Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,14:20)

So Jesus is the plant root of David? Enough of reducing your argument to an absurdity as I believe you are trying to make the point that “Jesus is the root of David” cannot mean “Jesus is the root of David’s faith”.

Jesus is not a plant, Kerwin.  But didn't you know that Jesus used plants for his parables?  Are we not to take a lesson from the fig tree to discern the beginning of the end?

I find it very telling that you recognize that the root of a plant comes BEFORE the trunk, and branch of a plant comes AFTER the trunk.  But you cannot transfer that simple analogy over to a human teaching and see that Jesus is saying he came both BEFORE David and AFTER David.

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,14:20)

I do not believe these words of yours are true but I acknowledge that according to one definition of Strong’s that would be the case.    I do not see that definition fitting the context of the passage in question.

Of course you don't.  Because of your predisposed belief, you are unwilling to just take the scriptural words as they are written.  In every scripture, you search to find something else it could possibly mean, because what it clearly says doesn't quite fit into your own beliefs.  And look at where this practice has led you:  You now believe in an UNKNOWN only begotten Son of God.  

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,14:20)

Instead I am convinced that Jesus is the faith root of David because Jesus believed that a time would come when the seed of his body would sit on his throne forever.

That makes no sense, Kerwin.  How could what Jesus believed 2000 years later be the “root”, or basis for DAVID'S faith?  

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,14:20)

Gene is correct that you do have a predisposed position that you believe fits the context of Revelations 22:16 and other scriptures.  I believe you are convinced that position is based on ideas expressed in other scriptures.  The question is whether those ideas are from God or are they from mankind.

Well, if my Lord clearly says, “I came down from heaven”, then I'd say that is from God.  If my Lord clearly asks to be glorified with the glory he had alongside God before the world existed, I'd say that is from God.

Here's how it is, Kerwin:  God spoke through Micah about a coming Messiah, whose origins were actually from ancient times.  I take that to mean that our Messiah's origins WERE from ancient times.  YOU, on the other hand, immediately set out to find some other meaning to those words, because the words as they are do not fit in with YOUR OWN predisposed understanding.

How about you join in the “Root and Branch” discussion with Gene and I in the incarnation thread, so I don't have to be answering the same things in two different threads?

peace,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2011,07:38)

would it not be that Christ came from heaven ?or was Jesus tried to deceit Nicodemus by making up a story ? or was Jesus talking in a allegory way ?you see what i mean ? some times you have to believe the words and letters the way they are ,because their are complete the way they are, Pierre

Terricca……….. THE CHRISTOS (DID) COME FROM HEAVEN, but Jesus did not come from heaven he came through a human berth process as a 100% pure human being, He then after that recieved the Christos (anointing) of Holy Spirit from GOD the FATHER So the Christos was GOD (IN) him and was from above, but the Man Jesus was simply a human being who recieved the LOGOS into him This is how the FATHER was (IN HIM)> BY his LOGOS or HOLY SPIRIT. Simple if you understand it right. Remember, “the father (IN) me (HE) does the WORKS”> So when are you going to start to believe that the FATHER GOD was truly (IN) Jesus Pierre?

peace and love……………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,22:52)

He then goes on to speak of heavenly things by saying “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.” I ask you to judge for yourself if Jesus was speaking of his physical body or the Holy Spirit within him as a heavenly thing.

So now the Holy Spirit IS the Son of Man? Oh brother!

[Pastry]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2011,02:24)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,22:52) He then goes on to speak of heavenly things by saying “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.” I ask you to judge for yourself if Jesus was speaking of his physical body or the Holy Spirit within him as a heavenly thing. So now the Holy Spirit IS the Son of Man?     Oh brother!

Yah, interesting…. not disgusting…. and that is the truth according to Kerwin and Ed…..Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

MIke……….The Holy Spirit that was in Jesus is the eyes of GOD Want proof?, Rev 3:1 And unto the Angel of the Church in Sardis write; these things saith he that has the seven spirit of GOD.……>

And again…> Rev 4:5….> And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thundering and voices and there were seven lamps of fire (judgments) burning before the throne, which are the seven spirit of God.

