Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……..Lets not get caught up in stupid dialog brother about each other OK, that is what the rest of the preexistences and Trinitarians and ignorant men do.  Yes you do know my response but for other sake here it is.

Isa 44:23….> Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that (makes) all things; that stretches forth the heavens alone ; that spreads abroad the earth BY MYSELF.

Now T8, please explain that to us and how you understand it. To me ALONE and BY MYSELF means NO ONE WAS WITH HIM OR WAS DOING IT, BUT GOD ALONE, AND BY HIS SELF. T8 there are many scriptures that show God alone created every thing that exists. Even Paul said all thing were from GOD. God Started a NEW creation (IN) Jesus and this is the new creation that You are speaking about. It is through the Anointed LOGOS in Jesus that this creation has taken place and moves (through him) unto all man kind who have the LOGOS (IN) them Just as Jesus does. That (GOD) maybe (ALL) and ” IN ALL” and “THROUGH ALL” , what is so hard to understand about that T8 ?

What you trinitarians and Preexistences do is make Jesus the object and source of that process moving God the Father out of Jesus and Making Jesus another God Himself. That T8 is nothing more then Idolatry. Read 2 Thes 2 , and while you are not saying He was God you are still SEPARATING Jesus from our exact Identity and therefore are guilty of the same thing the Trinitarians are doing, rather you realize it or not brother IMO. I could give you many many many more scriptures and have in the past, but unless you concede some of this, what good would it do brother? Please think about this brother.

peace and love to you and yours………………T8

[Proclaimer]

Gene, you lack understanding. How is it that God created you through your parents if he created you alone?

Can not your understanding comprehend that it is still God creating you alone, even if he does it through your parents?

Have you not read that God created Eve through Adam?

Please explain why this truth contradicts your view of God creating alone.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ June 27 2011,10:19)

Gene, you lack understanding. How is it that God created you through your parents if he created you alone?

Hi Gene

When t8 can present a scripture that says God created anyone through his mother then he might have a point.

However there are plenty of scriptures that says God formed us in the womb which means the mother did nothing in procreation except have sex and go through lots of pain. But even the Lord said that was a result of her sin.

God is the one that created even the egg and sperm.

It is just another lame attempt at saying Jesus didn't create anything though the scriptures clearly teach he is the source of all things and without him not one thing came into being.  

WJ

[Proclaimer]

The point I was making WJ, is that God still creates us, even though we come from our mother. Who else created us?

Our mother is the channel so to speak. She is the one who we are created through.

I would have thought that you wouldn't need a scripture for that because it was self-evident.

Or maybe I got the wrong end of the stick with your post?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2011,10:21)

It is just another lame attempt at saying Jesus didn't create anything

Hi Keith,

Perhaps you could show us the scripture that says Jesus created anything at all?

Don't forget the common sense words of Tertullian:

He who makes is one and he through whom the thing is made is another.

God made.  Jesus, the one He did it through, is another.

Read the prayer in Acts 4, Keith.  It will tell you exactly who made the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them…………..INCLUDING God's Holy Servant Jesus.

peace,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ June 28 2011,09:21)

The point I was making WJ, is that God still creates us, even though we come from our mother. Who else created us? Our mother is the channel so to speak. She is the one who we are created through. I would have thought that you wouldn't need a scripture for that because it was self-evident. Or maybe I got the wrong end of the stick with your post?

T8……Saying God still creates us even thought it is thorugh a women needs explaining. That is right in this sense, God created the first Man and from there came all Physical human life , from Adam to present from one human to another human DNA is Passed on and from that DNA original DNA came all physical human life forms, it brings forth from its kind as all other living things do. God does not have to redo it every time a human is born , it was built in in the beginning as well as all other life forms. And in that sense we come from and through our human parents. That is not an individual creation we simple are extensions of Adam and Eve by mixing DNA from two parents so in that sense we came through our parents and ultimately through Adam. But the Spirits (intellects) are different they are directly created by GOD and come from Him. That is why God could say “Jacob have I Loved , Esau have I hated”, notice both are past tense statements, this required a past association before they were ever physically born.  So what we have is our Spirits are directly and individually created by GOD ALONE, But our Physical existence came through Adam. But Jesus was a Second ADAM a “NEW CREATION” of GOD who not only gave him a Physical New Body made by GOD alone but also an eternal abiding Spirit (IN) It. So you argument that God through Jesus made the physical Creation has a false premise .

