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Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 05 2011,03:41) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 05 2011,03:16) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,16:12) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 03 2011,09:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,14:27) I'm not going to let you slink away from this, Marty. My DOG was born, and is also a creation of God.
So why couldn't Jesus have been born, and also be a creation of his God? You know, he's not only called “the firstborn of every creature”, but he also calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”.
He was begotten, born, created, brought forth. Do you suppose these words contradict each other? If so, why?
Let me slink away. Mike that is very funny. Why can't you just acknowledge that you made a mistake. Jesus was not the first creature created by God. He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.He is the beginning of the “new creation of God”. You know, like if any man be in Christ, “he is a new creature”.
Quote 1.2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2.Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.Colossians 1
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Your dog was not the “first dog created by God” and “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,It sounds like you might be onto something with “Jesus was not the first creature created by God. He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.” but I missed some of your reasoning.
Hi Kerwin:Esentially, Adam and Eve were created. All of the rest of humanity, except for Jesus, were born of the sperm of man.
Jesus was the first man to ever be conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman. And he was the first man to be born again by being raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Jesus was not “born again” Marty. He went down to sheol and was raised up from sheol. Sheol was the waiting place of the departed for the resurrection.Jack
Hi Jack:This is where I get my understanding:
Quote Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Quote Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Quote Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Quote Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Quote Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Quote Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty!
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
What does this Scripture tell you? Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren…. you can't get away from that….. We are called to understand more then anyone else….. even though we grow on a different level….one day soon when Jesus returns, we will only know the truth….to that day I am forever looking forward to….
All other Scriptures you gave deal with Col, 1:18 and not Col. 1:15-16…. and Rev. 3:14 and John 1:1…….Peace and Love IreneQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2011,08:37) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:09) Colossians 1
King James Version (KJV)13 who(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrunitys, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) should all fulness dwell;
Hi Kerwin,Thanks for the mock-up. Now we can easily address some things.
13 For THE UNITY WHO DIRECTLY UNIFIED WITH GOD THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
So the UNITY has a Son of its own? Who is that Son?
Let's start there.
peace,
mike
Mike,That was an error that I did not catch. Sorry to confuse you like that. I did not mean to insert the comment “w directly unified with God through the Spirit of God”at that point.
God is part of the unity but each part its own role just like each part of the body does.
God the Father of all elements in the union is in all and all are in him.
In what way are those that believe in the Son in God?
In what way is God in those that believe in the Son?
Hi Kerwin,I'm not the one who is confused here.
I know exactly what this passage teaches. And it's really quite simple if you just shut your OWN thoughts down for a minute and read the words as they are written.You say you put the wrong thing in verse 13? Okay. Put the right thing in there then and we'll continue. Or would you rather I move onto verse 14 as you have it written?
As to your questions, the answer to both is: Through Spirit.
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 04 2011,09:59) Quote And since Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of this “new creation of God”, do those words mean that Jesus was the FIRST CREATURE EVER to be a part of this “new creation of God”? YES or NO? Yes
Love in Christ,
Marty
Okay Marty,Now we're getting somewhere. You've agreed that “FIRSTBORN OF THE NEW CREATION” would mean Jesus was the first creature who ever existed within this group.
So then you MUST also agree that “FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION” means Jesus was the first creature who ever existed within this group.
There are no two ways about it. You seem to have hemmed yourself in, Marty. I beg you to just accept what your own words have concluded instead of trying to make the scriptures out to be lies just to fulfill your OWN wishes.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2011,09:20) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2011,08:37) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:09) Colossians 1
King James Version (KJV)13 who(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrunitys, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) should all fulness dwell;
Hi Kerwin,Thanks for the mock-up. Now we can easily address some things.
13 For THE UNITY WHO DIRECTLY UNIFIED WITH GOD THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
So the UNITY has a Son of its own? Who is that Son?
Let's start there.
peace,
mike
Mike,That was an error that I did not catch. Sorry to confuse you like that. I did not mean to insert the comment “w directly unified with God through the Spirit of God”at that point.
God is part of the unity but each part its own role just like each part of the body does.
God the Father of all elements in the union is in all and all are in him.
In what way are those that believe in the Son in God?
In what way is God in those that believe in the Son?
Hi Kerwin,I'm not the one who is confused here.
I know exactly what this passage teaches. And it's really quite simple if you just shut your OWN thoughts down for a minute and read the words as they are written.You say you put the wrong thing in verse 13? Okay. Put the right thing in there then and we'll continue. Or would you rather I move onto verse 14 as you have it written?
As to your questions, the answer to both is: Through Spirit.
Mike,You are putting your own thoughts into scripture if you do not know that the human being Jesus was united with the Spirit of God.