And again……> Rev 5:6…> and I beheld and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns (powers) and seven eyes which (ARE) the seven Spirits of GOD sent forth into all the earth.

You people are confusing God's Spirit with the PERSON of JESUS, the word CHRIST or Christos is the Anointing Spirit of GOD it was (IN) Jesus after he recieved it at the Jordan river. that Christos or anointing was GOD the FATHER residing (IN) Jesus' the MANS BODY> When are you going to start to believe that GOD the FATHER was TRULY (IN) JESUS ?.

peace and love…………………………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

MIke……….Something to ponder,”destory this “TEMPLE” and in three days (I) GOD Shall raise it up. And again, here is a good one for you Mike, there are many more.

Luk 13:34…..> O Jerusalem, Jerusalem. which kills the prophets, and stones them that are sent unto you; how often would (I) (GOD) have gathered thy childern together; as a hen does gathers her brood under her wings, and ye would not.

Mike that was (NOT) Jesus Speaking it was GOD the FATHER that was (IN) HIM speaking through him. When are you people going to get it GOD the FATHER was TRULY (IN) JESUS, BY HIS VERY OWN SPIRIT or LOGOS as Paladin so perfectly brought out. When are you going to become like Thomas and say “O I see”, My LORD (Jesus) and MY GOD the FATHER”, who was present (IN) JESUS. IN this regard i give the trinitarians more respect then you Preexistences becasue they at least see GOD PRESENT in JESUS, which you preexistences seem to not be able to see. IMO

peace and love to you and yours mike…………..gene

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2011,21:24)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,22:52) He then goes on to speak of heavenly things by saying “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.” I ask you to judge for yourself if Jesus was speaking of his physical body or the Holy Spirit within him as a heavenly thing. So now the Holy Spirit IS the Son of Man?     Oh brother!

Mike,

So it is your opinion that Jesus was speaking of earthly thing when he stated that he came from heaven.

Please note: The Son of Man and the Son of God are the same person.

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2011,09:22)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2011,07:38) would it not be that Christ came from heaven ?or was Jesus tried to deceit Nicodemus by making up a story ? or was Jesus talking in a allegory way ?you see what i mean ? some times you have to believe the words and letters the way they are ,because their are complete the way they are, Pierre Terricca……….. THE CHRISTOS (DID) COME FROM HEAVEN, but Jesus did not come from heaven he came through a human berth process as a 100% pure human being, He then after that recieved the Christos (anointing) of Holy Spirit from GOD the FATHER So the Christos was GOD (IN) him and was from above, but the Man Jesus was simply a human being who recieved the LOGOS into him This is how the FATHER was (IN HIM)> BY his LOGOS or HOLY SPIRIT. Simple if you understand it right.  Remember, “the father (IN) me (HE) does the WORKS”>  So when are you going to start to believe that the FATHER GOD was truly (IN) Jesus Pierre? peace and love……………………………..gene

gene

you never answer my question ,but now you telling me that Jesus and Christ are not the same person,

and that he received the holy spirit at his baptism right ?

but then what did Gabriel said to Mary ?

you are confused and try to confuse others

Pierre

[terraricca]

Kerwin

Quote

It is not the ideas that are complicated but the point of view necessary to understand them correctly.

what point do you need to understand this;Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

LET SAY THIS ;NO ONE HAS EVER GONE INTO THE HOUSE EXCEPT THE ONE WHO CAME FROM THE HOUSE ;;

do you understand it this way ?better?

if it was you that those words were addressed by Christ ,what would be your understanding,right there ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

I can answer that Pierre. Kerwin would most likely have said:

John 6:42
“Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

They can only come to him if God leads them.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2011,17:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2011,21:24) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,22:52) He then goes on to speak of heavenly things by saying “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.” I ask you to judge for yourself if Jesus was speaking of his physical body or the Holy Spirit within him as a heavenly thing. So now the Holy Spirit IS the Son of Man?     Oh brother! Mike, So it is your opinion that Jesus was speaking of earthly thing when he stated that he came from heaven. Please note: The Son of Man and the Son of God are the same person.

