Preexistence

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ June 29 2011,19:47)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,04:08)

Hi Marty,

This discussion is better suited to the “What is a soul?” thread. While the word “nephesh” is commonly used to refer to the entire human being, it is also clear that a “soul” is somthing other than the body. Jesus said not to fear those who could ONLY kill the body and not the soul, but there are many other scriptures that make the distinction.

So yes, Jesus could have had a soul before being made in the likeness of a human being, as God and the angels also have souls.

Now, will you finally answer MY question? I've capped and underlined it for emphasis in my last post. Will you ever address it?

mike

Hi Mike:

You said that he came down from heaven, and that is what he said, and so, I am just trying to determine just what you think that means.

There is definitely a distinction between the body and the soul. The body without the spirit is dead. The soul is the living person. An infant is a living soul or person with a mind, a will, and emotions. Adam and Eve were living souls in innocence before their fall.

The spirit is the life that a person lives.

Jesus said that the words that he was speaking were spirit and they were life.

Jesus was with the Father in heart of the Father from the beginning. He was foreordained, that is what the scriptures teach, 1 Peter 1. And the spirit, the Words that God was speaking to humanity through Jesus and that same Word that Jesus obeyed unto death on the cross was with God in the beginning. God knew what he would speak to humanity through him, and God knew that Jesus would obey him without sin unto death, and that through him He would reconcile all things unto Himself.

It really is not that difficult to understand. Jesus did not pre-exist his birth into this world as a sentient person. There is no scripture that states that, and if there is no scripture which states that, then what you are teaching saying that he pre-existed as a sentient person is false.

He came down from heaven in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, his body was formed in her womb. When he was born as an infant in the flesh, he was a living person or soul. His spirit was formed through his life of obedience to Word of God. The spirit is the “Me” to which he refers when he makes the statement “a body thou has prepared for me”.

In John 14 Jesus states: “He who has seen Me has seen the Father”

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

My question again was:

Why did JESUS, (not God), speak of a glory HE HIMSELF HAD before the creation of the world?

June 30, 2011 at 2:01 am#250375

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 30 2011,12:40)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2011,17:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 29 2011,16:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,10:59)

Irene……….Doe this mean anything to you……..1 John 3:2……> Beloved now are we the sons of God , and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Now tell me what part of that “SEPARATES US FROM Jesus' EXACT IDENTITY “. SO WHY ARE YOU TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES ALWAYS TRYING TO separate Jesus from our same Identity as a fellow human being ?

verse 3….> And every man the has this hope (IN) him purifies himself. even as he is pure

Think about it………………….gene

Hi Gene,
How are you? I haven't spent time on this thread but I came across this and wondered if you had seen it…

22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman ; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price ; do not become slaves of men.

Colossians 4:12 NAS
Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.

So if Christ is only a man, then why be Christ's slave if it says to not become slaves of men?

God bless,
Kathi

HMMM!

Very Good Kathi.

That looks like one of the “deity” verses for the Jesus is deity thread!

Blessings!

Keith

Thanks Keith, I agree!

Blessings,
Kathi

lightenup………We are slave of Christ because we were bought with a price, and Jesus Position is not the issue i am discussing . A Captain is in a higher position then a Sargent, when it come to position, but that does not make the Sargent any less a human being then the Captain. Jesus a Man has been given his new position over us but that has nothing to do with saying he is any different then us in his HUMAN IDENTITY. You are confusing the issues here . These false teacher move Jesus away from being a Human Being by there false teachings that is the point. IMO

peace and love………………………gene

June 30, 2011 at 2:02 am#250376

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ June 29 2011,19:39)

Mike,
I think that Jesus is still man and God. My point was that He was never JUST man like us.

Keith knows that an only begotten Son of God would not be a created angel…he is many steps ahead of you.

Kathi

Oh. So it is nothing but another case of “Exception for Jesus” then? Because if the same words are applied to anyone else in scripture, that person is NOT God. It is ONLY when those same words are applied to the SON OF God that they mean he IS God, right? :laugh:

“God/Man”! :laugh:

June 30, 2011 at 2:08 am#250377

Participant

Hi Mike:

You say: “Jesus could have had a soul prior to his birth into this world since God and angels have souls”. There is only “One God” and Men and angels are created beings”. The breath of God makes them living souls.

There is no scripture that states that Jesus had a soul prior to his birth into this world, and so, this is pure speculation on your part. So if he did have a soul prior to his birth, does he not have two souls? Ridiculous!

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 30, 2011 at 2:08 am#250378

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,19:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2011,10:36)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,09:59)

Think about it………………….gene

Gene,

If I've told you once, I've told you 100 times: The promise was never that Jesus was exactly like US. The promise is that we have a chance to be like HIM.

