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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 17 2011,07:17) Kathi, [You] thought should know that the bridegroom that is coming for the church is the Son, Yahweh.”? That is ridiculous and very untrue! No, the son is not Yahweh! The son is Yahshua and his and our Father's Name is Yahweh. Any simpleton knows that one can not be their own father and that one can not be their own son!
Well Frank, I totally agree.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2011,07:22) Frank,
But I never said that He was His own Father. There are two persons that are called Yahweh. The Father gave His Son His own name. Many fathers do that even now. Do you have a Frank Jr.?John 17:11″I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
Kathi, we have been given the name of Jesus Christ and we are not Jesus Christ.In my name you shall cast out demons…
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2011,07:24) Also Frank,
Can you show me any NT verses that tell us that the Father is the bridegroom or the husband of the redeemed?Thanks,
Kathi
Kathi, is that scripture talking about Israel or the Church?I know that Jesus didn't die for Israel but for all and God dealt with Israel by sending prophets then finally his son who died for all.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 17 2011,07:27) I guess you will not get it through your thick head! I have lost nothing! Again, I am not here to win! I did give an answer! You just do not agree with my answer!
I will put it this way Frank.When you cannot answer a serious or logical question that poses a threat to your doctrine, then do not be surprised if people don't accept your doctrine at your word.
Yes you are entitled to believe what you want and you are entitled to ignore any opposition even justified questions.
But after doing that, do not expect that people will take what you say seriously.
The point of Heaven Net is to test all things, even so called sacred things.
If your doctrine is not open to be tested against scripture, then it remains your opinion and that is all.
And yes you are entitled to your opinion.A true believer knowing the deception in the world would do well to question all things to see if they are so.
Anything less than that is inadequate.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2011,08:20) Frank, you say you've answered my questions. Perhaps I missed your answers to these last two I asked: Frank, at what point in Jesus' life was he so swelled up with pride that he had to empty himself of it?
At what point in your life were you in a different form prior to being made into the likeness of a human being?
These questions were asked based on answers you gave to my initial questions; and I have yet to see an answer to them. Could you link me to the page on this thread where you answered them like you keep claiming you did?
And Kathi, this thread is for discussing whether or not Jesus pre-existed. Please keep your comments focused on that issue, and not the “Jesus is God Almighty” issue.
Thanks,
mike
Mike,Again, I do not wish to enter into a debate with you and your foolish questions! You know full well that I do not believe in this manner! I simply will not respond to such foolishness!
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 17 2011,15:43) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 17 2011,07:27) I guess you will not get it through your thick head! I have lost nothing! Again, I am not here to win! I did give an answer! You just do not agree with my answer!
I will put it this way Frank.When you cannot answer a serious or logical question that poses a threat to your doctrine, then do not be surprised if people don't accept your doctrine at your word.
Yes you are entitled to believe what you want and you are entitled to ignore any opposition even justified questions.
But after doing that, do not expect that people will take what you say seriously.
The point of Heaven Net is to test all things, even so called sacred things.
If your doctrine is not open to be tested against scripture, then it remains your opinion and that is all.
And yes you are entitled to your opinion.A true believer knowing the deception in the world would do well to question all things to see if they are so.
Anything less than that is inadequate.
I go for that 100%well said T8
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 17 2011,08:43) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 17 2011,07:27) I guess you will not get it through your thick head! I have lost nothing! Again, I am not here to win! I did give an answer! You just do not agree with my answer!
I will put it this way Frank.When you cannot answer a serious or logical question that poses a threat to your doctrine, then do not be surprised if people don't accept your doctrine at your word.
Yes you are entitled to believe what you want and you are entitled to ignore any opposition even justified questions.
But after doing that, do not expect that people will take what you say seriously.
The point of Heaven Net is to test all things, even so called sacred things.
If your doctrine is not open to be tested against scripture, then it remains your opinion and that is all.
And yes you are entitled to your opinion.A true believer knowing the deception in the world would do well to question all things to see if they are so.
Anything less than that is inadequate.
t8,I will put it this way! I most certainly will answer a serious or logical question, but foolish questions I simply refuse to answer!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2011,08:20) Frank, you say you've answered my questions. Perhaps I missed your answers to these last two I asked: Frank, at what point in Jesus' life was he so swelled up with pride that he had to empty himself of it?
At what point in your life were you in a different form prior to being made into the likeness of a human being?
These questions were asked based on answers you gave to my initial questions; and I have yet to see an answer to them. Could you link me to the page on this thread where you answered them like you keep claiming you did?
And Kathi, this thread is for discussing whether or not Jesus pre-existed. Please keep your comments focused on that issue, and not the “Jesus is God Almighty” issue.