Quote Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
And that God is united with him through that same Spirit.
Quote Ephesians 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
And that it is only through Jesus those that believe are united with God through the same spirit.
Quote John 14:6 King James Version (KJV)
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If you not disagree with those three issues then you know that the Son of God is the one that God dwells in through his spirit just as I do. If you do then please let me know and why.
If you agree then the only disagreement we have is whether or not the Son of God is Jesus or Jesus united with the Spirit of God . If the later whether Jesus can be credited with the work done by the Spirit of God done without him.
You also made an argument to absurdity which aplied the indirect of believers to the same scripture that are used for the direct union of the Son of God. My counter was that each part of the union of the Spirit is assigned a place by God. I quoted scripture to show that is the case. I also early quoted Hebrews which stated that Jesus was given a name above every other name.
Since this is how the conversation stands I do not see how coing through the scripture line for line is beneficial for understanding who Jesus is at least until we have resolved the groundwork I mention above.
Edited to remove unneeded formating.
Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 05 2011,00:33) Quote
I believe there are some scriptures that some believe infer that Jesus a Spirit being but I do not see them the same way. At this moment that is a distraction from the issue of whether you agree that Jesus is a son of God's spirit?
Kerwin! Jesus is the firstborn of ALL CREATION. That means that He existed before even the earth or time or anything was. After that God through Jesus created all.
That is were you and others go wrong…..
He was in the form of God. What form is God? He is a Spirit Being.
Phill. 2 the first few verses talk about the love of Christ and that we should be like minded also. Then
it explains what Jesus was inPhl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
The form of God, that is a Spirit Being…. Then He
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
HE WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN……That tells us He gave up being in the likeness of God and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN.
Many here read this the wrong way. When you a Baker and then become a Truck driver, you give up being a Baker…..
That all fits with Jesus being the firstborn of all creation.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
What is the glory Jesus had with His father before the world was? I let you answer that….
Irene
Irene,From what you write I am beginning to believe we disagree about that meanings of these scriptures.
Quote John 4:24 King James Version (KJV)
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Quote John 1 King James Version (KJV)
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Quote Romans 8:15 King James Version (KJV)
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
To make sure we agree then will you please explain 1) How to worship God in the same spirit he is. 2) What part of those that believe are born of God. 3) What kind of Spirit do those that believe recieve from God. Thank you!
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2011,22:46) Since this is how the conversation stands I do not see how coing through the scripture line for line is beneficial for understanding who Jesus is at least until we have resolved the groundwork I mention above.
You don't have to know right now, Kerwin. I know the outcome. And if you would do it, then your own words would show your own confusion – just like they did with the very first verse I attacked. Right off the bat you had to start hemming and hawing.It will be no different throughout the passage. And that is EXACTLY what I want you to see with your own eyes reading your own words.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2011,11:13) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2011,22:46) Since this is how the conversation stands I do not see how going through the scripture line for line is beneficial for understanding who Jesus is at least until we have resolved the groundwork I mention above.
You don't have to know right now, Kerwin. I know the outcome. And if you would do it, then your own words would show your own confusion – just like they did with the very first verse I attacked. Right off the bat you had to start hemming and hawing.It will be no different throughout the passage. And that is EXACTLY what I want you to see with your own eyes reading your own words.
peace,
mike
Mike,If any statement is true of the Son of God then is is true of the unity between Jesus and God through the Spirit of God because they are one and the same. Such is not worth debating as we should agree on that.
You believe Jesus is a spirit being that stopped being a spirit being for 30+ yearrs and then picked up being a spirit being one more. In the meantime you believe you believe he was a human being. I believe that the preexistent Spirit of God the first born of all creation through which all things were made and are made united with the human being Jesus the Son of David and the two became the Son of God in such a way that when you refer to the Son of God you can either be referring to the Spirit of God and or Jesus in accordance with God's command.
Both ideas fit the scripture from Colossians.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 04 2011,22:41) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 05 2011,03:16) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,16:12) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 03 2011,09:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,14:27) I'm not going to let you slink away from this, Marty. My DOG was born, and is also a creation of God.
So why couldn't Jesus have been born, and also be a creation of his God? You know, he's not only called “the firstborn of every creature”, but he also calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”.
He was begotten, born, created, brought forth. Do you suppose these words contradict each other? If so, why?
Let me slink away. Mike that is very funny. Why can't you just acknowledge that you made a mistake. Jesus was not the first creature created by God. He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.He is the beginning of the “new creation of God”. You know, like if any man be in Christ, “he is a new creature”.
Quote 1.2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2.Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.Colossians 1
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Your dog was not the “first dog created by God” and “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,It sounds like you might be onto something with “Jesus was not the first creature created by God. He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.” but I missed some of your reasoning.
