Preexistence

[terraricca]

Marty

were are you,I am waiting for your respond,

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2011,02:19)

Quote (942767 @ July 06 2011,19:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2011,13:12) Quote (942767 @ July 04 2011,18:59) Hbr 1:10   And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:   Here in verse 10 above God is speaking to His Son telling him that he “founded” the heavens and the earth in the beginning This is Paul speaking of God………..not Jesus.  But even if you were right, and it was Jesus who laid the foundations of the earth, then Jesus would have had to BEEN THERE in order to do that. So I don't get what you're trying to say, because you are making OUR case for us.   The scriptures that I quoted from Hebrews show God speaking to His Son telling him, “And thou Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth…”, and no, I am not making your case for you. Hi Marty I am glad that you believe it is the Father speaking to Jesus in Hebrews 1:10 for the context says you are right. However, you say the Father God told the Son that “he laid the foundation of the earth” but then you say he wasn't there to do it?  BTW you only quoted part of the verse… And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning “hast laid the foundation of the earth”; and “the heavens are the works of thine hands“: Heb 1:10 So you want us to believe the Father God told Jesus that “he laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens were the work of Jesus hands”, but Jesus hands wasn't there to do it? Man I guess this is proof that people can make the scriptures say whatever they want. WJ

Hi Keith:

I have already been over this with you.

The literal translation of Hebrews 1:10 is:

And, you Lord, founded the earth at (the) beginning, and the heavens are works of your hands.

The definition of the word “founded” according to Strong's condordance is: “to lay the basis for”.  Jesus is the “basis for the whole of creation”.  The scriptures state that God made all things by him and for him and without him was nothing made that was made.

But it was God who is the creator.  And Hebrews 1 states:

Quote

Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,   Hbr 1:2   Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he(God) made the worlds;   Hbr 1:3   Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

And Genesis 1 states:

Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In Job God poses these questions to Job:

Job 38:2   Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?  

Job 38:3   Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.  

Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

And why, if Jesus was there with God in the beginning, would God be telling him that he founded the earth in the beginning?  He would already have known this, would he not?

When someone is going to build a house.  He starts with a plan.  He already knows or can envision what the finished product will be, although it does not physically exist as the finished product.  God's plan for this world was to make man in his own image, and the earth and the heavens were founded with the finished product in mind.  Jesus is the last Adam who is the express image of God's person.  It was through Jesus that God's plan for this world would be fulfilled.

Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  

Rom 8:30   Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.  

1Pe 1:18   Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as]silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;  

1Pe 1:19   But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:  

1Pe 1:20   Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. And why, if Jesus was there with God in the beginning, would God be telling him that he founded the earth in the beginning? He would already have known this, would he not?

are you mixing up Christ with JOB ?

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2011,12:28)

Marty Quote Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. And why, if Jesus was there with God in the beginning, would God be telling him that he founded the earth in the beginning?  He would already have known this, would he not? are you mixing up Christ with JOB ? Pierre

No, Pierre:

I have used this verse to show that God said that “HE” laid the foundation of the earth. It was God speaking to Job.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 08 2011,19:34)

Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2011,12:28) Marty Quote Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. And why, if Jesus was there with God in the beginning, would God be telling him that he founded the earth in the beginning?  He would already have known this, would he not? are you mixing up Christ with JOB ? Pierre No, Pierre: I have used this verse to show that God said that “HE” laid the foundation of the earth.  It was God speaking to Job. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

it does not make any difference God will and remain the creator ,Christ was the tool that god used to create all other things,
Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I (Christ)was the craftsman at his side.

look verse 30

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2011,12:37)

Quote (942767 @ July 08 2011,19:34) Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2011,12:28) Marty Quote Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. And why, if Jesus was there with God in the beginning, would God be telling him that he founded the earth in the beginning?  He would already have known this, would he not? are you mixing up Christ with JOB ? Pierre No, Pierre: I have used this verse to show that God said that “HE” laid the foundation of the earth.  It was God speaking to Job. Love in Christ, Marty Marty it does not make any difference God will and remain the creator ,Christ was the tool that god used to create all other things, Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Pr 8:30 Then I (Christ)was the craftsman at his side. look verse 30 Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Please read my post in response to WJ:

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

Terricca………..Your quote is about Wisdom a Spirit is a attribute of GOD, not about Jesus at all, Inserting the word Christ there is forcing the text it is just not true nor right for you or anyone else to do that Pierre. If Jesus were the wisdom (OF) GOD then Jesus would be superior to GOD right?

