next new “Must Answer” question to you. The following is not a new question, but one of my previous “Must Answer” questions that you didn’t reasonably answer. You’ll need to answer it along with the new “Must Answer” question from two posts above this one (Post #932540).
PROCLAIMER, DOES THE PLURAL WORD “DAYS” EVER REFER TO ANYTHING OTHER THAN LITERAL DAYS IN THE BIBLE? YES OR NO? AND IF YES, SHOW THE SCRIPTURE(S).
You previously answered: “Not sure. I could research it, but I honestly am not sure.”
I reject that answer as evasive, because it is something that you COULD research very easily. Do a Bible search for the word “days”, read the context of each, and list any instances in which “days” clearly and unequivocally refers to something other than literal days. Or clearly acknowledge that there are no such instances in the Bible.
Please answer this previously asked “Must Answer” question in the format included in the question, ie: NO or YES with your scriptural example(s). Thanks.
Now for my next MUST ANSWER question:
SINCE IT HAS BEEN RECENTLY ACKNOWLEDGED BY YOU THAT MY ANALOGY MICAH PROPHECY IS TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS…
IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURE THAT MAKES IT UNDENIABLY CLEAR THAT WHEN GOD USED THE SAME KIND OF LANGUAGE IN GENESIS 1 (NUMERICAL VALUES AND EVENING/MORNING ATTRIBUTED TO THE DAYS), AND THAT WHEN GOD CLEARLY EQUATED THE SIX DAYS OF CREATION WITH THE SIX DAYS THE ISRAELITES WERE TO WORK BEFORE TAKING A DAY OFF, HE WASN’T TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS? YES OR NO?
Note: I’m not asking for your own opinions on how long it would take trees to grow. I’m not asking for your own opinion on how there couldn’t be light before the sun existed. I’m not asking for your opinion on how God may or may not experience the passage of time. I am asking for an actual SCRIPTURE that undeniably and explicitly makes it abundantly clear that when God said “six days” (or “day one”, “the second day”, “the third day”, etc) He meant something other than literal days. You need to quote the exact SCRIPTURE(S), or answer with a definitive “No” to clearly indicate that there are no such scriptures.
Answering Mike’s question
SINCE IT HAS BEEN RECENTLY ACKNOWLEDGED BY YOU THAT MY ANALOGY MICAH PROPHECY IS TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS…
IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURE THAT MAKES IT UNDENIABLY CLEAR THAT WHEN GOD USED THE SAME KIND OF LANGUAGE IN GENESIS 1 (NUMERICAL VALUES AND EVENING/MORNING ATTRIBUTED TO THE DAYS), AND THAT WHEN GOD CLEARLY EQUATED THE SIX DAYS OF CREATION WITH THE SIX DAYS THE ISRAELITES WERE TO WORK BEFORE TAKING A DAY OFF, HE WASN’T TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS? YES OR NO?OMG, the first part is yes, there is a scripture, and no, they are not literal 24 hour earth days. Mike, please learn how to properly craft a yes / no question for next time. Your question was confusing and I wasn’t sure if I was suppose to say yes or no. There might be a tutorial on YouTube that could help you if you wish to improve your writing.
Anyway, I first want to say that the question was right there in the last post. I didn’t have to troll through endless ramblings looking for the needle in the haystack. You made it easy. Thanks for that. If you do that more often, the conversation can flow. Anyhow, I will answer this badly crafted but easy question now. But note, I also will need to rewind to see if you answered my last question sufficiently. I suspect not. Anyhow, you would be aware that I answered your question in the pizza thread ages ago and multiple times. But here we go again for the record.
It’s clearly not 24 hour days for the following reasons.
What stands out about Genesis 1 is that God only exists in the beginning and we know from other scriptures that creation came through the Word from God, and that our 24 hour day is measured by the creation of the sun and earth and within our age. Further, scripture clearly tells us that a day for God is not like a day for us, rather a longer time, like a thousand years which I think is arbitrary BTW. This has often been implored in prophecy for example for the last days or the last hour which most do not believe is an actual hour based on our clock or experience, but is an hour from God’s perspective and in his plan.
Further, you state that the sun wasn’t created until the third day which makes you stance 10 times worse, because 24 hour days didn’t exist yet because they are based on the creation of both the earth and sun. So, the sun wasn’t even there for half of the creation week according to you, yet for some strange reason, you insist it is 24 hours anyway.
Your belief system regarding God’s creation proves to me that your mind is simple. You really cannot comprehend the third dimension, gravity, and how time differs from context. Another scripture clearly states that our ways are not his ways, but you insist that God’s experience is the same as ours for some reason. That means you are wrong of course. God is not a man and doesn’t see or measure things as a man.
In a nutshell, you believe the following folly:
- The cosmos is understood in two dimensions because three dimensions is too confusing for you.
- A universal 24 hour day for all creation that even God is subjected to for some reason that you are yet to explain.
