Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,17:37)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 17 2011,06:37) T8……..The Logos IS the very expression of GOD and His words are with him. If that is the case, then is it not possible in your thinking that the Logos was given birth or at some stage was WITH God? Because if that was possible, then God making everything through Christ as well as the Logos would make sense and you wouldn't have the difficulty of having to explain everything as an attribute of God and resort to the glory he had with God before the world as some kind of memory thingy.

T8……….Who said the Logos was given Berth,  where did you get that from?, the Logos existed with God and Was part of GOD before anything ever existed, it was By the Logos God spoke everything into creation. Jesus the Man on the other hand never existed until his berth on this earth as a flesh and blood living Soul the same as we are. No the Logos was not given Berth (IT) came to be (IN) Jesus the Son of Man, by the ANOINTING (CHRISTOS) . That anointing Jesus recieved was the LOGOS of GOD. This is the same with all Saints AS Paladin has prover over and over here as well as many others have. problem is You Preexistences and Trinitarians are so brain washed into believing Jesus preexisted his berth you can't understand it. You can't even understand Jesus' Glory was a predestined Glory and he never had in until he achieved it after his resurrection , even though it was preplanned by GOD from the foundation of the world.

Even all mankind has been predestined with that glory also, “FOR WHAT IS MAN THAT THOU HAS CONSIDERED HIM THOU HAS MADE HIM LOWER THE ANGELS FOR THE TASTING OF DEATH, BUT HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH (GLORY) AND (HONOR). Now tell us T8 if God HAS (a past tense word) “crowned man with glory and honor” , does that also mean we preexisted our berth on this earth, it would in your Gnostic, preexistence and trinitarian reasoning. IMO

peace and love to you brother…………………………..gene

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2011,15:12)

Quote (942767 @ June 20 2011,10:10) When Jesus said I came down from heaven, was he speaking of his body, soul, and spirit? Soul and spirit, Marty.  “A body you have prepared for me”.   Quote (942767 @ June 20 2011,10:10) And, I already explained to you how he, of course the person, said he had the glory.  It was a done deal No, you said he already had the glory FROM GOD'S POINT OF VIEW.  I agree that from the point of view of God, who can tell the end from the beginning, it was a “done deal” and could rightly be called the glory Jesus HAD – but only by God.   What I want to know is how, FROM JESUS' POINT OF VIEW, he ALREADY HAD glory before the creation of the world. You can dream of the glory YOU are predestined to have someday.  And from GOD'S POINT OF VIEW, you may have already HAD that glory.  But from YOUR OWN POINT OF VIEW, you would never refer to the glory you might SOMEDAY HAVE as glory you “HAD alongside God before the creation of the world”. peace, mike

Hi Mike:

And so, Jesus was speaking of his soul and his spirit when he said “I came down from heaven”?

Was Jesus a living soul when he was born as an infant into this world?

Quote

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

was Christ made from dust like his father then his father was a man ,not God ,then he can not save anyone right ?

but scriptures says that he was the first born of creation ,and so his father is God not man.

he preexisted is birth as man.

Mt 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about:

because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Lk 1:36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month.
Lk 1:37 For nothing is impossible with God.”

Lk 1:40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth.
Lk 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Lk 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
Lk 2:26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

Lk 2:28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
Lk 2:29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss your servant in peace.
Lk 2:30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
Lk 2:31 which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
Lk 2:32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel.”

Lk 2:48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”
Lk 2:49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”

this is only a small part of it ,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Hi Marty,

This discussion is better suited to the “What is a soul?” thread.  While the word “nephesh” is commonly used to refer to the entire human being, it is also clear that a “soul” is somthing other than the body.  Jesus said not to fear those who could ONLY kill the body and not the soul, but there are many other scriptures that make the distinction.

So yes, Jesus could have had a soul before being made in the likeness of a human being, as God and the angels also have souls.

Now, will you finally answer MY question?  I've capped and underlined it for emphasis in my last post.  Will you ever address it?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Good post and great points, Pierre!