Pro 7:4…..> Say unto wisdom,thou art “MY SISTER” and call understanding thy kinswoman.

Pro 9:1…..> Wisdom has built “HER” house, (SHE) has hewn out (HER) Seven Pillars. These are the Seven Sprits of GOD Pierre.

SEEMS YOU HAVE A PROBLEM SCRIPTURE CALLS WISDOM A sister ( that is a woman) Jesus i believe was a Man right?

Wisdom is being Personified like it is a person when in fact it is an attribute of GOD and Can be an attribute of us also, it has nothing to do with being THE MAN Jesus, even though Jesus did have wisdom (IN) him that is obvious. IMO

peace and love……………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Hi Marty,

Were you going to address my last post on this thread? Or should I just be waiting for the time that you finally find a scripture that actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing?

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 08 2011,19:34)

Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2011,12:28) Marty Quote Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. And why, if Jesus was there with God in the beginning, would God be telling him that he founded the earth in the beginning?  He would already have known this, would he not? are you mixing up Christ with JOB ? Pierre No, Pierre: I have used this verse to show that God said that “HE” laid the foundation of the earth.  It was God speaking to Job. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

yes you are right God is the creator .

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,

Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day

Christ was there all of the time

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 09 2011,16:02)

Terricca………..Your quote is about Wisdom a Spirit is a attribute of GOD, not about Jesus at all, Inserting the word Christ there is forcing the text it is just not true nor right for you or anyone else to do that Pierre.  If Jesus were the wisdom (OF) GOD then Jesus would be superior to GOD right? Pro 7:4…..> Say unto wisdom,thou art “MY SISTER” and call understanding thy kinswoman. Pro 9:1…..> Wisdom has built “HER” house, (SHE) has hewn out (HER) Seven Pillars. These are the Seven Sprits of GOD Pierre. SEEMS YOU HAVE A PROBLEM SCRIPTURE CALLS WISDOM A sister ( that is a woman) Jesus i believe was a Man right? Wisdom is being Personified like it is a person when in fact it is an attribute of GOD and Can be an attribute of us also, it has nothing to do with being THE MAN  Jesus, even though Jesus did have wisdom (IN) him that is obvious. IMO peace and love……………………………………..gene

gene

so wisdom is also a craftsman ?

Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

and is beside God when he created ?so ???rejoicing?
delighting in mankind????

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 09 2011,08:41)

Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2011,12:37) Quote (942767 @ July 08 2011,19:34) Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2011,12:28) Marty Quote Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. And why, if Jesus was there with God in the beginning, would God be telling him that he founded the earth in the beginning?  He would already have known this, would he not? are you mixing up Christ with JOB ? Pierre No, Pierre: I have used this verse to show that God said that “HE” laid the foundation of the earth.  It was God speaking to Job. Love in Christ, Marty Marty it does not make any difference God will and remain the creator ,Christ was the tool that god used to create all other things, Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Pr 8:30 Then I (Christ)was the craftsman at his side. look verse 30 Pierre Hi Pierre: Please read my post in response to WJ: Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

where ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ July 09 2011,13:04)

gene so wisdom is also a craftsman ?

Also for Gene:

Was God without wisdom before He created it as the first of His works? Or is “wisdom” a metaphor for something or someone else God created?