- A universal uppity force in the entire cosmos. Up is always the same direction in the cosmic snow globe.
- East and west is all over the place. Compasses make their mind up depending what quadrant you are in when standing on the flat earth. Further, you can arrive in the Antarctica if you head far enough east or west. For example, if you take a boat west from Hawaii, you will hit the ice wall. No one has ever embarked on such a trip however. Seems a bit suspect Mike. Lol. No one has tested this or any other east west direction for long enough.
A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps.
Mike: IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURE THAT MAKES IT UNDENIABLY CLEAR THAT WHEN GOD USED THE SAME KIND OF LANGUAGE IN GENESIS 1 (NUMERICAL VALUES AND EVENING/MORNING ATTRIBUTED TO THE DAYS), AND THAT WHEN GOD CLEARLY EQUATED THE SIX DAYS OF CREATION WITH THE SIX DAYS THE ISRAELITES WERE TO WORK BEFORE TAKING A DAY OFF, HE WASN’T TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS? YES OR NO?
Note: I’m not asking for your own opinions on how long it would take trees to grow. I’m not asking for your own opinion on how there couldn’t be light before the sun existed. I’m not asking for your opinion on how God may or may not experience the passage of time. I am asking for an actual SCRIPTURE that undeniably and explicitly makes it abundantly clear that when God said “six days” (or “day one”, “the second day”, “the third day”, etc) He meant something other than literal days. You need to quote the exact SCRIPTURE(S), or answer with a definitive “No” to clearly indicate that there are no such scriptures.
Proclaimer: …yes, there is a scripture…
And? Where is the rest of your answer? What scripture? And how does it EXPLICITLY and UNDENIABLY teach that the days in Gen 1 are not literal days?
Are you stupid?
It doesn’t explicitly state 12 or 24 hours, thus it is determined by context. And the context is days before man and according to you, even before the sun.
So taking in the whole counsel of scripture, we know a day for God is not the same length for us. End of story. It is like a thousand years. In short, a very long time. Not 24 hours. Comprehendo?
This is what you arrive at if you take scripture seriously. Further, ignoring this truth just makes you ignorant. And a person who practices ignorance is an ignoramus.
Must answer question
What is the Hebrew word for heaven or heavens?
If you already agree it’s already Shamayim, then the question becomes:
Did God call the Raqia – Shamayim.
Which in English is:
Did God call the expanse – heaven?
Yes or No.
Mike …..Heres one for you, Satan your mentor said, that they wouldn’t die when they eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, right? BUT God said they would die “in “the day, ” they ate of it, but you see they never died in a 24 hour day after they ate of it now did they? But they certanily did die within a thousand years after they ate of it, as all of mankind has sense, not one has lived over a thousand years. That proves God was speaking of his timming period, in Genesis, “a thousand years equals a day with God ” . So, Proclaimer is right, you wrong, again.
Peace and love to you and your Mike………gene
Good question Gene.
But you know that Mike will have your post deleted because this is a private discussion.
To preserve your post, I suggest you repost it in the FE topic or even better, start up a Hot Seat discussion with him to force an answer.
Your post won’t be deleted till he asks, so that will give you some time.
Must answer question
Did God call the Raqia – Shamayim?
Which in English is:
Did God call the expanse – heaven?
Yes or No.
Pretender, since you refused to honor the previous question by producing any scripture that makes it explicitly clear that the days in Gen 1 are anything other than regular 24 hour days (each with a single morning and a single evening, and equated to literal days by God Himself in Ex 20:11 and 31:17), I will accept this refusal as a direct answer from you that no such scripture exists.
Now that I have answered your most recent Must Answer question, here is my next one…
PROCLAIMER, DOES THE PLURAL WORD “DAYS” EVER REFER TO ANYTHING OTHER THAN LITERAL DAYS IN THE BIBLE? YES OR NO? AND IF YES, SHOW THE SCRIPTURE(S) in which it is explicitly and undeniably made abundantly clear that these days are indeed something other than literal days.
The first time I asked it, you ignored it.
The second time I asked it, you answered, “Not sure. I could research it, but I honestly am not sure.”
I reject that answer as evasive, because it is something that you COULD research very easily (and certainly could have in the many months since I first asked it). Do a Bible search for the plural word “days”, read the context of each, and list any instances in which “days” clearly and unequivocally refers to something other than literal days. Or clearly acknowledge that there are no such UNEQUIVOCAL instances in the Bible.
Please answer this previously asked “Must Answer” question in the format included in the question, ie: NO, or YES with your EXPLICIT scriptural example(s).
And as with the last question, an answer of Yes WITHOUT the scripture(s) that explicitly support that answer will be counted as a decisive No from you.