Now analogize why you would even believe GOD crated anything “THROUGH” Jesus The CHRIST. Is it not that you and the rest of the Trinitarians and Preexistences are trying to make Jesus the Man more then what he really is. What is interesting is that Jesus himself NEVER took that position you people give HIM. Where did Jesus ever say He created ANYTHING OR God created ANYTHING THROUGH Him ?, SO Why should you say that if Jesus never did. Is it not to “SEPARATE” Jesus from us and our identity with him in likeness of him, can't you see this distorts the truth of God and His and Jesus words and works. God started a “NEW CREATION” and  Jesus was the Firstborn from this creation to that CREATION and ALL who Have His LOGOS abiding (IN) Them are also partakers of that Same “NEW CREATION” also. Paladin has presented it right brother. So Paul say “YOU ARE” a “NEW CREATION (IN) CHRIST JESUS. IMO

The difference between my understanding and Paladin is that I believe GOD and His Logos are one and the same thing and By the Logos which is SPIRIT (INTELLECT), GOD can indwell us too,  just as he did Jesus . I believe GOD was truly (IN) Jesus Just as He said he was,  “THE FATHER (IN) ME HE DOTH THE WORKS” I do not deny God Can and Has Spoken through many People in times past , including Jesus, But the Glory of GOD as the Only Creator of (ALL) things is never given to any man or ever will be.

This whole thing of “SEPARATING ” Jesus IDENTITY  From us is from  SATAN an ADVERSARIAL SPIRIT (INTELLECT)> It is against GOD and Jesus Both and against the truth of GOD also. IMO

We are more like Jesus in every way then most realize because of those false teachings of “SEPARATION” of His “IDENTITY” with us  that works to undermine what God has in Mind for all Human Creation. IMO

Think about it T8, come into the light of this truth and see how things clear up for you brother.

peace and love to you and yours T8………………………gene

[Pastry]

God is a creator, He has NOT stopped creating.  He keeps all alive by His power.  To think humans can, is limiting God.  Why do the tree.s for instance each year loose its leafs and in the Spring produces new.  There has to be higher being to recreate, who we call God.  Each day He makes the earth turn to have morning, Noon and night. Everything is so perfect.  Why don't the Stars fall from the sky?  Why don't the Tree's grow upside down?   On and on we could go what God does, He does not sit on His Throne and wrinkle the finger, or sleeps all day and night.

Jesus is not just a mere man, He is the Son of God…..He will also come back as THE WORD OF GOD

Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  
Is there another being that fits this description except Jesus, Gene?  Then prove it

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.  

The Word of God was WITH GOD.  TWO BEINGS AND NOT ONE.  AND THAT WORD WAS GOD.  God is a title…..In Ancient times many were called Gods.

To show you that Jesus is called God we have this Scripture

Hbr 1:8   But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.  

And then THE WORD OF GOD BECAME FLESH

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….Doe this mean anything to you……..1 John 3:2……> Beloved now are we the sons of God , and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Now tell me what part of that “SEPARATES US FROM Jesus' EXACT IDENTITY “. SO WHY ARE YOU TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES ALWAYS TRYING TO separate Jesus from our same Identity as a fellow human being ?

verse 3….> And every man the has this hope (IN) him purifies himself. even as he is pure

Think about it………………….gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,01:44)

“Jacob have I Loved , Esau have I hated”, notice both are past tense statements, this required a past association before they were ever physically born.

Hi Gene,

Does this statement mean that you believe we all pre-existed?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Pastry]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 30 2011,02:59)

Irene……….Doe this mean anything to you……..1 John 3:2……> Beloved now are we the sons of God , and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Now tell me what part of that “SEPARATES US FROM Jesus' EXACT IDENTITY “. SO WHY ARE YOU TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES ALWAYS TRYING TO separate Jesus from our same Identity as a fellow human being ? verse 3….> And every man the has this hope (IN) him purifies himself. even as he is pure Think about it………………….gene

Gene!  All you are doing is ignoring good Scriptures.  Jesus was never, never like us.   He was flesh like us and hurt like us, but that is how far it goes.   Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.  While we are the adopted Son's of God.  Too take that away from Jesus is dead wrong.  
And here yiou go again with your accusation that we are like the Truinitarians.  dead wrong too.

1Jo 3:2   Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.  