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,11:10)

Good post and great points, Pierre!

thank you

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……….Why no answer to my post on page 87, hope you are rethinking your position on this point . The Logos was and is always with GOD the Father it is as much part of Him as your words are part of you and alway will be part of you. Now if the Spirit (intellect) that gives you those perceptions is in me them i will also percieve them the way you do, this holds true even with GOD the FATHER , he sent his perceptions (Logos) into our minds which enlightens us, just as He did Jesus and we all become one in thinking and then we begin to see things the same way the Father does. This is all done by the LOGOS of GOD the FATHER. This is how GOD the FATHER was (IN) Jesus it was by His “LOGOS”, Just as Paladin has shown us all. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 24 2011,00:36)

If that is the case, then is it not possible in your thinking that the Logos was given birth or at some stage was WITH God? Because if that was possible, then God making everything through Christ as well as the Logos would make sense and you wouldn't have the difficulty of having to explain everything as an attribute of God and resort to the glory he had with God before the world as some kind of memory thingy.[/quote] T8……….Who said the Logos was given Berth,  where did you get that from?, the Logos existed with God and Was part of GOD before anything ever existed, it was By the Logos God spoke everything into creation. Jesus the Man on the other hand never existed until his berth on this earth as a flesh and blood living Soul the same as we are. No the Logos was not given Berth (IT) came to be (IN) Jesus the Son of Man, by the ANOINTING (CHRISTOS) . That anointing Jesus recieved was the LOGOS of GOD. This is the same with all Saints AS Paladin has prover over and over here as well as many others have. problem is You Preexistences and Trinitarians are so brain washed into believing Jesus preexisted his berth you can't understand it. You can't even understand Jesus' Glory was a predestined Glory and he never had in until he achieved it after his resurrection , even though it was preplanned by GOD from the foundation of the world. Even all mankind has been predestined with that glory also, “FOR WHAT IS MAN THAT THOU HAS CONSIDERED HIM THOU HAS MADE HIM LOWER THE ANGELS FOR THE TASTING OF DEATH, BUT HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH (GLORY) AND (HONOR). Now tell us T8 if God HAS (a past tense word) “crowned man with glory and honor” , does that also mean we preexisted our berth on this earth, it would in your Gnostic, preexistence and trinitarian reasoning. IMO peace and love to you brother…………………………..gene

Gene.

It says that THE Word was WITH THE God.

It was with him.

Later the Word is identified as Christ.

And later again it says that God created all THROUGH Christ.

When you look at the big picture of all scriptures pertaining to the mystery of Christ, your view seems to contradict too many verses in scripture.

My quoted post from Justin Martyr shows that he at least viewed Christ as the son, wisdom, glory, and word of God as many also do today.

When you look at scriptures pertaining to the son, wisdom, glory, and word of God, you see many similarities and that is because they are all identified as Christ even if they were and still are attributes of God.

Whether you can understand it or not makes no difference. It is written and therefore we should accept that which is written and form our understanding from that.

It is also worth noting that Christ is a mystery to some degree, so there is no absolute revelation about him regards to his origins etc.

What we have are a handful of scriptures and I am not willing to disregard them as you appear to do.

[Proclaimer]

Look at the evidence.

The first to be WITH God

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Rena @ June 23 2011,20:41)

Just some information on Justin Martyr. This (what follows) is what put me off reading the Early Church Fathers. You'll see it get's worse and worse as time goes on as you read it… Taken from here: http://www.bible.ca/H-hell.htm 150 AD Justin Martyr: and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII) 150 AD Justin Martyr: For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII)

These quotes may or may not be true.

But I think I need to point out that he is definitely saying that the fire is everlasting.
And that the wicked will be placed in the fire.

But is he actually saying that the wicked will be alive in the fire forever in pain?

I don't see him saying that.

And we know from scripture that the wicked will be destroyed by the Lake of Fire.

I think these comments are more about the fire itself as opposed to the souls that placed in that fire.

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2011,01:52)

T8……….Why no answer to my post on page 87, hope you are rethinking your position on this point . The Logos was and is always with GOD the Father it is as much part of Him as your words are part of you and alway will be part of you. Now if the Spirit (intellect) that gives you those perceptions is in me them i will also percieve them the way you do, this holds true even with GOD the FATHER , he sent his perceptions (Logos) into our minds which enlightens us, just as He did Jesus and we all become one in thinking and then we begin to see things the same way the Father does. This is all done by the LOGOS of GOD the FATHER.  This is how GOD the FATHER was (IN) Jesus it was by His “LOGOS”, Just as Paladin has shown us all. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

Hi Gene,

2 Sam 23:2 The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Proclaimer]

I should add that yes it says everlasting punishment.

But what is the punishment that the wicked receive?

Destruction is the punishment.

Hence everlasting punishment is everlasting destruction.
Never to be give life again.