Pretender, since you refused to honor the previous question by producing any scripture that makes it explicitly clear that the days in Gen 1 are anything other than regular 24 hour days (each with a single morning and a single evening, and equated to literal days by God Himself in Ex 20:11 and 31:17), I will accept this refusal as a direct answer from you that no such scripture exists.
Not so.
Days are determined by context. Genesis 1 starts with God creating the heavens and earth, This was way before man was created. And before the sun was created according to you. There are many instances where ‘day’ is clearly is not 24 hours. sometimes it just means daylight which can be varying hours. But there are other periods of time that can span many years even a thousand years. So, the rule you are trying to establish is without merit.
Obviously then, anyone with an ounce of common sense will see that a day is a period determined by the context. In the context of our experience, it is usually 12 or 24 hours or thereabouts. But it can also NOT be a single solar day. If I say “in my day”, I am not talking about a solar day at all, but a general period of my own life, usually my youth.
Here are further examples that clearly debunk your absolute rule. Further, the last verse has the whole creation of heaven and earth in a single day (yom).
“but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day
+
Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.
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“As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’”
“These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day [yom] that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.”
Boom!
Another successful debunk to add to the collection.
Case closed!
Question answered
PROCLAIMER, DOES THE PLURAL WORD “DAYS” EVER REFER TO ANYTHING OTHER THAN LITERAL DAYS IN THE BIBLE? YES OR NO? AND IF YES, SHOW THE SCRIPTURE(S) IN WHICH IT IS EXPLICITLY AND UNDENIABLY MADE ABUNDANTLY CLEAR THAT THESE DAYS ARE INDEED SOMETHING OTHER THAN LITERAL DAYS.
The first time I asked it, you ignored it.The second time I asked it, you answered, “Not sure. I could research it, but I honestly am not sure.”
I don’t know, but it doesn’t matter. You have to ask yourself how many instances are there where days are numbered? If one or a few, then that is not a big enough data set to establish a rule. And of course the lion share of days with or without numbers will be solar days. In fact just daylight as distinguished from night. Because that is the context around most of the stories and events in the bible.
The creation week is not your average subject in scripture because man didn’t exist for much of it. Most scripture is centred around our own existence and we know that a day to the LORD is like a thousand years. So six of his days would be like 6 thousand years or could be 6 epochs for all we know. Sorry Mike, but that is scriptural. Accept it because scripture says so. Or do not believe scripture which is your prerogative.
Finally, here we have an instance of a single day or the non-plural version of day (yom) and look what God did in that so-called 24 hour period.
He created the heavens and the earth.
Would you look at that. Case closed! Back to the drawing board for Mike.
“These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day [yom] that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.”
This day (yom) is clearly NOT 24 hours and it is talking about creation of all things. Thus, we can clearly see that the six or seven days of creation are also NOT 24 hours long, rather six periods or seasons within that single creation day that could be any length of time.
A day to God is not the same length of time for a day to us.
Case closed!
Mike said:
Yes, God named the raqia heavenAwesome. And Paul was caught up to the third heaven.
So if God was in heaven (perhaps the third heaven or maybe the seventh), then he can easily create an expanse or space for the stars (second heaven perhaps) and also space or an expanse to divide the waters to below and above (first heaven where the birds fly perhaps). That is, seas, lakes, rivers, etc from clouds which are the same waters and form what we call the water cycle.
Bada bing bada boom! We have an alignment with the bible and science / observation without compromising scripture.
There you go. An expanse between the waters and an expanse where the stars are. Further, it is this very expanse or space between the waters that allows us to see the stars, sun, and moon in the first place. If there was no expanse between the waters, just a misty watery gassy atmosphere (like Venus perhaps), then there would likely still be light and darkness, because God already created the heavens and earth. Read the opening verse of Genesis to confirm that.
So I do not have to contend with the waters above God or the stars like you do. And I still have the option with my understanding to believe that there are waters above the stars. The river of life or water that once you taste, you will never thirst.
Case closed!
I like the Hot Seat.
You get progress.
Three cases closed in minutes.
My turn for a question.
Let me think about a really good question.
Prep for my question.
Here is an introductory post that will help make my following question easier to understand by providing some context.
Mike, you believe flat earthers have demonstrated that they have brought back boats when we say that they have gone over the horizon. Of course, we exposed this by explaining that the boats you guys brought back were the following:
- They never went over the horizon to begin with but instead were just too small to see.
- Zooming in simply magnified the boat so it become big enough to see.
- Often you guys made the boat disappear again by zooming out beyond what you would see with your eyes. In other words, the boat was made smaller than what the unaided eye would see.
We also mentioned that you cannot perform bringing back the boat using a boat that is too big to disappear due to size. It will disappear bottom up because despite it’s size, it goes over the curve because the earth is not flat. But you have failed to bring them back
This point is really well and truly debunked, but you never acknowledged that you lost. So I want to get you to admit this proof of yours is wrong or I want to see some proof that you are right. So look out for my next question soon that will address this.
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