What makes you think that we even qualify to be Spirit beings.  There are going to be the Saints that will see God and Jesus, but those are the ones that gave their lives for Jesus.  Many…
The meek will inherit the Earth, and will be flesh and blood….they will not be able to see Jesus unless He will manifest Himself….. and that is questionable…

Besides when all is set and done Jesus will give the Kingdom back to God so God may be all in all.  What exactly that will be… Eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard prepared for them that love GOD….

There is no Scripture that tells us that Jesus was exactly  like us…
verse 3 are we not doing o now?  in order to have eternAL LIFE, WE SHOULD PURIFY OUR SELF.  But that has nothing to do with Jesus preexisting.  

But faith….

Eph 2:8   For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9   Not of works, lest any man should boast.  

Eph 2:10   For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Peace Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,10:59)

Irene……….Doe this mean anything to you……..1 John 3:2……> Beloved now are we the sons of God , and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Now tell me what part of that “SEPARATES US FROM Jesus' EXACT IDENTITY “. SO WHY ARE YOU TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES ALWAYS TRYING TO separate Jesus from our same Identity as a fellow human being ? verse 3….> And every man the has this hope (IN) him purifies himself. even as he is pure Think about it………………….gene

Hi Gene,
How are you?  I haven't spent time on this thread but I came across this and wondered if you had seen it…

22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman ; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price ; do not become slaves of men.

Colossians 4:12 NAS
Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.

So if Christ is only a man, then why be Christ's slave if it says to not become slaves of men?

God bless,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 29 2011,16:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,10:59) Irene……….Doe this mean anything to you……..1 John 3:2……> Beloved now are we the sons of God , and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Now tell me what part of that “SEPARATES US FROM Jesus' EXACT IDENTITY “. SO WHY ARE YOU TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES ALWAYS TRYING TO separate Jesus from our same Identity as a fellow human being ? verse 3….> And every man the has this hope (IN) him purifies himself. even as he is pure Think about it………………….gene Hi Gene, How are you?  I haven't spent time on this thread but I came across this and wondered if you had seen it… 22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman ; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price ; do not become slaves of men. Colossians 4:12 NAS Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God. So if Christ is only a man, then why be Christ's slave if it says to not become slaves of men? God bless, Kathi

HMMM!

Very Good Kathi.

That looks like one of the “deity” verses for the Jesus is deity thread!  

Blessings!

Keith

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,07:27)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,01:44) “Jacob have I Loved , Esau have I hated”, notice both are past tense statements, this required a past association before they were ever physically born.   Hi Gene, Does this statement mean that you believe we all pre-existed? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

What he is saying is that God knew us before he formed us. Therefore he hated Esau before he was formed in the womb.

Poor Esau, he didn't have a chance according to Genes doctrine.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,09:59)

Irene……….Doe this mean anything to you……..1 John 3:2……> Beloved now are we the sons of God , and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Now tell me what part of that “SEPARATES US FROM Jesus' EXACT IDENTITY “. SO WHY ARE YOU TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES ALWAYS TRYING TO separate Jesus from our same Identity as a fellow human being ? Think about it………………….gene

Gene,

If I've told you once, I've told you 100 times: The promise was never that Jesus was exactly like US. The promise is that we have a chance to be like HIM.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2011,16:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 29 2011,16:41) So if Christ is only a man, then why be Christ's slave if it says to not become slaves of men? God bless, Kathi HMMM! Very Good Kathi. That looks like one of the “deity” verses for the Jesus is deity thread!   Blessings! Keith

It's quite interesting watching the Trinitarian mind at work.

Kathi, I agree that Jesus is no longer a man, for a man consists of flesh and blood, which cannot enter into heaven.

But Keith, angels are also not “men”, yet I don't see you making a case for THEIR deity based on Kathi's post.  

[Lightenup]

Mike,
I think that Jesus is still man and God. My point was that He was never JUST man like us.