Hi Kerwin,

I don't see an answer to my question in your post.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2011,06:48)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2011,17:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2011,21:24) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2011,22:52) He then goes on to speak of heavenly things by saying “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.” I ask you to judge for yourself if Jesus was speaking of his physical body or the Holy Spirit within him as a heavenly thing. So now the Holy Spirit IS the Son of Man?     Oh brother! Mike, So it is your opinion that Jesus was speaking of earthly thing when he stated that he came from heaven. Please note: The Son of Man and the Son of God are the same person. Hi Kerwin, I don't see an answer to my question in your post.

Mike,

I have not had the time yet. I will try to get back with you if God so wills.

[kerwin]

Pierre,

Quote

this was the real Christ that came down from heaven. the flesh is the box

I also believe the soul which is made of spirit comes from heaven for it is written that God breathed the soul into Adam and the soul which is made of spirit matter gave his body life.

Quote

the question is not the flesh but the soul what is spirit

I was not speaking of the soul which is called spirit because it is made of spirit matter.  I was speaking of the seat of a person’s character which spirit because it cannot be seen.  The seat of character that comes from above is one that is righteous and holy as is God’s.  Jesus constantly has such a seat of character.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2011,06:47)

I can answer that Pierre.  Kerwin would most likely have said: John 6:42 “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” They can only come to him if God leads them.

Mike,

You should read more of what he taught to those disciples.

Quote

John 6 New International Version (NIV) 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

I have been making a point of quoting “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing” for Pierre's benefit.  He just happened to quote those after stating “Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before”.

Your focus seems to be on the body and not the spirit just as those in John 6:42 were as they should have known it is not where his body comes from that is important but where his spirit does.

[Pastry]

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 19 2011,22:14)

Quote We agree that Colossians 1:18 is speaking of the new creation. But I wish to direct your attention to verse 17 and ask you if you believe that all the old creation holds together in Christ Jesus especially since the purpose of the new covenant, according to verse 18, is that in all things Jesus the Son of God might have supremacy. Kerwin!  Yes, is the answer, but that does not explain what soever John 1:14 where it says that The Word of God who was with God BTW as the only begotten of the Father… Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.   THIS IS THE WORD OF GOD, WHO WAS WITH GOD Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.   THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER….. HE WAS THERE WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING.   HE DID NOT BECOME A BEING WHEN HE BECAME A MAN…. HE WAS THERE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS AND THIOS SCRIPTURE ALSO PROOFS IT…… Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.   Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with there before the world was. You see what you are doing your putting your own twist with those Scriptures, it has nothing to do with Gods Holy Spirit, and all with THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER WHO BECAME JESUS…….. Lets go this far, and then we will go with the rest that You did not address, that is who is the firstborn of all creation….Col. 1:15, Rev. 3:14 Peace Irene

Kerwin! First you have not answered this post I made to you…. I know you like to just forget about what Jesus said….. Who is the only begotten of the Father in Jiohn 1:14…. That question you did not address yet…. You seem to tip toe around so many Scriptures…. with Mike and Pierre. Never really answering the question, that I can see….Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2011,11:18)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2011,09:22) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2011,07:38) would it not be that Christ came from heaven ?or was Jesus tried to deceit Nicodemus by making up a story ? or was Jesus talking in a allegory way ?you see what i mean ? some times you have to believe the words and letters the way they are ,because their are complete the way they are, Pierre Terricca……….. THE CHRISTOS (DID) COME FROM HEAVEN, but Jesus did not come from heaven he came through a human berth process as a 100% pure human being, He then after that recieved the Christos (anointing) of Holy Spirit from GOD the FATHER So the Christos was GOD (IN) him and was from above, but the Man Jesus was simply a human being who recieved the LOGOS into him This is how the FATHER was (IN HIM)> BY his LOGOS or HOLY SPIRIT. Simple if you understand it right.  Remember, “the father (IN) me (HE) does the WORKS”>  So when are you going to start to believe that the FATHER GOD was truly (IN) Jesus Pierre? peace and love……………………………..gene gene you never answer my question ,but now you telling me that Jesus and Christ are not the same person, and that he received the holy spirit at his baptism right ? but then what did Gabriel said to Mary ? you are confused and try to confuse others Pierre

Terricca………….If you have a good Greek translation look up the word Christ and come and tell us what it means , you will also find that most of the time scripture should render it as Jesus (THE) CHRISTOS, or better Jesus the Anointed one or Messiah. Which also means Anointed ONE. In fact there is confusion even over that word as Paul used it , for instance where it say Christ (IN) YOU , that is saying the anointing in you, not the person Jesus. And where it say “Christos was the rock following Israel in the wilderness, that was not saying Jesus was following Israel in the wilderness but the anointing Spirit of GOD was.