Mike….. right that is what you say but scripture say he was like us in every way. WE are even considered as Joint Heirs with Him. Face the truth Mike what you preexistence teach separates us all for Jesus and GOD work (IN) humanity. And if you say your are not doing that then you are simply lying to us all. Again it's you and your Separatist Doctrine that is the problem which you preexistences as well as you brother the trinitarians learned a long time ago from the Gnostic's in the time of Paul and John and totally has corrupted the true Church as it is today.

Gene,

I may be a novice like you say, but from the very first time I ever read the scriptures, it was abundantly clear that Jesus was NEVER “exactly like us”. So I will never claim that I'm not separating Jesus as something much higher than us, for he most certainly was and is.

And SOME OF US will be granted to become joint heirs with him. That will be a major step UP for us, Gene. Why UP? Because Jesus is so far above any of us that to come even close to being on par with him would be a major step UP for any of us.

Gene, address the point of my last post. Tell me if the promise was that Jesus was “exactly like us”, or if the promise is that SOME DAY, some of us can become more like HIM.

What is the hope, Gene?

June 30, 2011 at 2:09 am#250379

Participant

Quote (t8 @ June 30 2011,10:15)

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,07:27)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,01:44)

“Jacob have I Loved , Esau have I hated”, notice both are past tense statements,
this required a past association before they were ever physically born.

Hi Gene,

Does this statement mean that you believe we all pre-existed?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

What he is saying is that God knew us before he formed us. Therefore he hated Esau before he was formed in the womb.

Poor Esau, he didn't have a chance according to Genes doctrine.

T8……….It has nothing to do with my Doctrine it is what scripture Say . It is your doctrine that is disagreeing what what scripture say, not mine brother. Do i need to quote the whole thing from scripture for you in order for you to understand it? IMO

peace and love…………………………………gene

June 30, 2011 at 2:10 am#250380

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ June 29 2011,20:08)

Hi Mike:

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,

The soul and spirit is the part of Jesus that “came down from heaven”, remember? It was his pre-existent soul that was placed in a human body – hence the Word BECAME flesh.

Now PLEASE address my question. I've been patient beyond belief.

June 30, 2011 at 2:31 am#250382

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2011,13:10)

Quote (942767 @ June 29 2011,20:08)

Hi Mike:

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,

The soul and spirit is the part of Jesus that “came down from heaven”, remember? It was his pre-existent soul that was placed in a human body – hence the Word BECAME flesh.

Now PLEASE address my question. I've been patient beyond belief.

Hi Mike:

Jesus became a living soul when he was born into this world, a living person, and his spirit was formed as he learned to apply the Word of God in his daily life.

His body, soul, and spirit came down from heaven as it is written. Without adding or taking away from the scriptures through speculation

And to what question that I haven't answered are you referring?

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 30, 2011 at 4:09 am#250390

Blocked

Who's the one adding to scriptures? I don't remember scripture saying Jesus' “body, soul and spirit” came down from heaven, do you? I do remember someone applying this scripture to him: “A body you prepared for me”. Who is the “ME” that had a body prepared for him?

And the question is why JESUS, (not God who foreknew everything), would have referred to a glory HE HIMSELF HAD before the creation of the world.

June 30, 2011 at 2:11 pm#250436

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2011,13:10)

Quote (942767 @ June 29 2011,20:08)

Hi Mike:

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,

The soul and spirit is the part of Jesus that “came down from heaven”, remember? It was his pre-existent soul that was placed in a human body – hence the Word BECAME flesh.

Now PLEASE address my question. I've been patient beyond belief.

Mike………..I though you did not add your opinions to scriptures as you accuse others off all the time. Show us were any of this thing about Jesus having a soul in Heaven prior to his earth existence, is written , or is that also another Mike rendition of what he think it (should) say? Marty is right you are quite a speculator Mike, Produce the scriptures that back you up Mike.

peace and love………………gene

June 30, 2011 at 10:19 pm#250466

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 30 2011,13:09)

Quote (t8 @ June 30 2011,10:15)

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,07:27)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,01:44)

“Jacob have I Loved , Esau have I hated”, notice both are past tense statements,
this required a past association before they were ever physically born.

Hi Gene,

Does this statement mean that you believe we all pre-existed?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

What he is saying is that God knew us before he formed us. Therefore he hated Esau before he was formed in the womb.

Poor Esau, he didn't have a chance according to Genes doctrine.

peace and love…………………………………gene

It is your interpretation is leads to that understanding Gene, and not the scripture itself.
I guess you are unable to now look at things objectively as your bias against Christ's glory with the Father before the world begun shows itself again.

Like the Trinitarians, you start with your own doctrine and then fit scripture into it.
Yet I can read that scripture and not come to the conclusion that you have. Why? Because I am reading it for what it says, and am not forcing it into a template like yourself.

Romans 9:12
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Genesis 25:23
The LORD said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger.”

The above appears to be said before their birth, so it prophetic.
Then as proof that these words were true, Paul shows that God loved Jacob, but not Esau as history played out.