I don't see Justin Martyr teaching against this. Not in these quoted words of his at least.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ June 26 2011,16:28)

Whether you can understand it or not makes no difference. It is written and therefore we should accept that which is written and form our understanding from that.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ June 27 2011,09:28)

It says that THE Word was WITH THE God. It was with him. Later the Word is identified as Christ. And later again it says that God created all THROUGH Christ. When you look at the big picture of all scriptures pertaining to the mystery of Christ, your view seems to contradict too many verses in scripture.

T8……… It also says it (Logos was God) too. That is the problem you think CHRISTOS is the Man Jesus, when in fact it is not him, but the Anointing which was GOD the FATHER that was (IN) HIM. It was through this anointing that GOD came to be in the Flesh of Jesus Just as He does with us.

This LOGOS or SPIRIT of GOD is the common Denominator Jesus Spoke of when He said I (IN) You and YOU (IN) Me and GOD IN both Jesus and Us . God the Father and HIS LOGOS are one and the same thing, Just as you and your LOGOS are one and the same thing. Remember what scripture says “GOD WHO (SPOKE) TO US IN TIMES PAST HAS IN THESE LATTER DAYS (SPOKEN) TO US THROUGH A SON.This was accomplished by the LOGOS (IN) HIM.

That is to say the LOGOS, “who is and was”, “GOD the Father” was truly (IN) Jesus as Jesus said he was, and Jesus always gave Him the credit , But you preexistences steal the Glory of God and give it to the Man Jesus,  but God say he gives his glory to (NO) Man. and that includes Jesus also or anyone else. IMO

Think about it T8 and let go of all those Past doctrinal ties you have come to hold on to brother.

Peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ June 27 2011,09:58)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2011,01:52) T8……….Why no answer to my post on page 87, hope you are rethinking your position on this point . The Logos was and is always with GOD the Father it is as much part of Him as your words are part of you and alway will be part of you. Now if the Spirit (intellect) that gives you those perceptions is in me them i will also percieve them the way you do, this holds true even with GOD the FATHER , he sent his perceptions (Logos) into our minds which enlightens us, just as He did Jesus and we all become one in thinking and then we begin to see things the same way the Father does. This is all done by the LOGOS of GOD the FATHER.  This is how GOD the FATHER was (IN) Jesus it was by His “LOGOS”, Just as Paladin has shown us all. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene Hi Gene, 2 Sam 23:2 The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Bump for Gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Ed j……….Good point and it is the truth , GOD did SPEAK in times past (THROUGH) the Prophets, Just as He SPOKE Later (THROUGH) a Son JESUS, He also can and has at time Spoken THROUGH us also brother. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours Ed j………………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 26 2011,18:22)

That is the problem you thing CHRISTOS is the Man Jesus, when in fact it is not him, but the Anointing which was GOD the FATHER that was (IN) HIM.

Gene,

Could you post the source that tells you “christos” means “anointing” instead of “anointed one”?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2011,11:22)

T8……… It also says it (Logos was God) too.

Let's face it Gene, all things originate in God.
All attributes are from God.

And all that is external to God came from him originally.

So was God and then was WITH God.

I can accept both, but you cannot accept was WITH God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2011,11:45)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 26 2011,18:22) That is the problem you thing CHRISTOS is the Man Jesus, when in fact it is not him, but the Anointing which was GOD the FATHER that was (IN) HIM. Gene, Could you post the source that tells you “christos” means “anointing” instead of “anointed one”?

The thing is Gene, is you are always trying to close down any idea that God made all things through Jesus Christ when it is said multiple times in scripture in multiple ways.

You say Christ, but scripture says Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

The problem for you however, is that scripture says that God made all things through Wisdom, Logos, Christ, and we know that all these are identified as Jesus as well as being attributes of God.

But what if the scriptures also said that God made all things through the son, then surely you would need to concede because the word son is not an attribute of God, rather it is a word that can only mean offspring.

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

See God made all things THROUGH his offspring.

Let's see you dance around that one. Would you like me to embed an itune for you while you are at it?

Perhaps after this, you might want to try some sword dancing.
It is very tricky. You might like it.

PS I already know what answer you will give, and I think it is very lame. A poor excuse to get around the idea that God made all things through his son.

[terraricca]

T8

Quote

PS I already know what answer you will give, and I think it is very lame. A poor excuse to get around the idea that God made all things through his son.

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