Terricca no one is trying to confuse you here, you are already confused enough by yourself and your comrades here. IMO

peace and love………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2011,01:07)

Mike, You should read more of what he taught to those disciples. Quote John 6 New International Version (NIV) 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” I have been making a point of quoting “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing” for Pierre's benefit.  He just happened to quote those after stating “Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before”. Your focus seems to be on the body and not the spirit just as those in John 6:42 were as they should have known it is not where his body comes from that is important but where his spirit does.

Hi Kerwin,

What point are you trying to make? It often seems to me that you speak in riddles without ever really stating just what it is you believe.

If you are saying that the spirit BEING Jesus was made flesh, and that only the spirit BEING Jesus came from heaven, as opposed to the flesh body he was “boxed” in on earth, then I can go along with that.

So…………….IS that what you are saying? Because flesh or not, it was definitely the BEING of Jesus, complete with the memories of his pre-existence, who came down from heaven, and later ascended to where he was before.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2011,05:24)

In fact there is confusion even over that word as Paul used it , for instance where it say Christ (IN) YOU , that is saying the anointing in you, not the person Jesus.

Actually Gene,

Having Christ in you has the same meaning as having God in you.  Just like God Himself didn't literally dwell inside the flesh body of Jesus, the person Jesus does not literally dwell inside of any of our flesh bodies.

It's interesting that you can understand that it is not the person Jesus who is literally inside of us, but you can't understand that same principle when God was said to have been “in Christ doing the works”.

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

MIke…….Wrong,  God the FATHER Did Reilly (INDWELL) Jesus,  You and your colleges problem is you don't believe Jesus when He said the “FATHER WAS (IN) HIM”. GOD is not a Physical Person but a Spirit and most definitely can indwell us as well as he did Jesus. God considers our Bodies as temples he can indwell, or don't you believe Paul when he said “Know you not that your “BODIES” are the “TEMPLES” of the living GOD. Jesus is not a Spirit person but a Physical one exactly as we are,  GOD the FATHER is NOT Physical, he is Spirit and can live vicariously (IN) and (THROUGH) His creation.

You people believe Satan and his demons  can live (IN) a Person and control him, but can't except that GOD who is also Spirit can live and control a persons mind.  What about where it say “that God may be all and (IN) all”.  Mike GOD the FATHER was literally in Jesus speaking  directly through him to us Don't believe me just believe what Jesus said ” the father (IN) me (HE) does the works”, it amazes me how you people on the one hand say you believe Jesus and on the other reject his words. IMO

peace and love…………………………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2011,09:31)

MIke…….Wrong,  God the FATHER Did Reilly (INDWELL) Jesus,  You and your colleges problem is you don't believe Jesus when He said the “FATHER WAS (IN) HIM”.

Hmmm………………your own words just said:

Quote

for instance where it say Christ (IN) YOU , that is saying the anointing in you, not the person Jesus.

Jesus is also now a spirit being, Gene………….just like his God.  So explain to me how the spirit being God was LITERALLY inside of Jesus, but the spirit being Jesus is NOT LITERALLY inside of the believers.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2011,09:31)

You people believe Satan and his demons  can live (IN) a Person and control him, but can't except that GOD who is also Spirit can live and control a persons mind.

How many demons dwelled in MORE THAN ONE person at the same time?  See Gene, if the entire being of God is literally living inside me, then He is not literally living inside you at the same time.

You are right about the PERSON of Jesus not living inside human beings, for Jesus dwells in heaven.  Now you just need to apply that EXACT SAME reasoning to God.

You're half way home, brother.  

mike

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