Hi Kerwin:Esentially, Adam and Eve were created. All of the rest of humanity, except for Jesus, were born of the sperm of man.
Jesus was the first man to ever be conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman. And he was the first man to be born again by being raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Jesus was not “born again” Marty. He went down to sheol and was raised up from sheol. Sheol was the waiting place of the departed for the resurrection.Jack
Jack,Being resurected from the dead is the same as being born from the dead. Since it is the secound time one is born it is called a rebirth but it is not a rebirth of spirit.
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 04 2011,22:16) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,16:12) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 03 2011,09:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,14:27) I'm not going to let you slink away from this, Marty. My DOG was born, and is also a creation of God.
So why couldn't Jesus have been born, and also be a creation of his God? You know, he's not only called “the firstborn of every creature”, but he also calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”.
He was begotten, born, created, brought forth. Do you suppose these words contradict each other? If so, why?
Let me slink away. Mike that is very funny. Why can't you just acknowledge that you made a mistake. Jesus was not the first creature created by God. He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.He is the beginning of the “new creation of God”. You know, like if any man be in Christ, “he is a new creature”.
Quote 1.2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2.Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.Colossians 1
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Your dog was not the “first dog created by God” and “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,It sounds like you might be onto something with “Jesus was not the first creature created by God. He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.” but I missed some of your reasoning.
Hi Kerwin:Esentially, Adam and Eve were created. All of the rest of humanity, except for Jesus, were born of the sperm of man.
Jesus was the first man to ever be conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman. And he was the first man to be born again by being raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,According to what has been revealed to me from scripture Jesus is the firstborn (pioneer) of the new creation because the spirit of God united with him before he could be tempted of the Devil. That union made him the firstborn of the new creation. Through his death, resurrrection and ascention those that believe would later become the first fruits of that creation and in time all the rest will follow.
That seems to differ from what you wrote.
Quote
John 1King James Version (KJV)
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Quote
Romans 8:15King James Version (KJV)
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Kerwin! What do these Scripture have to do with what I said??? Nothing….
This is the preexisting tread, and that is what we are discussing….
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
The Word of God, who became Jesus was in the form of God…… And then was made into the likeness of men……
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Do you see that?
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Jesus is THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION…
and then God created all through Jesus
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
and Jesus also is the firstborn of the death in
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2011,19:34) According to what has been revealed to me from scripture Jesus is the firstborn (pioneer) of the new creation because the spirit of God united with him before he could be tempted of the Devil. That union made him the firstborn of the new creation. Through his death, resurrrection and ascention those that believe would later become the first fruits of that creation and in time all the rest will follow. That seems to differ from what you wrote.
Kerwin…………You have it right. But “PREEXISTENCES” can't see nor understand that becasue they have shut their minds to that possibility by the false theologies they have bought into hook line and sinker. They are Separatists and will always continue to separate Jesus from our exact identity with him, as a SON OF MAN. IMOpeace and love……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 06 2011,00:58) Kerwin…………You have it right. But “PREEXISTENCES” can't see nor understand that becasue they have shut their minds to that possibility
What you call “PREEXISTENCES” is really just people with faith who believe verses like this:“Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,”
And this:
“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
It is clear that we believe these verses and you do not.
That is the difference. Calling us “PREEXISTENCES” because we believe these and other versus is a bit silly.
Just call us believers because we believe that which is written.
Irene,
What a son of God is, is important to preexistent because you seem to believe that Jesus is the physical son of God. That is clearly not so as God is spirit and Jesus is the primary son of his spirit and not of his body (as if he had one).
John 4:24, John 1:12-13, and Romans 8:15 all show what a son of God is. You should already realize that human beings who are born of God’s spirit are not born of God’s body and yet 2 Peter 1:4 states that they partake of the divine nature of God. So why would you conclude that Jesus, who scripture states is a human being, that is in the form of God , partake of any other characterics of God’s form than those that follow him especially since he is the pioneer and finisher of their faith.
If one partakes of the divine nature then they will make themselves of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant humbling themselves even to the point of becoming obedient to death even a long and torturous death.
As for Jesus made in the form of a man and being found and being found as a human being that is written in more detail in Hebrews 2:14-18.
You cite other scripture but until you know that Jesus was righteous in form and God sires righteous children through him I see little reason to address them. When you know that then you will begin to know that Jesus is the Son of God spirit and not of his body.
T8,
I do not believe you correctly understand the scriptures you cite and so I do not believe you understand what is true.