Thanks,
mike
Mike,Just to make it clear, I do not believe that Kathi believes that “Jesus is God Almighty”, but I could be wrong, since I was under the impression that she believes as you do. Yes, this thread is for discussing whether or not Yahshua pre-existed, but what if one believes that he pre-existed as Yahweh Almighty as you know many do? Certainly that would fit into the topic of this thread, would it not? It seems to me that Kathi erroneously believes that Yahshua pre-existed as a “god” or an “angel” with Father Yahweh in the beginning. Just to make it clear, I do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being in any form.
Frank4YAHWEH
Quote I will put it this way! I most certainly will answer a serious or logical question, but foolish questions I simply refuse to answer! this is one of the most unserious answer I ever sew,
Pierre
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 16 2011,15:46) Mike, Again, I do not wish to enter into a debate with you and your foolish questions!
Frank,Phil 2 says Jesus was existing in the form of God, and then emptied himself and took on the form of a servant.
I asked you what Jesus emptied himself OF. You said he emptied himself of pride.
So I asked you when Jesus ever had pride, or lorded it over others that he was the Son of God to the point that he had to empty himself OF this pride.
I fail to see how this is a “foolish question”. I acknowledge your answer of “pride”, and want to know when it was that he HAD this pride he emptied himself of.
I also asked you how one can be MADE INTO the likeness of a human being if he already was a human being. You said that you were both a human being AND were MADE INTO a human being. So I asked if you had ever been in any other form BEFORE being MADE INTO a human being.
Again, I don't see this question as “foolish”. I do however see your refusal to answer these questions as a tell-tale sign that you have made up your mind what you're going to believe; and you are going to keep on believing it – whether or not those beliefs actually align with the words of scripture.
That, of course, is YOUR choice. But all the name-calling is unnecessary. And it isn't honest for you to say you have answered my questions when the truth is that you don't want to answer them. At least be honest in your statements, okay?
peace,
mikeQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 16 2011,16:16)
Mike,Just to make it clear, I do not believe that Kathi believes that “Jesus is God Almighty”, but I could be wrong……..
You are. I've been discussing scripture with Kathi for two and a half years here. She believes that we have two Almighty Gods who form the one “plural unity Godhead” of Jehovah.She doesn't agree that God is multiple persons in one Being like the Trinitarians comically claim. Instead, she believes the “Unity of God” is two separate beings – both of them “God Most High Jehovah” – likewise comical to some of us.
(I'm pretty sure that's where she's at right now. It's sometimes hard to keep up with her, because her imagination causes her doctrine to change quite frequently.)
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 16 2011,16:16)
Yes, this thread is for discussing whether or not Yahshua pre-existed, but what if one believes that he pre-existed as Yahweh Almighty as you know many do? Certainly that would fit into the topic of this thread, would it not?
Fair enough.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2011,10:08) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 16 2011,15:46) Mike, Again, I do not wish to enter into a debate with you and your foolish questions!
Frank,Phil 2 says Jesus was existing in the form of God, and then emptied himself and took on the form of a servant.
I asked you what Jesus emptied himself OF. You said he emptied himself of pride.
So I asked you when Jesus ever had pride, or lorded it over others that he was the Son of God to the point that he had to empty himself OF this pride.
I fail to see how this is a “foolish question”. I acknowledge your answer of “pride”, and want to know when it was that he HAD this pride he emptied himself of.
I also asked you how one can be MADE INTO the likeness of a human being if he already was a human being. You said that you were both a human being AND were MADE INTO a human being. So I asked if you had ever been in any other form BEFORE being MADE INTO a human being.
Again, I don't see this question as “foolish”. I do however see your refusal to answer these questions as a tell-tale sign that you have made up your mind what you're going to believe; and you are going to keep on believing it – whether or not those beliefs actually align with the words of scripture.
That, of course, is YOUR choice. But all the name-calling is unnecessary. And it isn't honest for you to say you have answered my questions when the truth is that you don't want to answer them. At least be honest in your statements, okay?
peace,
mike
Mike,I made it aware to you some time ago about your pet peeve translation and your interpretation of this translation and simply answered you in according to this translation and took it in accordance with Scripture as a whole. Actually, I do not believe Yahshua “emptied himself” of being a “god” or an “angel” or whatever you believe he pre-existed his birth as, since in context it does not state such foolishness. You are simply assuming that he pre-existed his birth and interpreting the verse in this manner and in turn following how Trinitarians interpret this verse with their pre-existent “Jesus” concept. I believe he made himself of no reputation of being boastful or proud, but instead humbled himself. This follows in accordance with the context of what is said before this verse. Note the diverse translations of this verse:
Also observe the notes and commentaries after these diverse translations at the bottom of this page at http://www.bible.cc.