Romans 9:13
Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

So this actual verse is not a prophecy but an observation after the fact.
Below is the original source of the verse that Paul quotes:

Malachi 1:2 was not written before Esau and Jacob.
“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob;

This was written after the fact. You cannot say the above verse is a prophecy or what God thought before Esau was born.

But you can say from that:

Two peoples will be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other;
The older shall serve the younger.
You can't say that God hated Esau before he was born IMO.

July 1, 2011 at 2:35 pm#250567

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2011,15:09)

And the question is why JESUS, (not God who foreknew everything), would have referred to a glory HE HIMSELF HAD before the creation of the world.

Hi Mike:

Is Jesus “body, soul, and spirit”?

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 1, 2011 at 2:53 pm#250569

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2011,13:10)

Quote (942767 @ June 29 2011,20:08)

Hi Mike:

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,

The soul and spirit is the part of Jesus that “came down from heaven”, remember? It was his pre-existent soul that was placed in a human body – hence the Word BECAME flesh.

Now PLEASE address my question. I've been patient beyond belief.

Mike………So say you but not so much as ONE Scripture says what you are saying here. Show us were it say a living “Soul” came down from heaven Named Jesus. That is pure speculation, as are so many other of your renditions of what truth is. IMO

July 1, 2011 at 3:36 pm#250572

Participant

Quote (t8 @ July 01 2011,09:19)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 30 2011,13:09)

Quote (t8 @ June 30 2011,10:15)

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,07:27)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,01:44)

“Jacob have I Loved , Esau have I hated”, notice both are past tense statements,
this required a past association before they were ever physically born.

Hi Gene,

Does this statement mean that you believe we all pre-existed?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

What he is saying is that God knew us before he formed us. Therefore he hated Esau before he was formed in the womb.

Poor Esau, he didn't have a chance according to Genes doctrine.

peace and love…………………………………gene

Romans 9:12
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

The above appears to be said before their birth, so it prophetic.
Then as proof that these words were true, Paul shows that God loved Jacob, but not Esau as history played out.

Romans 9:13
Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

So this actual verse is not a prophecy but an observation after the fact.
Below is the original source of the verse that Paul quotes:

This was written after the fact. You cannot say the above verse is a prophecy or what God thought before Esau was born.

But you can say from that:

Two peoples will be separated from your body;

One people shall be stronger than the other;

The older shall serve the younger.

You can't say that God hated Esau before he was born IMO.

T8……….Your are not disagreeing with me but Paul said that not Gene. T8, we need to deal with this brother.

Rom 9:8…..> That is, they which are the childern of the flesh, these are (NOT) the childern of God: but the childern of the “PROMISE” are “counted” as the SEED. 9..> For this is the word of “promise”; At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

(notice) T8, GOD said He would come to Sarah and She would have a (SON) , now who came to Mary and What Son did She HAVE, JESUS right?, because God came to Sarah, Was Issac Morphed from Heaven into the Body of Sarah , did he preexist his berth as you preexistences and trinitarians believe (NO)!

Going on….verse 10…> And not only this ; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one even by our father Issac; 11…> For the childern being (not yet born), neither having done (ANY) good or evil, that the (purpose) of God according to (ELECTION) might stand, not of works, but of him that calls.; 12…> It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger. 13…> As it is written, “JACOB HAVE I LOVED (a past tense word) But Esau have I Hated (again a Past tense word). All past tense Phraseology , meaning (BEFORE) they were even BORN GOD KNOW THEM> so does that mean they preexisted as a being before their berth?. According to you preexistences and trinitarians reasonings that would mean they did “PREEXIST” Right?.

I am not even going to get into the rest of what Paul said concerning GOD making one vessel fitted for honor and another vessel he make a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction.

All of this shows God has Power and does create thing to meet his Purposes (HE) has in mind and brings them into existence at the proper time and that includes Jesus Just as He did Issac , both prophesied to come by and through a Women and Both came into existence at the time they were prophesied to. By the power and plan and will of GOD.

T8…. you preexistence and you brothers the trinitarians have changed all of that and alter the word of GOD to meet you dogmas brother. You refuse to even admit even this simple truth written plainly in scriptures. shame on you all. T8 you should not accuse other of doing exactly what you are doing brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

July 2, 2011 at 12:13 am#250600

Participant

Hi Mike:

The question you say is:

Quote

And the question is why JESUS, (not God who foreknew everything), would have referred to a glory HE HIMSELF HAD before the creation of the world.

God told him that he was foreordained, and about the glory that he had with him from the beginning.

Jesus refers to Psalm 110 here:

Quote

Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.

Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

And Psalm 110 states:

Quote

Psa 110:1 ¶ [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Psa 110:3 Thy people [shall be] willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill [the places] with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

Psa 110:7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

And there are many other scriptures in the OT such as Isaiah 9, 11, 53 for example. And this in the NT:

Quote

Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jhn 5:31 ¶ If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Jhn 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Jhn 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

Jhn 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

Jhn 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jhn 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jhn 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

Jhn 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Jhn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Jhn 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?

Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 2, 2011 at 1:45 am#250609