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2011,06:06)

Quote (942767 @ July 09 2011,08:41) Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2011,12:37) Quote (942767 @ July 08 2011,19:34) Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2011,12:28) Marty Quote Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. And why, if Jesus was there with God in the beginning, would God be telling him that he founded the earth in the beginning?  He would already have known this, would he not? are you mixing up Christ with JOB ? Pierre No, Pierre: I have used this verse to show that God said that “HE” laid the foundation of the earth.  It was God speaking to Job. Love in Christ, Marty Marty it does not make any difference God will and remain the creator ,Christ was the tool that god used to create all other things, Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Pr 8:30 Then I (Christ)was the craftsman at his side. look verse 30 Pierre Hi Pierre: Please read my post in response to WJ: Love in Christ, Marty Marty where ? Pierre

Hi Pierre:

My post to WJ is on this page:

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=960

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 08 2011,19:16)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2011,02:19) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2011,19:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2011,13:12) Quote (942767 @ July 04 2011,18:59) Hbr 1:10   And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:   Here in verse 10 above God is speaking to His Son telling him that he “founded” the heavens and the earth in the beginning This is Paul speaking of God………..not Jesus.  But even if you were right, and it was Jesus who laid the foundations of the earth, then Jesus would have had to BEEN THERE in order to do that. So I don't get what you're trying to say, because you are making OUR case for us.   The scriptures that I quoted from Hebrews show God speaking to His Son telling him, “And thou Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth…”, and no, I am not making your case for you. Hi Marty I am glad that you believe it is the Father speaking to Jesus in Hebrews 1:10 for the context says you are right. However, you say the Father God told the Son that “he laid the foundation of the earth” but then you say he wasn't there to do it?  BTW you only quoted part of the verse… And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning “hast laid the foundation of the earth”; and “the heavens are the works of thine hands“: Heb 1:10 So you want us to believe the Father God told Jesus that “he laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens were the work of Jesus hands”, but Jesus hands wasn't there to do it? Man I guess this is proof that people can make the scriptures say whatever they want. WJ Hi Keith: I have already been over this with you. The literal translation of Hebrews 1:10 is: And, you Lord, founded the earth at (the) beginning, and the heavens are works of your hands. The definition of the word “founded” according to Strong's condordance is: “to lay the basis for”.  Jesus is the “basis for the whole of creation”.  The scriptures state that God made all things by him and for him and without him was nothing made that was made. But it was God who is the creator.  And Hebrews 1 states: Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,   Hbr 1:2   Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he(God) made the worlds;   Hbr 1:3   Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; And Genesis 1 states: Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. In Job God poses these questions to Job: Job 38:2   Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?   Job 38:3   Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.   Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. And why, if Jesus was there with God in the beginning, would God be telling him that he founded the earth in the beginning?  He would already have known this, would he not? When someone is going to build a house.  He starts with a plan.  He already knows or can envision what the finished product will be, although it does not physically exist as the finished product.  God's plan for this world was to make man in his own image, and the earth and the heavens were founded with the finished product in mind.  Jesus is the last Adam who is the express image of God's person.  It was through Jesus that God's plan for this world would be fulfilled. Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.   Rom 8:30   Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.   1Pe 1:18   Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as]silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;   1Pe 1:19   But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:   1Pe 1:20   Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

I do not see Col 1; -15 -18

so could extend please

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2011,05:46)

Hi Marty, Were you going to address my last post on this thread?  Or should I just be waiting for the time that you finally find a scripture that actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing?

Hi Mike:

The following scripture prohibits Jesus from preexisting as a human being:

Quote

Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

is that includes all angels as well ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 10 2011,10:30)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2011,05:46) Hi Marty, Were you going to address my last post on this thread?  Or should I just be waiting for the time that you finally find a scripture that actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing?   Hi Mike: The following scripture prohibits Jesus from preexisting as a human being: Quote Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Love in Christ, Marty

Oh, I didn't know that Eve was the mother of the myriads of angels. Or of all the plants and animals too.

Get real, Marty.

I'm still waiting for that ONE little scripture.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2011,10:32)

is that includes all angels as well ?

I guess I should have read your post first, Pierre!

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2011,11:21)

Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2011,10:32) is that includes all angels as well ? I guess I should have read your post first, Pierre!

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ July 10 2011,11:30)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2011,05:46) Hi Marty, Were you going to address my last post on this thread?  Or should I just be waiting for the time that you finally find a scripture that actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing?   Hi Mike: The following scripture prohibits Jesus from preexisting as a human being: Quote Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,
You know full well that when we speak of the pre-existence of Jesus, we are not talking about a pre-existent human being but a pre-existent spirit being…right? The pre-existent spirit being becomes also flesh, as a human being, but wasn't always flesh.

Kathi

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