I still do not see why you are insistent on debating this with me, since I have clearly made it known to you that I have no desire whatsoever to enter into a debate with you on this matter. I have better things to do with my time than to enter into frivolous debates about foolishness. Please stop badgering me about what it is that I believe. Have I badgered you about what it is that you believe? Certainly not! You can believe what you want to believe! No skin off my back in your doing so! Now, go lay down and be the wolf that you are and stop biting at my heels with your foolishness! Get a life already!
Just be honest Frank. That's all I'm asking. Don't tell the good people here that you've answered questions when you really haven't, okay?
Proverbs 8:22-31 NIV
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.Frank, do you believe that this passage is about Jesus? YES or NO?
Quote That, of course, is YOUR choice. But all the name-calling is unnecessary. And it isn't honest for you to say you have answered my questions when the truth is that you don't want to answer them. At least be honest in your statements, okay? Mike,
I called you a fool because that is simply what I see you as and I am simply being truthful and honest in my perception of you. Is there a rule on this forum that says that one must answer all of Mike's questions no matter how foolish they may seem to be? I have not seen such a rule! I have been honest with you in my statements! Yes, the truth is that I do not want to answer your foolish questions as I have clearly STATED a number of times in saying in my previous posts that I have no desire whatsoever to enter into a debate with you. That also includes answering your foolish questions, since this would be entering into a debate with you on this matter.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 17 2011,02:57) T8……..Can't you see your Monitor and his ignorant Ch-hart drug Frank into saying and reacting the way he did, is it because you agree with them you jump in on Frank also?> You ask people to be Polite here and that is good but should not you monitor be even more polite and considerate of others also? He and his Co-hart make snide remarks and posts with insulating Icons at people, do you ever chastise them, NO , Just sit back and let them draw people into personal conflicts and then when that respond to there provocations you allow them to hand out tiles to then which will ultimately rid them from the site this give then advantages over there opponents , Mike and Pierre both should already have had many tiles by you IMO, but i notice none for them even throw they are the ones who insult other here , but becasue they believe in preexistences they are not penalized, surely you should be able to read and see their responses and see this> IMO peace and love………………………………………………………….gene
T8……..This post still hold true, if you will go back and read where the insults and personal attacks start you will find in most cases it comes from you Monitor and His co-harts. He continually says people don't not answer his question when they have many times , i know i have and i have seen Paladin and others answer him also to and He starts his insults by saying “WILL YOU PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION”, when in fact they have been answered many times, He is either ignoring the answers or just plain does not care about them. I have said this before Mike In my opinion and others has no interest in truth at all because he think he already has the truth about every thing we talk about. I also noticed you ignored much of what i said in the above post. IMOpeace and Love…………………………………………gene
Gene, would you show us?
Can you post the evidence of your claims? Can you show us all where Frank or Paladin answered a question I asked, but then I asked them to answer that same question again?
Can you show the post where I “started it” with Frank?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2011,11:22) Just be honest Frank. That's all I'm asking. Don't tell the good people here that you've answered questions when you really haven't, okay? Proverbs 8:22-31 NIV
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.Frank, do you believe that this passage is about Jesus? YES or NO?
Mike,No, I do not believe that this is about Yahshua. In the context of this translation it is wisdom personified. Note it says “I wisdom …”, not 'I Yahshua …”.
For those who are truly interested, I have a web page that speaks about personification of Scripture in translation at: http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/HolySpiritAnIt.html .
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2011,11:22) Just be honest Frank. That's all I'm asking. Don't tell the good people here that you've answered questions when you really haven't, okay? Proverbs 8:22-31 NIV
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.Frank, do you believe that this passage is about Jesus? YES or NO?
Mike…………..The answer to you question is NO it's talking about WISDOM which is an “ATTRIBUTE” of GOD and all who have IT.Scripture personifies Wisdom as a SHE not a HE as Jesus was.
Prov1:20………Wisdom crieths without She utters Her voice in the streets: 21, She crieth in the chief places of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city (SHE) utters (HER) words.
Pro 7:4…> Say unto wisdom, Thou art my Sister .
Mike this is a foolish question and anyone that understands scriptures should know this and why should Frank or anyone else answer such a foolish question, I only answered it to show you how foolish those questions are. No Jesus is NOT WISDOM , but that is not to say He did not poses WISDOM Like any on can also.
You trying to support a PREEXISTENCE DOCTRINE by this is also Foolish. IMO
peace and Love……………………………………gene
Hi Frank,
Thank you for your answer.
Proverbs 30:4 NIV
4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
Surely you know!Frank, who do you suppose the son is in this proverb?
Quote Don't tell the good people here that you've answered questions when you really haven't, okay? Mike,
Just because you do not agree with how I have answered a particular question that you have asked does not mean that I have not answered your question. If you asked me if I wore pink panties and I ANSWERED you in saying “That was a foolish question!” I have still ANSWERED your question, right?
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