When I see scriptures that Jesus is the son of Abraham, David, and Mary then it becomes obvious that he did not exist before they did and so I am convinced those that believe in preexistence do not properly believe is passages such as Matthew 1:1 and Luke 1:31. When there words also seem to show that they believe Jesus is the Son of God’s body then I do not believe they properly understand scriptures such as Philippians 2:6, 2 Peter 1:4, and Romans 8:15 as well as many more.
So we believe different things about the same scriptures. It is up to each of us to seek God’s leadership in determining what the true message of scripture is and God will judge us.
Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 04 2011,02:32) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,15:54) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 01 2011,12:50) Kerwin Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
These Scriptures show three things. First it shows that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and then the firstborn of the death. He is the head of the Church….so He may have preeminence…..
God also created all through Jesus. Col. 1:16 and John 1:3Peace and Love Irene
Irene,Jesus is the natural Son of God's spirit and not the Son of God's physical side as God has no physical side.
As the Son he is the one God chose to have his fullness dwell in by the Spirit of Christ. Even angels were not glorified to that extend as God instructed angels to subject themselves to Jesus the Anointed.
Kerwin! you seem to me confused to what Christ Jesus is and was. Firs He was a Spirit Being and was with His Father before the world was created. Then through Jesus God created all. In Phil 2 it says He was in the form of God and emptied Himself and became a man. He is both Son of God and Son of man. I gave you all those Scriptures for my understand of the truth….
Peace and Love Irene
No Kerwin! Jesus is and was the Son of God and Son of man. He was a Spirit Being first, before He became a man.Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
He was in the form of God. God is a Spirit Being and so was Jesus.
And then He was made in the likeness of men….Then He went back to the glory He had with His Father..He is seated at the right hand of His Father…..He will come again as The Word of God..He will smite the nations with the wrath of God and set all straight…only the truth will finally be taught..by Jesus and the Saints….
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
That is what Scriptures say….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2011,02:18) You believe Jesus is a spirit being that stopped being a spirit being for 30+ yearrs and then picked up being a spirit being one more. In the meantime you believe you believe he was a human being. I believe that the preexistent Spirit of God the first born of all creation through which all things were made and are made united with the human being Jesus the Son of David and the two became the Son of God in such a way that when you refer to the Son of God you can either be referring to the Spirit of God and or Jesus in accordance with God's command. Both ideas fit the scripture from Colossians.
Hi Kerwin,You have summed up both of our understandings accurately enough. But your last sentence in the post is inaccurate.
In fact, what YOU are doing is the same exact thing Kathi has been doing with “Jehovah”. In order to fulfill her own imagined doctrine, she has decided that SHE will tell us when “Jehovah” refers only to the Father, or when it refers to the “compound unity” of the Father and Son.
And now will YOU presume to tell us when “Son of God” refers to Jesus, or the Spirit of God, or to some “compound unity” of Jesus AND the Spirit of God?
What I already know is that your theory doesn't hold water, and will be easily dismissed if we continue the Col 1 passage like we started.
Here, we can go on verse at a time:
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,Kerwin, WHO did the rescuing? And who is the Son that He loves?
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2011,23:18) When I see scriptures that Jesus is the son of Abraham, David, and Mary then it becomes obvious that he did not exist before they did and so I am convinced those that believe in preexistence do not properly believe is passages such as Matthew 1:1 and Luke 1:31.
Hi Kerwin,And the Pharisees also thought the same as you and Gene and Marty do. They also thought that the Messiah would ONLY be FROM Abraham and David.
That's why Jesus explained their misunderstanding to them in Matthew 22:41-46 and in John 8:58.
See Kerwin? Jesus was trying his best to teach them, AND US, the truth of the matter. They were unable to get his drift…………….and so, it seems, are you guys.
peace,
mikeQuote (t8 @ Aug. 06 2011,12:34) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 06 2011,00:58) Kerwin…………You have it right. But “PREEXISTENCES” can't see nor understand that becasue they have shut their minds to that possibility
What you call “PREEXISTENCES” is really just people with faith who believe verses like this:“Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,”
And this:
“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
It is clear that we believe these verses and you do not.
That is the difference. Calling us “PREEXISTENCES” because we believe these and other versus is a bit silly.
Just call us believers because we believe that which is written.
T8………Truth is you believe your renditions of what you “Believe it is saying”, but to just produce ONE Scripture the Specifically say that , now that is another thing RIGHT? Why is it that such an “IMPORTANT” subject as Jesus “PREEXISTENCE” Is not “CLEARLY” expounded or for that Matter not even Thoroughly discussed in Scriptures? Please show me on scripture or sentence that even uses the word “PREEXISTENCE” IN it at all, Concerning Jesus Past life before he was born on this earth. And while you are at it please show us any activity of his Preexistence , again not some scripture you can force the text to mean what you want it to. IMOpeace and love ……………………………………..gene
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