Keith knows that an only begotten Son of God would not be a created angel…he is many steps ahead of you.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2011,17:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 29 2011,16:41) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,10:59) Irene……….Doe this mean anything to you……..1 John 3:2……> Beloved now are we the sons of God , and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Now tell me what part of that “SEPARATES US FROM Jesus' EXACT IDENTITY “. SO WHY ARE YOU TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES ALWAYS TRYING TO separate Jesus from our same Identity as a fellow human being ? verse 3….> And every man the has this hope (IN) him purifies himself. even as he is pure Think about it………………….gene Hi Gene, How are you?  I haven't spent time on this thread but I came across this and wondered if you had seen it… 22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman ; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price ; do not become slaves of men. Colossians 4:12 NAS Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God. So if Christ is only a man, then why be Christ's slave if it says to not become slaves of men? God bless, Kathi HMMM! Very Good Kathi. That looks like one of the “deity” verses for the Jesus is deity thread!   Blessings! Keith

Thanks Keith, I agree!

Blessings,
Kathi

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,04:08)

Hi Marty, This discussion is better suited to the “What is a soul?” thread.  While the word “nephesh” is commonly used to refer to the entire human being, it is also clear that a “soul” is somthing other than the body.  Jesus said not to fear those who could ONLY kill the body and not the soul, but there are many other scriptures that make the distinction. So yes, Jesus could have had a soul before being made in the likeness of a human being, as God and the angels also have souls. Now, will you finally answer MY question?  I've capped and underlined it for emphasis in my last post.  Will you ever address it? mike

Hi Mike:

You said that he came down from heaven, and that is what he said, and so, I am just trying to determine just what you think that means.

There is definitely a distinction between the body and the soul. The body without the spirit is dead. The soul is the living person. An infant is a living soul or person with a mind, a will, and emotions. Adam and Eve were living souls in innocence before their fall.

The spirit is the life that a person lives.

Jesus said that the words that he was speaking were spirit and they were life.

Jesus was with the Father in heart of the Father from the beginning. He was foreordained, that is what the scriptures teach, 1 Peter 1. And the spirit, the Words that God was speaking to humanity through Jesus and that same Word that Jesus obeyed unto death on the cross was with God in the beginning. God knew what he would speak to humanity through him, and God knew that Jesus would obey him without sin unto death, and that through him He would reconcile all things unto Himself.

It really is not that difficult to understand. Jesus did not pre-exist his birth into this world as a sentient person. There is no scripture that states that, and if there is no scripture which states that, then what you are teaching saying that he pre-existed as a sentient person is false.

He came down from heaven in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, his body was formed in her womb. When he was born as an infant in the flesh, he was a living person or soul. His spirit was formed through his life of obedience to Word of God. The spirit is the “Me” to which he refers when he makes the statement “a body thou has prepared for me”.

In John 14 Jesus states: “He who has seen Me has seen the Father”

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2011,10:36)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2011,09:59) Irene……….Doe this mean anything to you……..1 John 3:2……> Beloved now are we the sons of God , and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Now tell me what part of that “SEPARATES US FROM Jesus' EXACT IDENTITY “. SO WHY ARE YOU TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES ALWAYS TRYING TO separate Jesus from our same Identity as a fellow human being ? Think about it………………….gene Gene, If I've told you once, I've told you 100 times:  The promise was never that Jesus was exactly like US.  The promise is that we have a chance to be like HIM.

Mike….. right that is what you say but scripture say he was like us in every way. WE are even considered as Joint Heirs with Him. Face the truth Mike what you preexistence teach separates us all for Jesus and GOD work (IN) humanity. And if you say your are not doing that then you are simply lying to us all. Again it's you and your Separatist Doctrine that is the problem which you preexistences as well as you brother the trinitarians learned a long time ago from the Gnostic's in the time of Paul and John and totally has corrupted the true Church as it is today.

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2011,14:15)

Marty was Christ made from dust like his father then his father was a man ,not God ,then he can not save anyone right ? but scriptures says that he was the first born of creation ,and so his father is God not man. he preexisted is birth as man. Mt 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. Lk 1:36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. Lk 1:37 For nothing is impossible with God.” Lk 1:40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. Lk 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Lk 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. Lk 2:26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. Lk 2:28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying: Lk 2:29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. Lk 2:30 For my eyes have seen your salvation, Lk 2:31 which you have prepared in the sight of all people, Lk 2:32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel.” Lk 2:48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.” Lk 2:49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” this is only a small part of it , Pierre

Hi Pierre:

You are not teaching me anything that I don't already know, but how does what the scriptures that you quote indicate that Jesus pre-existed his birth as a sentient person.

Of course, He is the Only man to be conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman.  He is the first man to be born of God of all of humanity or angels or anything else, period!

Love in Christ,
Marty

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